15 top intercontinental destinations out of BRU

[Air Key West]

If EK comes to BRU they will not care about the market being able to support all 3 players, they will come with the intention of pushing the others out, which won't be that hard with their cost model and seeing the size of their operation beyond DXB.

You're absolutely right on this one. However, why aren't they coming then ? I assume the answer is : it's just a question of time.

[tolipanebas]

First of all, there is the schedule issue.
Any delay of codesharing Star TATL flights (due to strong Westerly winds) or cancellations on the connecting end and you risk spending the night at the connecting hub, if you're connecting at ORD, IAD or EWR.

Now let's turn it around.
On the return flight, miss the TATL flight -or see it cancelled- and you are stuck in DEN, whereas you have multiple options at the other airports; in other words: what could potentially be a slight advantage on the way up, turns not surprisingly into a slight disadvantage on the way back...

Then, there is the comfort issue. You said yourself that you don't want to spend 6 or 7 hours on a narrowbody flight to Africa. Most flights from IAD, EWR, ORD to the West Coast are 6+ hours narrowbody flight. From DEN, the West Coast is 2-3 hours away.

Good to see you finally agree with me that 6 hours on a narrowbody is not very comfortable, not even in cabins like the ones you like to post pictures of. Let's solve the comfort issue even more than you try to do through DEN, by going beyond DEN, shall we? (see next point):)

Then there is the revenue issue.
The longer the feeding trip, the less control you have over yields as your codeshare partner is likely to take a bigger and bigger chunk of the pie. And you have no choice but to work with it. Plus if your partner is also operating the same route, they will likely force the fares so high that pax will chose their flight over yours.

Indeed, so let's take it one step further, like I've said, shall we?
If you want to serve the west coast, then go to California, iso stopping short of it in Colorado.
Let's take SFO as a theoretical destination and compare it to DEN: as you can see, connections to popular cities on (or near) the west coast are much shorter through SFO than through DEN: http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=DEN- ... MAP-STYLE=

Then there is the regional destination issue.
If your destination is a regional airport on the West Coast or Central U.S., your best bet will be DEN. ORD does cover Northern Central well, but all the rest is not covered.

As I have shown above, metropolitan cities in the West of the USA are easier to cover through SFO and as you say yourself, ORD does a pretty good job at covering Central USA. DEN is in between those 2 big hubs and thus finds itself in between a rock and a hard place, hence it is a niche destination suitable for very large network carriers like BA or LH only: demand for flights from Denver, let alone say Bismarck, North Dakota or Amarillo, Texas to for instance Kinshasa or Yaounde is rather limited, you know?

if your departure point is that regional airport and there is a storm over ORD, your feeding regional flight will be the first to be bumped and you will miss your connection on the SN flight.

Storm Sandy isn't coming on a weekly basis and DEN isn't exactly risk free either.

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The bottom line to remember is that whereas DEN isn't completely insane for the simple reason it is an important STAR alliance hub and you could make any big hub work from BRU if you concentrate all of your US pax flows and focus your entire organisation on it, it clearly isn't such a brilliant nor easy-fit either.
In fact, there are far better choices amongst the well-established and much more popular STAR hubs in the USA which you can just plug into if you want to do what you want to do at DEN: SFO for the West US destinations, ORD for the central US destinations, both of which will see far higher numbers of O/D pax than DEN too, btw, hence you'll find those much higher on the list than a niche destination like DEN. What remains at DEN is a narrow strip of scarcely populated states where SN can not realistically expect much feed from for its rather limited network offered through BRU: SN is no LH or BA.

[LJ]

and nobody knows what's going to happen to TP (or do we know already ?).

We know for 100% certainty they won't leave Star anytime soon (as it's one of the requirements set by the Portugese governement that it must remain in Star and that the new owner may not dismantle LIS as a hub).

Running the risk of being called a dreamer once more, Panama (now we're back to Latin America) is booming, too. Few direct flights from Europe to PTY (IB, KL, anybody else ?). And PTY is a high yield destination. With Copa in *, there should be good connections to other Central American and Andean cities.

If Star will start a TATL service to PTY it will be LH and not SN doing this flight as they need more connections. Moreover, it's doubtful if PTY can sustain more than the current number of TATL flights.

If EK comes to BRU they will not care about the market being able to support all 3 players, they will come with the intention of pushing the others out, which won't be that hard with their cost model and seeing the size of their operation beyond DXB.

I disagree. Compared to QR and EY they don't have a cost advantage (moreover as the pockets of both QR and EY are probably much bigger). However, it would probably mean the end of TG at BRU as competitionj will be fierce.

