Brussels Airlines future and financial perspective

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airazurxtror
Posts: 3769
Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 00:00

Re: Brussels airlines future and financial prospective?

Post by airazurxtror »

BrusselsAirlines wrote: Nice to have all these expert opinions that nobody reads anymore because they are all sooooooo looooong and always the same.
Just so.
Like the average member of the public, I take advantage of what I am offered, in this case, a Ryanair ticket at a very low cost, and I couldn't care less about how they can manage it, even if they have to rob the National Bank of Ireland, it is none of my business.
Same as if you buy something made in China, you don't stop to consider if the worker who made it has got a fair pay, and if the works where it was made are environment-conscious.
Brussels Airlines can do what they can to get help from the Government, here also I couldn't care less - but they should not try to shot down Ryanair. Others have tried and were much the worse for it.
I imagine that those who have lost what they had paid for a ticket when Sabena collapsed, have not forgotten it. Same for those who have had a similar experience with others bankrupt airlines since then.
Davignon hinting that Brussels Airlines is in a desperate position will not much help advance reservations ...

Air Key West
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial prospective?

Post by Air Key West »

I'm seldom shocked, but this time I am and I cannot refrain from reacting.
airazurxtror wrote:I take advantage of what I am offered, in this case, a Ryanair ticket at a very low cost, and I couldn't care less about how they can manage it, even if they have to rob the National Bank of Ireland, it is none of my business.
Basically, you're saying that you don't mind that Ryanair robs others, as long as it good for you. Says a lot about your state of mind or better : your lack of ethics. I wouldn't be too proud of such a statement.
airazurxtror wrote:I imagine that those who have lost what they had paid for a ticket when Sabena collapsed, have not forgotten it.
What about the following variation : I image that those who had to pay for their own expenses sometimes for several days when their Ryanair flight was canceled, have not forgotten it.

I would have liked to say more, but then someone is going to say the post is too looooooong.
In favor of quality air travel.

Flanker
Posts: 395
Joined: 16 Jul 2011, 21:05

Re: Brussels airlines future and financial prospective?

Post by Flanker »

Air Key West wrote:I'm seldom shocked, but this time I am and I cannot refrain from reacting.

airazurxtror wrote:
I take advantage of what I am offered, in this case, a Ryanair ticket at a very low cost, and I couldn't care less about how they can manage it, even if they have to rob the National Bank of Ireland, it is none of my business.

Basically, you're saying that you don't mind that Ryanair robs others, as long as it good for you. Says a lot about your state of mind or better : your lack of ethics. I wouldn't be too proud of such a statement.
I understand his point of view. Is the government still acting in the majority's interest? hardly so. In the current common living environment it's every man for himself, so the general public won't give a damn as long as they can get an extra benefit from their taxes in the form of cheap tickets from Ryanair. Ryanair is however a win-win-win solution company.

Win 1: The customer can buy a cheap ticket thanks to subsidies from their own paid taxes, so it's an extra benefit for the taxpayer.
Win 2: The regional government can create jobs without too high investment costs.
Win 3: Ryanair makes money.

Basically, chasing Ryanair away with fees and charges will not be in the people's interest and the average Joe won't be happy about it. If SN fails, the average Joe couldn't care less.

Inquirer
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Joined: 14 Feb 2012, 14:30

Re: Brussels airlines future and financial prospective?

Post by Inquirer »

The average Joe may not care, but he'd be feeling it nevertheless...

Remember the loss in GDP (and thus also loss in both direct and indirect tax revenues) from the collapse of SABENA?
Somehow the government would have to make good for that too as at the end of the year their budget needs to meet its target no matter what and it's not like the have a thousand options to do so, do they?

Companies with thousands of employees enrolled on a purely Belgian payroll better aren't tossed around with the way they currently are in Belgium: we have far too few companies which outgrow the status of a typical SME of our own already and as we have come to see in the past, the voids left when one of them closes aren't filled in nearly te same fiscally rewarding ways by foreign competitors of them.

