700 jobs threatened at Brussels Airlines?

[RoMax]

I'm not happy either with SN's service (and prices) on their Eurpean network. But I wonder if it will make such a big difference if they'll offer a better service?! KLM, LH, AF, BA, IB, AZ, TP, AY, ... are all losing money on their European network, IF they make any profit at all (on their overall operations) it's thanks to long haul. Several of these airlines are turning to LCC (Finnair, Iberia, Air France, Lufthansa,...) for a large part of their EU operation.

I don't believe a better service or a better pricing strategy (it already changed, now it's much easier to find cheap tickets than let's say 2 years ago, at least, that's my experience) is THE solution for SN in Europe... LCC's and overall high competition in Europe ruined the market for almost everyone.

But again, I'm not a fan of their EU product either...no wonder I decided to take Wizzair out of EIN to visit Warsaw next month instead of SN.

[Passenger]

Instead you get ... an old hostess who's watching you to make sure that you're not looking at her behind every time she kneels to take something out of the food cart.

Once more, this proofs that your knowledge comes from Google, Microsoft Flight Simulator 3.1 and other aviation forums. But real flight experience? No sir, except for your annual trip to Malaga with mammy and daddy.

When I see an “old” hostess when I’m boarding (specially for long haul -> night flights), I feel extremely relieved: “if something serious would happen, she will surely not panic and she will know what to do”. But because the safety aspect has never gone through your mind, I apologise in your name to -your words- all old hostesses with/without a behind”.

[Flanker]

Altruism is what it takes to help other people before yourself when hell breaks loose and it's definitely not a quality that improves with age. Young people have better skills to adapt to a new, bad situation/environment, while older people tend to freeze, waste time finding a similar event in the "experience" directory in their brain and when they don't find it, they revert to survival and preservation mode of their own interests.
When the situation is not serious, older people tend to manage much better but that is not when you need them.

[SNam]

So the Are Lingus example is not a bad idea, get rid of the three classes, let the passengers pay a fee for the luggage and let them pay for the food and drinks. You will probably lose some passengers but they may gain some more pax as well.

I don't know how stable Aer Lingus is financially but they seem to be okay.

On the other hand this may cause that SN loses "prestige" and i guess that is not what some former SABENA staff/management wants.

Regards,

[JAF737]

Instead you get ... an old hostess who's watching you to make sure that you're not looking at her behind every time she kneels to take something out of the food cart.

Once more, this proofs that your knowledge comes from Google, Microsoft Flight Simulator 3.1 and other aviation forums. But real flight experience? No sir, except for your annual trip to Malaga with mammy and daddy.

When I see an “old” hostess when I’m boarding (specially for long haul -> night flights), I feel extremely relieved: “if something serious would happen, she will surely not panic and she will know what to do”. But because the safety aspect has never gone through your mind, I apologise in your name to -your words- all old hostesses with/without a behind”.

Passenger...your comment is so ridiculous...you dare to blame someone saying what he thinks. But, frankly, by reading your regular posts on this forum, you are probably the only one flying with mum and dad to Malaga. You're completely out of the real world of aviation.

And by the way, Flanker is totally right.

[sean1982]

Instead you get ... an old hostess who's watching you to make sure that you're not looking at her behind every time she kneels to take something out of the food cart.

Once more, this proofs that your knowledge comes from Google, Microsoft Flight Simulator 3.1 and other aviation forums. But real flight experience? No sir, except for your annual trip to Malaga with mammy and daddy.

When I see an “old” hostess when I’m boarding (specially for long haul -> night flights), I feel extremely relieved: “if something serious would happen, she will surely not panic and she will know what to do”. But because the safety aspect has never gone through your mind, I apologise in your name to -your words- all old hostesses with/without a behind”.

Passenger...your comment is so ridiculous...you dare to blame someone saying what he thinks. But, frankly, by reading your regular posts on this forum, you are probably the only one flying with mum and dad to Malaga. You're completely out of the real world of aviation.

And by the way, Flanker is totally right.

Hear hear

[C-46commando]

Altruism is what it takes to help other people before yourself when hell breaks loose and it's definitely not a quality that improves with age. Young people have better skills to adapt to a new, bad situation/environment, while older people tend to freeze, waste time finding a similar event in the "experience" directory in their brain and when they don't find it, they revert to survival and preservation mode of their own interests.
When the situation is not serious, older people tend to manage much better but that is not when you need them.