You're absolutely right on this one. However, why aren't they coming then ? I assume the answer is : it's just a question of time.

If you follow the logic that they will only come to drive out a competitor out, you'll know why they aren't at BRU (EK doesn't intend to go to places where both EY and QR are, UK and ATH being the exception). It's not in EKs interest to compete with QR and EY as it drives down yields and it can better serve destinations where the competition is less (or protect their current business).

[RoMax]

and nobody knows what's going to happen to TP (or do we know already ?).

I believe a German investment group (partly?) owning Avianca/TACA won the competition for TAP, so they'll not leave Star.

[Air Key West]

Hi Tolipanebas ! You've got very valid points, too. This is the interesting thing about this forum : an exchange of ideas and being prepared to listen to others. My (personal) conclusion : there are pros and cons for both DEN and SFO. In terms of West US connections, I'm still tempted to believe DEN would be better. In terms of O&D, SFO would be better. SFO airport doesn't have the severe winter conditions DEN regularly faces. But there is more competition to SFO than to DEN. And true, there will be little BRU-DEN O&D traffic.

Now, slightly off topic, the question I asked about TAP's future in an earlier post made me curious. So, I did some research. Here are the results : the Portuguese government has received ONE offer from the Colombian-Brazilian millionair Germán Efromovich (Germán is the guy's first name, not his nationality). Together with his holding "Synergy", he owns 100 % of Avianca Brasil and 67 % of Aviance-Taca. Efromovich is said to have offered 1.5 billion euros to buy TAP, the largest share of which would be used to pay for the airline's debts and the Portuguese State would only pocket 20 millions. The Portuguese opposition parties and the eight trade unions representing TAP employees (from pilots to ground-handlers apparently) have aked the government to suspend the sale. The unions claim that the current right-wing government has never been willing to let them voice their concerns.
The Portuguese Council of Ministers is supposed to decide whether to accept the offer or not on
December 20.

[tolipanebas]

Hi Tolipanebas ! You've got very valid points, too.

Thank you.

My (personal) conclusion : there are pros and cons for both DEN and SFO. In terms of West US connections, I'm still tempted to believe DEN would be better. In terms of O&D, SFO would be better. SFO airport doesn't have the severe winter conditions DEN regularly faces. But there is more competition to SFO than to DEN. And true, there will be little BRU-DEN O&D traffic.

DEN is the ideal destination for an airline who wants to do a everything at once, yet can't do it all.
If you aren't in any alliance and you want to cover as much of the west of the US as possible anyway, then you could indeed think about DEN and work with Frontier to basically do what flanker proposed.

The nice thing about being in the transatlantic alliance A++ however is that SN could basically do better for the same effort, which in this case means it needn't content itself with offering just 1 destination like DEN, it can work more targetted through 2 hubs at once like for instance ORD and SFO, because if both UA and SN serve one destination each, SN needn't more metal for it and it can still get more people to their final destination more efficiently than through just DEN alone, all while offering 2 very popular O/D nonstop routes at the same time.

DEN is at its best if studied from a stand alone point of view, which is something which is recurrent in all of flanker's ideas, btw.

[Air Key West]

OO-ITR wrote :
"BRU and SN (LH Group and Star Alliance) want to connect the 15 largest destinations (in terms of number of pax) with BRU with a direct flight."

BrightCedars wrote :
"I remember seeing a link with the list of top destinations that have traffic to/from BRU but no direct link.

I think nowadays the top of the list is HKG! "

Hi Guys ! It's not that I don't believe you, but do you remember what your sources are ? Interesting information.

[fcw]

Note that they are talking about "DIRECT" and not "NON STOP" flights!

[superfly]

As i already said * will loose capacity to Brazil when TAM goes to oneworld and nobody knows what's going to happen to TP (or do we know already ?).

German Efromovich and his Synergy group have bought TP, although that's technically not possible as EU restrictions don't allow foreigners to own more than 49% of an EU airline. But I don't doubt a Colombian entrepeneur as skilled as himself minds to much. A bit of creative work and he'll come up with a solution as he has his eyes firmly fixed on the Brasilian market, where he believes he can replace TAM for STAR the day they leave. For the ones who missed it, Synergy controls AviancaTaca, Tampa Cargo, Avianca Brasil and a few smaller airlines in the region.

Running the risk of being called a dreamer once more, Panama (now we're back to Latin America) is booming, too. Few direct flights from Europe to PTY (IB, KL, anybody else ?). And PTY is a high yield destination. With Copa in *, there should be good connections to other Central American and Andean cities.