Quite depressing sometimes to see how in Belgium the highest ambition of Joe Average seems to be to either work for local government or a bank -is there still a difference between the two these days- or alternatively for some hometown based SME owned by the local mayor-for-life, while everything from electricity to aviation is happily left to foreign companies, only to complain about a lack of strategic control over their decisions and prices a few years later (see Electrabel). Petit pays, petit esprit, proven once again.

I agree with your win-win analysis of above: if applied to a Belgian network airline, rather than a foreign low cost, it could potentially yield far greater ROI ( see the gulf region and it's airlines), so I wonder why it isn't done? Probably fear of a nimby on early retirement in a brussels suburb who'd complain about the extra noise... ;)

Flanker
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Joined: 16 Jul 2011, 21:05

Re: Brussels airlines future and financial prospective?

Post by Flanker »

Remember the loss in GDP (and thus also loss in both direct and indirect tax revenues) from the collapse of SABENA?
Somehow the government would have to make good for that too as at the end of the year their budget needs to meet its target no matter what and it's not like the have a thousand options to do so, do they?
That's what would happen indeed with this government.
Same as with SN who's trying to cut cost, the Belgian government is scraping off already so much that there's not much left to scrape.
However, there are methods to generate more tax revenue and ironically it would be very similar to the Ryanair method.

1. Fight illegal/black work, not by hiring more social inspectors, but by lowering the social contributions and tax rate on the lower income categories. Re-organize the purchase power of the people to relaunch the economy to increase vat income and make establishment of French, German and Dutch companies in Belgium more attractive by lowering the employment cost.

It's easy.

Employment/personal taxation: reduce the social contributions to a cap of 25% total spread 10/15% between employee and employer for all income tranches up to 40.000 euro.
Similarly cap the taxes to 20% on the income tranche up to 40,000 euro's (first 6000 exempt like now).
Above 40.000 charge heavily. The lower income families, which form a large majority of working people, would feel an immediate 20% increase of purchase power.

Self-employment/business taxation.
Reduce social contributions to 15% for business owners and self-employed, but instead of capping at 80.000 euro, go all the way without limit. Self-employed taxed at uniform rate of 25% but offered same social protection as employees. Severe fines and jailtime for fake self-employment for incomes above 40.000 euro.
Corporate tax rate 25% for everybody and offer social contribution incentives for every growth of net taxable income.

Increase fines for black work.

Advantages:
-no one works in black anymore while receiving welfare money, no point in doing that anymore.
=Less spending, more tax revenue.
-stimulates foreign businesses to come use Belgian manpower,
-stimulates Belgian businesses to hire and to expand and to earn more money,
-stimulates new entrepreneurs,
-Luxemburg/Switzerland effect, big employers like real estate/construction and banks thrive,
-Makes money turn, increasing VAT revenue.
-For airlines, more traffic

2. Impose traffic charges/vignettes to truck traffic going through Belgium, like in Switzerland. Through traffic doesn't spend money in Belgium.

3. Reduce welfare compensations from RVA/ONEM by 25% on the higher receivers, try to find work solutions for OCMW/CPAS people to launch them back into the working society. There are enough jobs where all you need is 2 hands. Form a workforce that works like a government temp (interim) office to be able to offer "job tastings".

I guarantee you, that if Belgium does this, in no time all the problems would solve themselves.

Low margin industries like aviation don't combine well with high tax environments, so as long as the government doesn't solve all the issues as marked above, airlines like SN won't thrive.

Air Key West
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial prospective?