Sooooooooo should we retire all pilots before the age 40 cause if they are any older they wouldn't be able to handle an emergency?

[Passenger]

Passenger...your comment is so ridiculous...you dare to blame someone saying what he thinks.

No sir: his derogatory remark about "old" Brussels Airlines stewardesses is not freedom of speech: that's pubertal behaviour that gives me vicarious shame (plaatsvervangende schaamte).

But, frankly, by reading your regular posts on this forum, you are probably the only one flying with mum and dad to Malaga.

Contrary to most people here, I'm not an employer from an airline, so I don't feel the need to bash a competition airline - which is a recurring fact in most posts here. And actually, I've obtained my theoretical PPL some 32 years ago, so I do know the basic principles of flying, thank you.

[Inquirer]

The best solution to achieve both was to offer a top notch business class product and high frequencies using an entire fleet of Q400's.

Excuse me asking, but just what kind of a top notch product do you think you can offer on such a little prop?

Bus boarding in the rain?
No hand luggage nor coat hanger?
Cramped, noisy cabin?
Turbulent low level flights?
Mini toilet in the wobbly back?

Seriously, I have been on more than enough Q400 flights to know it is a very nice little plane, but it is definitely NOT the platform for the kind of luxury service you have in mind, provided there is still a market for it at all even, so that idea of yours is just no realistic alternative.

From my own experience as a frequent flyer (more than 100 flights per year on average), I ca say that THE model to go for is nor that of a ryanair not that of some Singapore airlines on short haul: in fact it's already around and its that of Easyjet: a reliable airline offering a correct customer approach, combined with a no tralala product choice on multiple daily flights to all of the main airports of Europe. Period.

The question is however: why should B.air concentrate so much on trying to become more of an Easyjet clone, while they have huge opportunities elsewhere waiting to be used? If I look at Swiss I see they have a rather limited European network providing the essential links only, yet having a massive intercontinental network.

Do brussels airlines really have to fight for a piece of the market on Malaga or Faro for instance?

Brussels may not be Paris nor London, but theoretically it is in a much higher league than cities like Copenhagen, Manchester, or even Milan, all of which are bigger intercontinental gateways, so think bigger than dreaming about a feet of Q400 to operate regional routes with I'd say: all of it is just some more efficient yet equally insignificant messing around by people who accuse others of lacking both ambition and vision: don't come and tell me JFK is the only transatlantic route they could make work. They should have no problems filling an evening flight to JFK too as well ad daily flights to Montreal, to Boston, to Washington and to some place in California as the very minimum IMHO.

Let go of an unsolvable problem before it becomes an obsession and grasp another opportunity instead. They are plentiful.

Just my opinion though.

[RoMax]

The question is however: why should B.air concentrate so much on trying to become more of an Easyjet clone, while they have huge opportunities elsewhere waiting to be used? If I look at Swiss I see they have a rather limited European network providing the essential links only, yet having a massive intercontinental network.

Do brussels airlines really have to fight for a piece of the market on Malaga or Faro for instance?

Brussels may not be Paris nor London, but theoretically it is in a much higher league than cities like Copenhagen, Manchester, or even Milan, all of which are bigger intercontinental gateways, so think bigger than dreaming about a feet of Q400 to operate regional routes with I'd say: all of it is just some more efficient yet equally insignificant messing around by people who accuse others of lacking both ambition and vision: don't come and tell me JFK is the only transatlantic route they could make work. They should have no problems filling an evening flight to JFK too as well ad daily flights to Montreal, to Boston, to Washington and to some place in California as the very minimum IMHO.

Exactly! And that's exactly what SN tries to do. They want to cut the European network as far as they can, the only problem they have is to discover how far they can cut that network without losing feeding pax on their long haul network. I remember a quite recent interview with Bernard Gustin (it had more to do with the AEA, but he also got some questions about SN). There he said the business traffic in Europe is close to non-existing in this economical climate (modern technologies make short business trips in Europe often too expensive compared to the alternatives) on most routes and that they don't want to aim anymore at the typicall touristic destinations (except for some very popular destinations in the summer). Instead of that they fully concentrate on long haul development and the European network has to be adjusted to feed this intercontinental network. Additional destinations that have no significant role in that whole network are doomed to end.
For the remaining destinations there must come certain adjustments to improve their performance.

