SN/FR/BRU/CRL controversy

[Inquirer]

This has already been investigated and I can tell you ( ), you won"t find a single FR pilot whose sole activity is flying for Ryanair.

I am not knowledgable enough to significantly comment on technical details, but what I do know is that there is talk about some sort of a legal initiative to tackle this particular 'problem' too, so what may have barely passed the test in the past, may no longer do so in future.

Let's be honnest: flying full time for Ryan Air, they can't be doing much else, can they?

It is only fair if people who are indeed full time pilots for Ryan Air are made to pay the very same taxes as every other full time employee in Belgium: I say so as a highly taxes employee myself who doesn't like it when others get themselves a preferential treatment by exploiting the loopholes in the international fiscal laws, because in the end, it will just make my own taxes higher somehow!

Well, the wish and the interest of that average Joë (like me) is to keep Ryanair(and the other LCC's) in Belgium, in order to fly at low cost or at least to have a choice of carriers.

In which case there is no reason to complain for sure, because a level playing field is the best guarantee for having a choice in future too, it's what the european rules are all about remember? Just because it now seems like the competition distorting issues are to be found on the side of Ryan Air, doesn't automatically mean they should be given less importance by the market regulators, you know?

[Acid-drop]

Finally, it would set a nice exemple for the public opinion in Flanders too, because the widespread idea here has been the government lead by Di Rupo is dominated by French speaking parties which simply want to shift all of the bills to us in Flanders, all while their people in Wallonia are kept benefiting big time from our money. Making a high profile airline from CRL which has been cuddled almost to dead by politicians from Wallonia in the past as well as its well-paid employees live up to the same fiscal standards as all those in Flanders, will thus be a very welcome case to disprove the above popular perception.

That is indeed a huge problem. The perception problem.
Because of course, this is only perception of the reality, not the reality.
It's obvious that we wouldn't have so many issues if CRL and BRU weren't slit in 2 different regions, so yes we can summarize it : it's a political problem.
Some people don't understand that the best way of having a very rich Flanders is ... having a rich wallonia.
Each job created in CRL is less money transfer from the feleral state.
But of course that doesn't work if we simply move within belgium.

But anyway, this whole CRL vs BRU debate is rather useless. We all know they should stay at BRU for at least 80% of the traffic, so the real problem here is the cost of BRU.

[fcw]

This has already been investigated and I can tell you ( ), you won"t find a single FR pilot whose sole activity is flying for Ryanair.

I am not knowledgable enough to significantly comment on technical details, but what I do know is that there is talk about some sort of a legal initiative to tackle this particular 'problem' too, so what may have barely passed the test in the past, may no longer do so in future.

Let's be honnest: flying full time for Ryan Air, they can't be doing much else, can they?

Just like full time ministers can't be doing much else?
Just like full time CEO's can't be doing much else?
I am knowledgable enough, but not stupid enough to publish the details here... but believe me, it is legal.

[Inquirer]

Not saying it isn't legal, just saying it could be made illegal by a simple law enumerating professions for which it is automatically barred when you exceed a certain treshold (for instance days you've worked for the same 'customer' or flight hours flown in case of pilots) etc.

Remember, this government is after more tax revenues and they certainly will not spare all those who have the perception against them of being somehow benefiting overly favourable from the system so far, compared to others in similar cases.

Finally, why would it be stupid to share the details here?
If it is legal, then surely there is nothing against it, is there?
Weird remark of yours, I must say.....

[airazurxtror]

In which case there is no reason to complain for sure, because a level playing field is the best guarantee for having a choice in future too, it's what the european rules are all about remember? Just because it now seems like the competition distorting issues are to be found on the side of Ryan Air, doesn't automatically mean they should be given less importance by the market regulators, you know?

"Level playing field", one of Davignon's favourites !
Everybody taxed the same ?
Do all pilots, for instance, pay the same taxes ? Not only those of Ryanair (or Aer Lingus, for that matter)but Jet Airways ? Royal Air Maroc ? Olympic or Aegean ? Alitalia ? Continental or American ? Emirates ? Hainan ?
Each country has its own taxation system (and opportunities of fraud), there is no universal level playing field - not even in the EU, let alone the rest of the world.
Brussels Airlines has to make do with the system like it is - and, as they say : if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

[Inquirer]

"Level playing field", one of Davignon's favourites !

Excuse me, but the basic principle should be that all people working in Belgium pay their taxes here, regardless whether they work for a Belgian or foreign company. If until now aviation was excepted somehow, then this exception must be ended, for me as a squeezed middle class taxpayer it is as simple as that really and I do hope Parliament will take all steps needed to make everybody in Belgium finally pay their fair share. If they finally make Ryan Air and all of its employees do this too, they certainly have my full support and I reckon that of many people like me.

Do Carrefour employees pay less taxes than those working for Delhaize for instance?
I don't know, but I sure hope they don't; if not it should be rectified ASAP too.