Post by Air Key West »

Flanker wrote:Win 1: The customer can buy a cheap ticket thanks to subsidies from their own paid taxes, so it's an extra benefit for the taxpayer.
...for the tax payer who flies.
Honestly, I don't see the point of using tax payers money to offer cheap air tickets through subsidizing an airport and an airline. If this is ok for FR/CRL, than it should be ok for SN, too, to receive money from a public authority spending tax payers money.
Flanker wrote:Win 3: Ryanair makes money.
Well, you could rephrase it and say : tax payers from the Walloon Region (and several other regions in Europe) contribute with their money to the huge profits made by an Irish airline. If that is acceptable, why could'nt Belgian tax payers money be used to contribute to the success of a Belgian airline ?
Given the contents and the tone of certain posts, I am no longer surprised that those who have always been outraged because the Belgian State used to bail out Sabena, find it perfectly all right for tax payers money to
be used to help an Irish company make huge profits without paying taxes and social contributions to the States or Regions helping it to be succesful.
Double standards in my opinion.
Last edited by Air Key West on 25 Mar 2012, 22:40, edited 1 time in total.
In favor of quality air travel.

Air Key West
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial prospective?

Post by Air Key West »

tolipanebas wrote:I see the doomsday preachers are out again?
http://trends.knack.be/economie/nieuws/ ... 499096.htm
Or : the main message in the article is : Christoph Franz told brussels airlines staff, last Tuesday, that Lufthansa will not buy the remaining SN shares if the airline is loss-making.
I was probably too optimistic in a previous post when I said that from a 99% certainty of LH taking full control of SN, I considered it to be 50%. I'm tempted to lower my prediction to 25%, although I hate the idea.
I don't want thousands of people to loose their jobs (again) because the airline might disappear, but it's going to be an uphill battle.

Altough Franz has agreed for LH to inject money in loss-making OS, he doesn't apparently want to do it in the case of SN. Brings me back to my earlier expressed feeling: Franz doesn't want b.air in the LH Group.
Double standards.
In favor of quality air travel.

airazurxtror
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Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 00:00

Re: Brussels airlines future and financial prospective?

Post by airazurxtror »

Air Key West wrote: Honestly, I don't see the point of using tax payers money to offer cheap air tickets through subsidizing an airport and an airline. If this is ok for FR/CRL, than it should be ok for SN, too, to receive money from a public authority spending tax payers money.
Double standards in my opinion.
Brussels Airlines has been offered exactly the same so-called subsidies, if they come at Charleroi (you don't expect the Walloon Region to subsidy an airline that don't come to CRL or LGG, do you ?).
Brussels Airlines have made clear that they don't want to come to Charleroi, but that is another matter.
Exactly the same standards, in my opinion.

Flanker
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Joined: 16 Jul 2011, 21:05

Re: Brussels airlines future and financial prospective?

Post by Flanker »

Flanker wrote:
Win 1: The customer can buy a cheap ticket thanks to subsidies from their own paid taxes, so it's an extra benefit for the taxpayer.

...for the tax payer who flies.
Honestly, I don't see the point of using tax payers money to offer cheap air tickets through subsidizing an airport and an airline. If this is ok for FR/CRL, than it should be ok for SN, too, to receive money from a public authority spending tax payers money.
Flanker wrote:
Win 3: Ryanair makes money.

Well, you could rephrase it and say : tax payers from the Walloon Region (and several other regions in Europe) contribute with their money to the huge profits made by an Irish airline. If that is acceptable, why could'nt Belgian tax payers money be used to contribute to the success of a Belgian airline ?
Given the contents and the tone of certain posts, I am no longer surprised that those who have always been outraged because the Belgian State used to bail out Sabena, find it perfectly all right for tax payers money to
be used to help an Irish company make huge profits without paying taxes and social contributions to the States or Regions helping it to be succesful.
Double standards in my opinion.
I see this in a more complicated way.
Sabena, despite the subsidies was far from being a cheap airline.
SN is similar to Sabena in that giving them subsidies would probably make the airline profitable, but the fares would stay sky high. That would be a waste of tax money, like with Sabena.

In the case of Ryanair, the subsidies allow the passengers to save on their travel budget and also allow less fortunate people to book travels. For instance this month I have saved 550 euro's on travel budget over traditional air carriers. If 250 euro's of that 550 comes from the taxes I have paid, I as taxpayer have just received a tax discount of 250 euro's. Rather than a subsidy to Ryanair, I see this as a benefit from the taxes I pay.
Even better when those 250 euro's result in a total saving of 550 euro's.