BTW, didn't LH said (internaly to the SN personel) that BRU has to biggest long haul potential (after FRA) that's still unused, in their hub-network? That's not really wrong... MUC or ZRH may have more overall potential, but they already have more intercontinental flights, BRU has a lot of potential but no one is using it... Even OS in VIE has a bigger intercontinental network...it should be the other way around.

In the same interview where I talked about above, Gustin also said they will first focus on the US and Africa and they may add Montreal, but only after they added some new US and/or African routes (YUL has not the highest priority because of AC). Only after they are well established in North America and increased their power in Africa , they'll look at Asia. Currently Asia is not high priority for them as it would be again a whole new market and the most important destinations (except for Tokyo) are already covered by partners.

That they're adding a destination like EDI this winter (even quite high capacity), while the coorperation with BMI Regional will end, clearly indicates that this route delivers a lot of feed for the rest of the network. Destinations like WAW and ATH on the otherside that will be cut are served at least two daily by Star partners making it useless for SN to operate these routes themself if they are losing money on it, even if they provide feeding traffic. And the ex-Virgin destinations in South-Europe that will be cut are even more useless in the 'new' intercontinental strategy of SN. And there are more such routes that could use adjustments...

[Inquirer]

Well, they better start putting their plans into practice, don't they?
Is it really that difficult to add maybe more than just one single long haul plane per year to their fleet?
At this pace it will take them deep into next decade before they have a sizeable intercontinental network able to sustain itself without too much regional feed from Europe....
Anyway, I am beginning to sound like an Internet CEO myself now!
Tooth pain has more consequences than sleep deprivation, it seems!

[RoMax]

Well, they better start putting their plans into practice, don't they?
Is it really that difficult to add maybe more than just one single long haul plane per year to their fleet?
At this pace it will take them deep into next decade before they have a sizeable intercontinental network able to sustain itself without too much regional feed from Europe....

Don't understand me wrong, I totally agree! Their ideas are not bad, but they are going too slow, the competition is always some steps in front (talking about long haul in flight service? Yes, now they have superb product, but they came from a 'charter' product in economy and a '90-'00's product in a part of their business class fleet...), and yes they don't add enough long haul. But then we are talking about money again. It's not so easy for SN's management to ask for another 10-20 million for a new aircraft with new long haul destination(s). The current shareholders are not that eager to invest in SN (SN Airholding) anymore, they just want LH takes the rest of their shares.

Ok, we know they'll get another A330 in the first half of 2013 and a second US destination (officially it's: "probably", but internally it's more a matter of "when" if I understand it well). But in my opinion they should add at least two, maybe even 3-4 A330's next year. Not only more to the US (second route and maybe upgrading JFK to 10-14 weekly), but also more to Africa, otherwise they'll loose their position overthere to new competitors like TK, QR, EK,... But than it's the question, is someone willing to pay for that??? I don't believe the management will invest (or is allowed to invest) that much money without fresh capital from the SN Airholding (or actually the shareholders).

[FlightMate]

And what about NOT turning the european operations in a profit, but instead, focussing on making s*it load of money with the long haul product.

They should use the European network merely as a tool for bringing expensive passengers to their long haul product.

The European network has a ridiculously big size compared to their long haul network (already better, but remember when they only had 3x330)

[RoMax]

Well yeay, I think that's the plan. As I said in one of my previous posts (the first post on this second page of this topic), it's not just SN, no single European network carrier is succesfull in Europe. They are all losing money with it, some can back up it with their long haul network, others book an overall loss.
SN is cutting the loss making routes that have no role in the long haul feeding strategy or the routes that can be backed up by a partner (WAW, ATH). The remaining routes will probably stay loss making (the only thing they can do is reducing the losses), but as they have a significant role in the feeding of the long haul flights, they can't be cut.