I might have to call you a dreamer indeed, but I'll happily share that dream if it helps.

[Flanker2]

DEN is the ideal destination for an airline who wants to do a everything at once, yet can't do it all.
If you aren't in any alliance and you want to cover as much of the west of the US as possible anyway, then you could indeed think about DEN and work with Frontier to basically do what flanker proposed.

The nice thing about being in the transatlantic alliance A++ however is that SN could basically do better for the same effort, which in this case means it needn't content itself with offering just 1 destination like DEN, it can work more targetted through 2 hubs at once like for instance ORD and SFO, because if both UA and SN serve one destination each, SN needn't more metal for it and it can still get more people to their final destination more efficiently than through just DEN alone, all while offering 2 very popular O/D nonstop routes at the same time.

That's the idea. SN is not in a position to afford doing one thing at a time. No budget, no power, no brand recognition, no room for error. And this will stay. Give me the name of another intercontinental airline in the world that has a city name as its main name. Brussels Airlines is and will stay a niche operator, and as such, it should keep operating niches and not try to play the game among the giants.

The problem with SFO, as I said, is that it's too small and it's already being overserved by AF, BA and others with B77W/B744/A380 during the peak moments. What could SN possibly fly there for?
From the airline point of view:
-O&D is way too weak except for a few peaks during holidays.
-Competition for the low yield pax is very strong. Even if SN can attract those, this is on the other side of the continent from JFK, meaning that the higher cost of operating A332 all the way can not be offset easily.
-There isn't always a taker for a cheap ticket to SFO, unlike JFK or DEN.

From the pax point of view:
-Being stuck on the airplane for 12 hours, arriving at SFO and having to take another 1 hour RJ flight to LAX? It's much better to take a 10 hour flight, stretch the legs and fly another 3 hours on A320.
-SFO is well-positioned if your destination is right on the coast or if your flight comes from Asia and you need to go more East. Otherwise you will lose time and the airline will spend excess seat miles taking you there.
-Immigration is much faster at DEN. If you arrive right after an A380 arrived at SFO, have fun and enjoy the long wait. The older people will especially love it and remember, no smartphones for the youngies.

What business does SN have operating ORD?
-UA is already there in a very major capacity. I don't think that UA would be happy feeding SN flights in ORD, they will prefer to feed their own flights and feeding is already tight as it is. So SN can pretty much forget connecting anything else but ORD through ORD.
-ORD is again no JFK, both O&D and connecting traffic-wise, but still safer than SFO, given shorter distance and larger market.
-A large African community and quite some businesses but the leisure market is much thinner, so there won't always be a taker for a cheap flight to ORD.
-All in all, some Africa pax, some leisure pax, some business pax, but I only see red colour.

Like has been said numerous times, the A++ JV may seem like an umbrella but it's not that easy. SN got away with JFK because UA isn't flying there from BRU, but would UA be happy seeing SN at ORD? I don't think so.


It seems to me that SN is going to waste another 3 years to starting useless ventures. Playing with fire, losing another ton of money and asking its staff and the government for another bail-out.

And if SN's top want to follow their instincts blindly, that's their right and they should do that. As an advocate of entrepreneurship, I would more than love to be proven wrong.

In the meanwhile EK and TK are going to take control of Asia-Africa traffic, which is where the money is. China is investing heavily in Africa.

If I were SN, I would add another daily connection to DEN and stop wasting my time in North America.
The transatlantic (at least the Northern part of it), as others people already said, is a market that's tapped out, there's nothing left in it but crumbles like DEN. By crumbles, I mean small destinations where you could operate without making a lot of money and in SN's case, combine it with other reasons to fly there.

SO yes, that's why you've got to try to do everything in one, and SFO, ORD or BOS can't fulfill that goal, neither as one, nor combined together.


Panama sounds great as a leisure destination. There could be some business too, given the port connection between the canal and the port of Antwerp.

BTW Tolipanebas, ORD and all Northern cities is a misery in the summer with all the thunderstorms. If you haven't been there, you don't know what it is. Until now about 50% of times I connected somewhere in the US after a TATL flight, I ended up in a hotel provided by the airline...

I found some litterature for you:
http://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g3580 ... elers.html

It is a well-proven fact with many airports, not just O'Hare, that the earlier in the day you travel, the better. Not only are airports less congested in the morning (after the 6-7AM departure rush), but weather systems typically form and hit later in the day. This is especially true in the summer when thunderstorms form with the afternoon heating. For more information on the best and worst times to fly into airports, visit www.avoiddelays.com The worst time to fly through O'Hare, as listed on avoid delays.com, is from 7-9PM.

