700 jobs threatened at Brussels Airlines?

[Pocahontas]

I hope the unions will also think at other pilots than the 55+, I hope to keep my job and I am more than willing to work at 85% for 1 year. Who is gonna pay your loans if you end up without a job? Ever thought of that, most of you didn't that is clear.

[fcw]

I hope the unions will also think at other pilots than the 55+, I hope to keep my job and I am more than willing to work at 85% for 1 year. Who is gonna pay your loans if you end up without a job? Ever thought of that, most of you didn't that is clear.

Poca, this will not be for one year!
Now you are asked for a salary cut otherwise LH won't save BruAIr.
Next year you will be told that expansion is only possible if you are willing to accept a productivity increase without going back to your old salary.

[Pocahontas]

At least I'd have a job in Belgium in stead of taking my family with me to the zandbak. But hey, nobody tells you to stay if you're not happy. I repeat: You'd be surprised if you do a referendum amongst pilots...

[RoMax]

At least I'd have a job in Belgium in stead of taking my family with me to the zandbak. But hey, nobody tells you to stay if you're not happy. I repeat: You'd be surprised if you do a referendum amongst pilots...

:clap:

To some other members, everybody has to give in. Look around you, the whole economy is having HUGE difficulties. Each month thousands of people hear they'll loose their job while they have children and bills to pay. Even more people will earn extremely less than they did in the past, yes, not nice, but the majority of these people are happy they even have a job. The people of Ford Genk agreed to save 12% on their salary if they got the guarantees they could keep their jobs, they were not happy, but at least they still had a job, well it was not enough for Ford, and they all lost their job... That's daily reality these days. Please be reasonable and accept that you'll earn less in the comming years while working the same or even more and stop thinking that you are the only people that suffer. Some time ago SN fired 12 people of the financial department, in other departments people started to work less, and they are still looking at several departments where they can save money... So no, it's not just you guys. And of course these difficulties weren't caused by you, but saying you don't want to give in too much to resolve the problems is enormously naive... Either everyone helps, or certain people will loose their job. If you are not one of them, lucky for you, if you are one of them: good luck finding a new job and paying the bills for your family.

[B.Inventive]

And Then you hear the story of how our flight dispatchers are still in a 'cadre' statute, WITH company cars, WITH unlimited fuel cards.... true they work nights but let's not fool ourselves.... this f.e. is really annoying to hear.
I'm pretty sure mr. Gustin is not giving in either.

But honestly THAT IS NOT MY POINT.
Today they say 2 years part time, at full time production
in 1 year they will come and cry AGAIN because AGAIN they underestimated SOME factor... so sorry guys, it'll be part time pay for full time work for a few more years....
funnily enough the current estimations for next years have been prepared using the fuel prices of THIS year, so they didn't even consider the possible increase of fuel prices... see where this is going?????

And just to confirm, we ARE accepting the fact that there is a crisis going on so we are accepting to be more productive. I've always said, I would love to work a little more but simply DO NOT TOUCH my compensation for this. Taking away our compensation as if we are over paid to start with is telling us you do not respect us.
the respect is gone...

[Pocahontas]

Pretty soon the jobs too. Wonder what you would say if they said ok, we keep the same conditions but we get rid off 100 pilots. What if you were amongst them? Easy to be unwilling to budge an inch if you won't loose your job.

[shockcooling]

common pocahontas, our company hates that we're too expensive. Thats why they are asking from the pilot community just so much, compared to the saving to be found from different departements! It's that easy

[JAF737]

Of course this is a sad situation for everybody, however, your "full time production" is still ridiculous compared to some other "private" airlines. Estimate yourself happy to have the conditions you have. Even with the little effort you will have to do, you will still be below the average production of other airlines based in Belgium...

Ryanair is still looking for B737 captains I think. Interested? No? Strange...why not? Perhaps you realize there is much worse in some other gardens...

This doesn't mean I would be happy in such a situation, but hey, it's Belgium in 2012...

[Pocahontas]

@shockcooling: Can you tell me what effort the other departments are doing? Facts and figures, no rumors please!
And yes, let us compare our FD/DT with other companies (also facts and figures), if they are that bad (already), than I understand the fuzz.
We get the chance to keep everybody on board, but apparently some of us think their personal situation is more important, leading to a known outcome for sure.

[shockcooling]

Pretty soon the jobs too. Wonder what you would say if they said ok, we keep the same conditions but we get rid off 100 pilots. What if you were amongst them? Easy to be unwilling to budge an inch if you won't loose your job.

We get the chance to keep everybody on board, but apparently some of us think their personal situation is more important, leading to a known outcome for sure.