This is by the way one of the big reasons why the EU lets Ryanair do this. They stimulate competition and it benefits the consumer.

If you give SN a 30 euro per pax subsidy, what's going to happen?
The ticket will go from 370 euro's to 340 euro's and the airline would still be losing money...
So yes, there it would be a waste of tax money.

regi
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial prospective?

Post by regi »

OK Flanker, from a tax payer's view , you are right. I am also very sensitive about that issue. :x

When I look at myself as a passenger - and tax payer - , I must admit that I have changed my mind since the beginning I became here a member. I used to glorify the idea of free enterprise based on the Emirates model.

Now some years later I know what happens if large cooperations take over the business, without any state intervention possebility : low wages, no rights, no benefits, threat to leave the country and eventually job losses and company closures.
Those large cooperations become so powerful that they undermine our way of living.
1 Belgian example: the closure of the hot lines of the steel mills of Arcelor Mittal ( ex Cockerill works) , at the same time that a brand new factory is being set up in Brasil to overcome import duties over there.
You might say:"hey, that is another subject"
But there are so many similarities. CO2 emissions rights, labour rights ( the subcontractor issue ), state subsidies impossible by the EU legislation, playing devide and rule between the regional governments ( Sidmar in Flanders remains open )
Looking back a bit further in history, I would almost say that the impact of those conglomerates is the same as if a modern version of the East Indian Company would arrive at our shores - slavery and oppression of local habits included. Hey, did MoL not say that the airforce should take over traffic control in case of a strike? ( without saying who would pay for such a private militia action :twisted: )
What I have witnessed in the Gulf States is a modern version of slavery.
Do you think that using foreign labour contracts is the end of the line of Ryanair/Arcelor/GM/P&G ? I can almost read their manager's minds , frustrated that they cannot yet employ Chinese, Indian or Bengali labourers in the Shengen zone.

Coming back to Brussels Airlines, I hate to pay taxes to keep some people on their overvalued seats. If there would come some kind of subsidies, I would ask for an independent crisis manager aka Jean Gandois.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Gandois

convair
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial prospective?

Post by convair »

A bit out of topic but, with Wade out in Senegal, does it change anything for SN and its Dakar destination?

sn-remember
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial prospective?

Post by sn-remember »

Wade being out, we might indeed hope they might reconsider.. What is tooooo unfair to SN.. wonder what the influences were that prompted such one sided measure. Indeed other carriers are allowed to stop en route to DKR. ET and KQ come to mind but I'm sure there are others too. Besides if there is NO 5th freedom right, I don't see what's the problem, really.
I always thought SN should have invested in the new senegalese carrier when it was launched some time ago(in lace of EK ...)
Oh well, backto topic ...
Emirates CEO Jim Clark says ‘Whole Load of Airlines’ to Fail in Fuel Pinch (http://sfgate.adc.bloomberg.wallst.com/ ... 3ICJD99873)
I am not sure fuel price can explain wholly why SN and other leagcies are threated. Of course the ME carriers are the main culprits.
Legacies can only survive on the l/h market and that's where EK/EY/QR are biting in.
It's a long time I plead for protectionist ruling at EU level. It's to me the only way to save our airline industry. What we witness happening at QF,PK,9W,AI (I know different contexts) for instance is what is starting to happen NOW in Europe.
LH is of course far from above the competition.. They will bury the spin-offs before being buried themselves.
SN is in need of a strong investment in AFI for the moment coupled with some NAtl feed, a difficult market they will have to "reconquer" in a way. Costly ? I don't know if they can restart it now profitably.
But some good ideas here: cheaper operation at BRU is really getting urgent.

crlhub

Re: Brussels airlines future and financial prospective?

Post by crlhub »

For those who always critizise both Wal and Brux gov,let me please remind you that both regions are present in the capital of Brussels airlines since 2002.Without that money we would maybe never had a Belgian follower after Sabena.We are still awaiting for the very first cent from the Flemish region...