Delays from throughout the day start to pile up at 3PM at O'Hare. 3-5PM is also the time of day when O'Hare is at its busiest. Runway jams occur (lines of planes awaiting a takeoff or parking) Delays from this busy time of day ripple throughout the evening, making any time after 3PM most prone to delays. (That's why 7-9PM is the worst time to fly to O'Hare)

[Inquirer]

Give me the name of another intercontinental airline in the world that has a city name as its main name.

Not to make you look silly or anything, but Singapore Airlines, maybe?

[RoMax]

Give me the name of another intercontinental airline in the world that has a city name as its main name.

Not to make you look silly or anything, but Singapore Airlines, maybe?

Indeed, and here we go again. When they needed a new name for a new airline. Sabena felt wrong under the passengers and the ex-Sabeniens, so no Sabena. Than they started to search for the strongest brands related to Belgium. Brussels came out as the most known over the whole world, way better known as Belgium for example.
It's as simple as that.

[fcw]

Indeed, and here we go again. When they needed a new name for a new airline. Sabena felt wrong under the passengers and the ex-Sabeniens, so no Sabena. Than they started to search for the strongest brands related to Belgium. Brussels came out as the most known over the whole world, way better known as Belgium for example.
It's as simple as that.

Do you have any idea about the value of a brand? For info: the brand easyJet is valued around 500 mio €!
Sabena was a strong brand, removing the S from the tail (as in the call sign) was a bad move. After 10 years in Africa, the only market in which BruAir is not loosing money, people still talk about "la Sabena" and not about "BruAir"...
The fact that the airline is on the edge of bankruptcy despite heavy subsidising and money injections from LH proves that it is not a strong brand.
About the former Sabeniens, I think that ID-tickets in exchange of all the money BruAir took from Sabena would have paid the bill.

[Air Key West]

German Efromovich and his Synergy group have bought TP, although that's technically not possible as EU restrictions don't allow foreigners to own more than 49% of an EU airline.

No, Efromovich has not, yet, bought TP. He has made an offer and the Portugese government will make a decision on December 20. There you are wrong, but you are right in saying that a non EU investor cannot own more than 49% of an EU airline. It might not be a problem for Efromovich, but how is the Portuguese government going to circumvent EU legislation ?

[

Panama sounds great as a leisure destination. There could be some business too, given the port connection between the canal and the port of Antwerp.

Panama is both a leisure and business destination. You can win on both fronts. Panama, like Brazil, is booming. Probably good and many connections with * partner Copa at PTY. Copa is not a minor player in Latin-America.

Running the risk of being called a dreamer once more, Panama (now we're back to Latin America) is booming, too. Few direct flights from Europe to PTY (IB, KL, anybody else ?). And PTY is a high yield destination. With Copa in *, there should be good connections to other Central American and Andean cities.

I might have to call you a dreamer indeed, but I'll happily share that dream if it helps.

Apparently, nobody on this forum (nor at b.air) is taking Latin America seriously. Too bad. There is a lot of money (Efromovitch can afford to buy a European airline) and potential (Brazil and Panama have economic growth figures the EU can only dream of).

Most people (including b.air) seem to prefer to concentrate on expanding to low yield markets like North America, when Latin America has still reasonable yields. B.Air needs to diversify its long-haul network if it wants to survive (but will LH agree ?). Developing the African network is fine. But don't forget that if Africa is your only source of "real" revenue, you also depend on a market/continent known for political instability, wars, coups, whims of Presidents and ministers (Senegal recently) and so on, which can disrupt and have disrupted b.air's activities more than once in its short existence.

On the contrary, Latin America has stabilised politically, but too many people still think of it as a continent of banana republics. Please, enter the 21st century.

[Flanker2]

Give me the name of another intercontinental airline in the world that has a city name as its main name.

Not to make you look silly or anything, but Singapore Airlines, maybe?

Indeed, and here we go again. When they needed a new name for a new airline. Sabena felt wrong under the passengers and the ex-Sabeniens, so no Sabena. Than they started to search for the strongest brands related to Belgium. Brussels came out as the most known over the whole world, way better known as Belgium for example.
It's as simple as that.

Indeed what?
Singapore is ... a country.
Sometimes I wonder.

All that people living outside Europe know about Brussels, is that Brussels sprouts come from there. And that there are some very boring political institutions over there that no one cares about.
Comparing the names Brussels and Belgium is like comparing two names of brands that you would only find at Aldi and that no one knows about. Brussels Airlines is a name for a regional/domestic airline, the same way New York Airlines or Los Angeles Airlines or Tokyo Airlines would be.