Pocahontas, we might have a couple of guys with a wrong TR in the near future. And this is even with the proposed plan! Easy not to budge for them, right...

[B.Inventive]

JAF737, if you want to see ridiculous go check out the current belgian guys at DHL, that's ridiculous, or f.e. Lufthansa, doing a FRA-SIN-FRA flight, 48 hours layover in SIN followed by 144 hours of rest... and Gustin says B.air is not productive... rriiiggghhhtttt....

[fcw]

As BruAir is desperate for money a salary cut is the only solution.
The only fair system is a progressive salary cut for all employees.
eg.: if you earn 1000€/ month you loose 30€ (3%)
if you earn 2000 you loose 80 (3% on the first 1000 and 5% on the second 1000)
if you earn 3000 you loose 150 (3% on 1000 + 5% on 1000-2000 + 7% on 2000-3000)
...

[Pocahontas]

Are you taking about the 737 pilots now? They have been promised a cockpit seat if I'm not mistaking... Or should they get a TR Airbus, and again get priority over other people much higher on the seniority list? If this happens again, then explain me the use of a CSL? Avro is a phase out too so what about those pilots, which are too many?

[papysn]

Always the same story....

Be happy with what you have,they want to cut your salary,they want you to be more flexible or to come to work in short... don't discuss anything,it's crisis time,just say thank you....
It's not the faut of a bad management it's bad luck, you can still be happy, some chinese workers only have a bowl of rice at the end of month...
You can be as flexible as you want (you've seen that with ford genk)it's a question of big money,a question of good or bad mangement ,a question of proactivity at high level with an objective further than the next quarterly results.

F.E:SN is expected the oil price to stay the same for next year, as it's the highest risk on their book don't you think they should try to controle it ????

[Flanker]

Well there is a solution.

In Belgium you are allowed to give up to 10% of your total staff costs as shares (limited by 20% of annual profit, but this last rule can be circumvented).

Basically what it means is that the salary cut is compensated for by the issue of new shares to the employees, at an acceptable value per share.

Merits:
-Employees become part-owners, hence will not mind increased productivity, as long as it is part of a plan that translates into profit down the line,
-Employees will reach a minority stake, which means that they can be represented at the board and top management level,
-The tax rate is 15% on such transactions, no costs to the employer (but the issue of the shares).

This means that the company can reduce staff costs by 14% (10% limit + 4% social security employer contribution), without the staff losing anything, but being paid 10% of their gross salary in shares of the company. Notice that this 10% loss is in terms of gross salary, in terms of nett salary it will be only 5-8%, depending on how much income taxes you pay.
So in absolute terms, this will result in a slight salary increase!

Plus the staff will be much more motivated, knowing that they are co-owners of the company and will start coming up with great idea's and coming back to work with a smile. It will make unions useless as the employees will be represented at a different, much higher and more meaningful level.

[EK380]

Flanker,

Great idea but only if these shares will ever be worth something... Sorry but serious doubts about that one.

[BrusselsAirlines]

Of course this is a sad situation for everybody, however, your "full time production" is still ridiculous compared to some other "private" airlines. Estimate yourself happy to have the conditions you have. Even with the little effort you will have to do, you will still be below the average production of other airlines based in Belgium...

Ryanair is still looking for B737 captains I think. Interested? No? Strange...why not? Perhaps you realize there is much worse in some other gardens...

This doesn't mean I would be happy in such a situation, but hey, it's Belgium in 2012...

If you stay in the same hotel as your pax for the same week than you are veeeery productive

I will be pretty close to my 1000 hrs / yr by the end of the year so I think we perform adequatly on medium haul. I have seen people trying to go to FR asap but the 737 classic TR apparently posed to be a problem. Maybe a good option for JAF pilots?? I guess the charter market will also get its share of economic troubles. One thing that will go for next year on out budget list

Btw; how is JAF going to compensate for the higher lease prices with the fleet renewal as you all seem to be at max legal performance...maybe compete with EasyJet or FR or why not...Thai? Nevertheless very cool to see ambition in present times. Just hope all the big investments will turn out OK and are based on the current economical situation 2013-2014.

[Pocahontas]

Unions gave their final proposal to the management. This will most certainly not result in an agreement. Unions are strongly defending 55+ pilots, even those who would receive their full pension. We got the opportunity to keep everybody's job, now a lot will end up without. As I said before, Union representatives will not loose their jobs, so easy not to budge an inch.
Deja vue!

[airazurxtror]

It's always the same, in all companies : the young employees want to get rid of the old ones, in order to make place for them. A time-honoured custom.
The young people will, in due course, become old and have the same trick played on them, much to their indignation ...

[Boeing767copilot]

Is there any news about meeting today between the unions and SN management?