How they are going to reduce the losses on the remaining EU routes will show the future, I have no idea how they are going to do this. A full Q400-fleet is not going to bring the solution (the Q400's prove to be great on the routes it's currently used on, but it's too limited for South Europe, North Europe,...), neither a very luxery product (EU routes are too short for that, there is almost no business market anymore for intra-EU flights). Will it be more of a LCC operation (like Finnair, Iberia, Lufthansa,... are or will be doing), will it be an improvement of the current offer of 3 classes, ... ???

[sean1982]

Part of the problem is BRU in itself IMO. Let's say 95% of LCC pax want to go from A to B and that's it, where as the audience that Bru AIr target are people that wanna get connections to everywhere in the world. How many connections does BRU offer, compared with AMS,FRA,LHR or CDG which are all reachable in less then an hour flying time?

I think if Bru AIR wants any chance of survival they will have to invest seriously in their long haul product and use their european network as feeders (making that profitable is nearly impossible in the current climate)

Lets compare:
Switserland: 8m inhabitants - swiss long haul fleet: 27 aircraft
Belgium: 11m inhabitants - Bru air long haul feelt: 7 aircraft
Something doesn't quite add up here!

[RoMax]

Indeed, if they have the money they should grow as fast as possible (in 2013 or early 2014) to 10 long haul aircraft, in my opinion. BRU has the long haul potential (there are several unserved routes that SN could make work in their role as Star Alliance member) and SN showed they can push a competitor out of the race on highly competitive routes.
It may not be ideal for their financial results in the comming 2 years, but if they wait too long it will be even worse on the long term...

[Atlantis]

But Switserland and Belgium are totally different. Switserland can offer a very wide range of financial institutions. Belgium is the capital of Europe with only a wide range of EU departments.

That's why Switserland can attract a wider range of long haul carriers. Those ones Switserland can attract are not interested in Belgium. We simply don't have huge HQ here in Brussels or Belgium.

Here in Belgium we cannot do whatthey can in London, Amsterdam, Paris or Frankfurt. Simple. We have strong bounds with North-America and Africa. See the numbers of American carriers who flies to Belgium (now less because of mergers) but on a certain moment we had all 5 the biggest ones at Brussels.

Like Bernard Gustin said in an article they can only focus at this moment on America and Africa.

This we can also see for our charters. Jetairfly is very strong in Carribian flights with multiple flights a week. But Bangkok can be only ones a week. Look at the past for them: Goa, Male, Colombo, etc. Most of them were only for one season.

At this moment, with this global climate, I think that we can only expect from SN that they can grow in flights to Africa and the USA. Nothing more. But it would be good to add at least two long haul aircrafts a year so that they can grow in both directions.

To offer destinations to the rest of the world is the task of the airlines department of Brussels Airport. They are in contact with the whole world to convince carriers to start up flights to Brussels. The membership of SN to Star Alliance helped them with this. To see more exotic destinations it will come from other foreign airlines.

[RoMax]

Yes Belgium is not Switserland, but for sure there is more potential in BRU than currently used. With the right connections, there are several other North-American (don't forget Canada..., I think there's more in it than 'just' Toronto and Montreal...Vancouver to name something) routes that could be made to a succes. The same goes for Africa.

And yes SN will not aim at Asia (or Latin-America to name something else) in 2013 or 2014. But I'm sure they'll look at some key Asian routes once they are better established in North-America and enforced their position in Africa. For now they can rely on partners like Jet Airways (but for how much longer?), Thai, Hainan, and hopefully soon ANA and maybe eventually SQ. But just like with the US and more and more with YUL, I'm sure there will come a time that SN is tired of fully relying on their partners for certain huge Asian cities. But ok, now we are talking about mid to long term.

[cnc]

if sabena would have joined an alliance and stayed alive we would have seen a different BRU but the aviation map has been drawn since and it will be hard to develop BRU at the cost of an other major hub airport

[Vinnie-Winnie]

Sabena would not have survived in any circumstances. Te trend in the industry is consolidation and specialization.

Bru will always remain specialized. Following finnair's and LH's example, SN should subcontract all European flights that are unprofitable given sn's/Belgian cost of labor structure and keep the trunk/high yielding European routes as well Africa's and American routes where there is room for expansion.

JOb losses yes there would be. But it is much preferable to keep a good healthy airline than a sickly airline.