So nothing wrong with developing niche markets and strenghtening their brands in them, but when that name pops up in the middle of a search for travel to giant hubs, it kinds of look like a second tier airline with no real world connections and that doesn't sound reliable.

[Air Key West]

Flanker2 wrote:
Give me the name of another intercontinental airline in the world that has a city name as its main name.

Not to make you look silly or anything, but Singapore Airlines, maybe?

Give me the name of another intercontinental airline in the world that has a city name as its main name.

Not to make you look silly or anything, but Singapore Airlines, maybe?

Well, at best, SIngapore can be called a city-state, but it is more a state than a city. Singapore is made up of 63 islands, including the main island widely know as Singapore Island. The official name of Singapore is the Republic of Singapore.

As to brand recognition, if you cannot get free advertising from putting France, British or Swiss in your airline's name and attract customers on the positive perception people have of a specific country, and you call yourself after little know country or city (let's not fool ourselves, Brussels and Belgium, if not unknown worldwide, are not as widely known as Belgian tend to think) you have to offer cheaper fares to attract customers who would prefer to fly an airline with a prestigeous name and you have to be at least as good, preferably better than your competitors, to retain those same customers. A difficult mix, but not impossible.

I still meet people who say : I'm flying Sabena, probably because the same two-letter-code (SN) has been kept. But just as the Swiss decided to change Swissair to Swiss (or Swiss International AirLines), I'm still convinced it would have been better to change Sabena to Sabena European Airlines, for instance.

[Air Key West]

there are some very boring political institutions over there that no one cares about.

People are increasinlgy caring about these instituions, but in a negative way. The media often say Brussels (=EU) has decided this, Brussels (=EU) has decided that, and most of the time people don't like these decisions in the current economic and budgetary climate.
In addition, Brussels is becoming one of the most dangerous cities in Europe. I've heard someone referring to Brussels as the European Chicago. Not very flattering. Not (or no longer) very flattering for Brussels Airlines.

In spite of all that, I think Brussels as an excellent airport (BRU) from the pax point of view.

Ok, I am (and we are) getting off topic, but that's not unusual in a discussion.

[andorra-airport]

Give me the name of another intercontinental airline in the world that has a city name as its main name.

Air Berlin
Shanghai Airlines (they fly to Australia)
TAM , the M is from Marília , near Sao Paulo.
Vladivostok Air

And I guess some more.

[Inquirer]

Singapore is ... a country.
Sometimes I wonder.

Singapore is very much a city, sir, and as that city became independent, the nation it became also took the name of its only city. The name Singapore has been used long before the city became an independent nation and in fact even the airline that preceded today's Singapore Airlines referred to Singapore, long before that was an independent country even, so Singapore Airlines is named after a city, just like Brussels Airlines, like it or not.

So yes indeed, you need to wonder! Because much of what you have presented here so far as rock solid arguments have been shown to be half true facts and/or very weak points. The rather silly example of 'Singapore' just being the latest yet also most remarkable slip of mind. It's okay to have an opinion, but at least base it on unquestionable facts and data iso self-invented truths like you do. Thank you.

[travellover]

EY Etihad Airways "UAE State and city of Abu Dhabi"
KU Kuwait Airways "State and city"
LG Luxair "State and city"
VP VASP ("Viação Aérea São Paulo" was an intercontinental airline)

Not intercontinental but important :

PG Bangkok Airways, HAY Hamburg Airways.

Others for information :

TLE Air Toulouse,MSC Air Cairo,6T* Almaty Aviation,WD Amsterdam Airlines
,DUB Dubai Air Wing,FZ Flydubai,KAJ Karthago Airlines,5V Lviv Airlines,TF Malmo Aviation,RL Royal Phnom Penh Airways,E3 Domodedovo Airlines,VTK Vostok Airlines.

In Greater China :

NX Air Macau,JD Beijing Capital Airlines,HX Hong Kong Airlines,UO Hong Kong Express,KY Kunming Airlines,SC Shandong Airlines ,FM Shanghai Airlines,ZH Shenzhen Airlines,EPA Shenzhen,Donghai Airlines,NX Air Macau,GS Tianjin Airlines,ZG Viva Macau,CWU Wuhan Air Lines,MF Xiamen Airlines,CWU Wuhan Air Lines,YE Yanda Airlines ,HK Yangon Airways.

AirBerlin of course!
Brussels Airlines is not a fancy name, I agree !