Nothing unfair about the above principle at all, just common sense, so please stop acting as if you are somehow a victim: perception is strongly against Ryan Air on this and you know it very well, which I why O Leary rushed out to Brussels, but he wasn't very successful because quite frankly, he has no point to make other than "well, it's legal so why don't others do it too?"
Not what I'd call a very good tactic in the face of our federal government's lust for more tax revenues.....

[fcw]

Excuse me, but the basic principle should be that all people working in Belgium pay their taxes here, regardless whether they work for a Belgian or foreign company. If until now aviation was excepted somehow, then this exception must be ended, for me as a squeezed middle class taxpayer it is as simple as that really and I do hope Parliament will take all steps needed to make everybody in Belgium finally pay its fair share. If they finally make Ryan Air and all of its employees do this, they certainly have my full support and I reckon that of many people like me.

Well the EU and the OECD (OESO/OCDE) have a different idea, they want to tax people in the country of residence, as it is there you benefit of education, roads, ... Since 2010 most new tax agreements are according to this 2010 OECD model tax convention. A pilot living in Belgium would pay the same taxes regardless for whom he is working.
For social security, aircrew are an exception for the moment, but new EU legislation could be in force as soon as next year making social security payments due in country of the base to which the crewmember is affected.
BruAir certainely knows this so their plead for level playing field are just hollow words. They urgently need money and taxing FRpilots won't change anything.

[Inquirer]

Excuse me, but the basic principle should be that all people working in Belgium pay their taxes here, regardless whether they work for a Belgian or foreign company. If until now aviation was excepted somehow, then this exception must be ended, for me as a squeezed middle class taxpayer it is as simple as that really and I do hope Parliament will take all steps needed to make everybody in Belgium finally pay its fair share. If they finally make Ryan Air and all of its employees do this, they certainly have my full support and I reckon that of many people like me.

Well the EU and the OECD (OESO/OCDE) have a different idea, they want to tax people in the country of residence, as it is there you benefit of education, roads, ... Since 2010 most new tax agreements are according to this 2010 OECD model tax convention. A pilot living in Belgium would pay the same taxes regardless for whom he is working.
For social security, aircrew are an exception for the moment, but new EU legislation could be in force as soon as next year making social security payments due in country of the base to which the crewmember is affected.

I may have expressed myself badly when I said people who work in Belgium should be taxed here, as I understand there's a subtile difference between working here and living here, yet I actually ment it as 'taxed where they live' just like you say, excuse me for this confusion: I was thinking both were pretty much the same anyway, which isn't always the case, I agree, so I should have been more precise on this indeed from the start.

Nevertheless, the basic principle must indeed be that 2 pilots in Belgium are taxed in exactly the same way, regardless the origin of the companies they fly for: it's only fair and I am happy to see Europe is tackling this problem too, it's something long due and heavily market distorting indeed, which can not be in anybody's interest but those individuals concerned.

[Inquirer]

taxing FRpilots won't change anything.

It will restore fiscal fairness, which definitely means a great lot to me. Not to you, then????

[fcw]

taxing FRpilots won't change anything.

It will restore fiscal fairness, which definitely means a great lot to me. Not to you, then????

As said before, I agree with you about the fiscal fairness, but you should quote me in full: it won't change anything for BruAir if an FR pilot pays more taxes. Gross salary at FR is higher than at BruAir, resulting in more or less the same salary cost if you include social security. The nett salary of an FR pilot will be half of what it is now.

[Inquirer]

All this reminds me of something which happened to me at work, a couple of weeks ago.

(in case any of you is not interested, please don't read, it is not aviation related in any way, just bears the same lesson of fairness in it, that's all)

Last year, I took over a team of auditors from a colleague of mine, 7 in total.
All 7 are hardworking guys, who do their job correctly so I can not complain, I guess.
As we all know by now, the Di Rupo government has decided to radically change the approach towards leasing cars in remuneration packages, so in February we did an in depth review of our car policy to see what it all means for us and during this process it came to my attention that one of the 7 is actually driving a car which is no less than 2 classes higher than what he is entitled to!
I was a bid stunned by this at first, but quickly learnt that when he started with us 2 years ago, they simply gave him an unused lease car which was standing idle and told him he could order his own one the next year, yet when that moment came he preferred to continue with what he had and for some reason they let him do so, probably because it may not have been (much) more expensive even back then.
Now, although it is not a pleasant thing to do, I felt I had no choice but to call him in and inform him that we're going to terminate the contract for his car as from June and he has to order a new one in the same much lower category as his colleagues in order to comply with our car policy.
Obviously he was not very pleased and he used basically the same argument as some have done here too, saying it wouldn't change a thing for any of his colleagues whether or not I let him drive this old class of car, but to me its just a matter of fairness really: as a manager I have to make sure all people on my team are dealt with in exactly the same way, without exceptions or privileges.

Our government should do the same really: if it discovers some of us in Belgium are somehow being favoured through a loophole in the fiscal rules, it should act on it to close that loophole and correct the unfairness ASAP, not as a punishment but to restore justice: simple as that really.

As such it really doesnt matter whether it will have any positive consequences for B.air if and when the govenment forces Ryan Air to comply with the Belgian law: unfairnesses must be corrected, no matter what.