Quoting from Brussels airlines site:

Shareholders

Brussels Airlines is fully owned by SN Airholding. This Belgian holding of over 30 shareholders is concentrated on the air transport sector.

SN Airholding is made up of top level companies, financial institutions and investment groups such as ... la Société Régionale d’Investissements Wallone (SRIW) and Société Régionale d’Investissements Bruxelloise (SRIB), …

http://company.brusselsairlines.com/en_ ... ation.aspx

http://www.srib.be/fr/12-88-secteurs-ac ... airholding

http://www.sriw.be/fr/espace-aeronautiq ... 39&IDD=136

fcw
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial prospective?

Post by fcw »

tolipanebas wrote:I see the doomsday preachers are out again? What a surprise... :roll:
Is this(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXl1GkWWGmA) you by any chance ?

shockcooling
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial prospective?

Post by shockcooling »

"Brussels Airlines vs Di Rupo : le bras-de-fer fiscal"
http://trends.levif.be/economie/actuali ... 513167.htm#

"Brussels Airlines dreigt naar het buitenland te verhuizen"
http://weekend.knack.be/lifestyle/reize ... 512984.htm

"Zieht Brussels Airlines nach Findel um?‎"
http://www.tageblatt.lu/nachrichten/gro ... 7#talkback

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Airbus330lover
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial prospective?

Post by Airbus330lover »

B air is private !
They can do what they want with or without the "DI RUPO team".

My guess.....: LUX

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fretn
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial prospective?

Post by fretn »

I'd say do it! Let the "Wetstraat" know that things aren't going well and shake things up a bit in order for them to hopefully react.

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BrightCedars
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial prospective?

Post by BrightCedars »

Let them just do what makes business sense and then let the government take note and eventually try to push some change at European level. It would be too simple if most companies just left the country and let it's social system collapse, there's got to be a better way.

Just stop the whining and dramatisation and go on with it!

Who's going to stop flying Brussels Airlines from Brussels Airport because it has an HQ in a fiscally more competitive country?

Acid-drop
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial prospective?

Post by Acid-drop »

My guess.....: LUX
Yeah but it's not that easy ...
I'm not a law expert, but I think it's impossible to have a lux contract and work more than X % in Belgium.
Otherwise we would all be based in Lux ... it's too easy.

Now why it's working with ryanair in Ireland and not for Lux, I have no clue.

Flanker
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Re: Brussels airlines future and financial prospective?

Post by Flanker »

Cristal balls anyone?

Of course Di Rupo won't move, he can't, he's stubborn as are all of his friends.
Gustin is doing his job, finally? But is it the right time?

Re-reging all the aircraft, re-establishing new headquarters, shifting all the payslips (minus social contributions, that are still payable in the country of residence where you actually benefit from social services)... Well, actually not all the payslips because 70% of the staff, specifically all non-crew staff will still have to pay all their taxes in Belgium.

All that shifting costs a lot of money, resources, time, etc...

Is it achievable? Certainly, it's achievable if you roll out the project over several years.
Is it worth it? Of course it is, as long as it fits inside a long-term strategy and that it doesn't interfere with business as usual.

For a company that has a time problem, I think that it isn't the right call to waste time with politics and small savings. The right call for SN would be right now to start looking at the big cuts they can make and the big efficiencies that can be achieved. JFK is kind of too late to stop now, Europe has been slashed dramatically already, staff is running on fumes.

The only big cut that can still be achieved is from BRU and BRU has everything to lose from losing SN.
Instead of wasting his time with Di Rupo, Gustin better talks to the airport or even directly to the Teachers in Ontario.

'If we go bust, you will lose 40% of you revenues at the airport. If you give us what we need to survive this and that is a 30% permanent and another 30% temporary reduction on all fees, once we thrive again we will promise to grow this airport into a full-size Star Alliance hub."

How hard could that be to ask?
Last edited by Flanker on 28 Mar 2012, 11:22, edited 1 time in total.

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