[cnc]

"Level playing field", one of Davignon's favourites !
Everybody taxed the same ?
Do all pilots, for instance, pay the same taxes ? Not only those of Ryanair (or Aer Lingus, for that matter)but Jet Airways ? Royal Air Maroc ? Olympic or Aegean ? Alitalia ? Continental or American ? Emirates ? Hainan ?
Each country has its own taxation system (and opportunities of fraud), there is no universal level playing field - not even in the EU, let alone the rest of the world.
Brussels Airlines has to make do with the system like it is - and, as they say : if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

get real... i work for a US airline at BRU and i pay my taxes in belgium, same go's for the Belgian 9W, HU, ... people at BRU.

[fcw]

"Level playing field", one of Davignon's favourites !
Everybody taxed the same ?
Do all pilots, for instance, pay the same taxes ? Not only those of Ryanair (or Aer Lingus, for that matter)but Jet Airways ? Royal Air Maroc ? Olympic or Aegean ? Alitalia ? Continental or American ? Emirates ? Hainan ?
Each country has its own taxation system (and opportunities of fraud), there is no universal level playing field - not even in the EU, let alone the rest of the world.
Brussels Airlines has to make do with the system like it is - and, as they say : if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

get real... i work for a US airline at BRU and i pay my taxes in belgium, same go's for the Belgian 9W, HU, ... people at BRU.

He was talking about CREW not ground staff!

[Inquirer]

Is it any less fair for one category than the other to be paying taxes where one doesn't live nor work then?
Pilots are employees just as anybody else really, although I have come to learn that at Ryan Air pilots are fake self employed?!

[cnc]

"Level playing field", one of Davignon's favourites !
Everybody taxed the same ?
Do all pilots, for instance, pay the same taxes ? Not only those of Ryanair (or Aer Lingus, for that matter)but Jet Airways ? Royal Air Maroc ? Olympic or Aegean ? Alitalia ? Continental or American ? Emirates ? Hainan ?
Each country has its own taxation system (and opportunities of fraud), there is no universal level playing field - not even in the EU, let alone the rest of the world.
Brussels Airlines has to make do with the system like it is - and, as they say : if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

get real... i work for a US airline at BRU and i pay my taxes in belgium, same go's for the Belgian 9W, HU, ... people at BRU.

He was talking about CREW not ground staff!

ok and what is the difference between based ground and flight crew?

[fcw]

get real... i work for a US airline at BRU and i pay my taxes in belgium, same go's for the Belgian 9W, HU, ... people at BRU.

He was talking about CREW not ground staff!

ok and what is the difference between based ground and flight crew?

The double taxation agreements are!
Once again, don't shoot the messenger, I am only pointing out that the LAW is different for crew and ground staff.

[fcw]

I have come to learn that at Ryan Air pilots are fake self employed?!

The ones I know are not, they run a PLC with activities in different sectors, one of which being providing one or more pilots to FR and other airlines.
By the way, BruAir employs some of his pilots and alomost all of his managers in the same way!

[Squelsh]

indeed amazing to repeat history so often in this ridiculous country.
and im sure its not the last time.

Couldn't agree more on your statement about this ridiculous country, Eyskens called it a monkey-country, he was right.
But the Air is 'Libre' above Brussels now?
.

The options are there, let the manager choose and let him fail, that life.

.
Yes, the options are there, but in an unbalanced playing field, unbalanced by a region that since years (mensenheugnis act) spends money that they do not have.
Analogue, a car will not run faster because you put it on a new racetrack. Change the car. Vice versa.

[Inquirer]

We realise you are right under the current situation, yet I think both of us point to the fact that the current situation is totaly unfair and in high need of a legal correction, exactly for the reason that there should be no exception for anyone: ground nor flight crew.
This has nothing to do with trying to punish anyone or trying to help other airlines, but all the more with fairness and justice towards all those ordinary people like CNC and I who do pay all taxes logically due.
Let's see if Ryan Air can stand the heath of the kitchen when they are made to pay their Belgian taxes just like everybody else here or are they going to resort to their well known tactic of screaming and pretending to walk away first then?
To quote O Leary: "who cares? Go elsewhere then if you can't make it work under the given conditions!" I don't want to see them leave CRL as I use them from time to time too (purely privately), but I do want to see their privileges revoked ASAP.

[airazurxtror]

A "balanced playing field " include also the material.
Ryanair should likely be forced to fly second hand or leased gaz-guzzling old aircraft !

Not related to SN or Fr but interesting. LCC Norwegian has on command six 787 and is planning to go long-haul.
Its CEO, Björn Kjos, in "Airliner World" for April 2012 page 97 :
"We foresee that if we are able to fly with the Dreamliner within our existing infrastructure, but with an Asian crew, we should be able to operate the aircraft at 50% of the cost to our competitors".
He also says (page 96 of same) : "I think there will be lots of opportunities in Europe in 2012 because there are too many airlines that have way too old fleets to be profitable with the oil prices of today".
Norwegian is the third largest budget carrier in Europe and plans to acquire 100 737MAX and 100 A320neo. Its arrival at BRU is not to be ruled out.