Belgium 30/01/2012 Strike

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Passenger
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Re: Belgium 30/01/2012 Strike

Post by Passenger »

Air Key West wrote:In other words : this has got nothing to do with Monday's strike. We already knew that Jet Airways will stay in BRU if they join *A and that they will move to AMS if they join Skyteam. SPL just wants to convince 9W that if they join Skyteam, their best option would be to move their scissorshub to AMS (and not CDG, MXP or FCO). Again, has got nothing to do with the strike.
So you think that Jet Airways did his investment in Brussels Airport just for fun?

The brainwashing by your union has clearly worked. Because after all, that is the main objective of the strike: to get more voters for themselves at the forthcoming social elections, in May 2012.

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tolipanebas
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Re: Belgium 30/01/2012 Strike

Post by tolipanebas »

Passenger wrote:
Air Key West wrote:Well, tolipanebas has excellent ideas for change. What the government and especially Mr Q did to the flight crew pension scheme is outrageous. They really deserve the hard counteraction suggested by tolipanebas.
Who is "they" in "they deserve the hard counteraction" : the government? No sirs, your strike doesn't hurt the government at all and Mr Q doesn't need a flight to go to work. You only hurt the airports, the airlines, the passengers, BruCargo, the belgian travel trade, the belgian industry. And you hurt them well, for sure. And what's the most disgusted about your strike: you know it only hurts them.
In case SN would have the balls to say: "F*ck off, we've had it here and will outflag our crews", the Belgian government would miss out on thousands of euro in income taxes and social security contributions per crewmember per month: that represents several tens of millions of euro per year.

Sadly, our shareholders are of the flagwaving patriotic type and thus force their flightcrews to needlessly pay the much higher income taxes here compared to elsewhere in Europe, all while constantly whining about how incompetitive our operating costs are in comparison to airlines like U2 and FR which are both operating from Belgium too yet have found fiscally far more favourable regimes to pay their crews through.

Until now, the argument to stay under the Belgian fiscal regime has always been that we had a very favourable pension plan, allowing us to retire relatively early on a fairly good pension, but then Mr Q came along and took all that away... So what's left, I ask you, Mr Passenger?

Indeed, we know this strike is not going to hurt the government and Mr Q certainly couldn't care less whether we go on strike or not tomorrow, but hopefully the problems SN will face from this strike will awake our daydreaming shareholders and management and finally make them understand they have run out of excuses and need to act decisively now, because so far all we've read from them are vague promises they will do their best to soften the consequences from the assault government has organised on our pension system. :roll:

I am sorry, but this cheap talk is not going to do the trick any longer: far more radical commitments are now urgently expected from them, like for instance a clear commitment to massively improve our fiscal situation in order to cope with the need for a self-sponsored retirement plan as we can no longer realistically expect to get any pension when we have to stop working at for instance 57 due to medical problems.

Passenger
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Re: Belgium 30/01/2012 Strike

Post by Passenger »

tolipanebas wrote:
Passenger wrote:
Air Key West wrote:Well, tolipanebas has excellent ideas for change. What the government and especially Mr Q did to the flight crew pension scheme is outrageous. They really deserve the hard counteraction suggested by tolipanebas.
Who is "they" in "they deserve the hard counteraction" : the government? No sirs, your strike doesn't hurt the government at all and Mr Q doesn't need a flight to go to work. You only hurt the airports, the airlines, the passengers, BruCargo, the belgian travel trade, the belgian industry. And you hurt them well, for sure. And what's the most disgusted about your strike: you know it only hurts them.
In case SN would have the balls to say: "F*ck off, we've had it here and will outflag our crews", the Belgian government would miss out on thousands of euro in income taxes and social security contributions per crewmember per month: that represents several tens of millions of euro per year.

Sadly, our shareholders are of the flagwaving patriotic type and thus force their flightcrews to needlessly pay the much higher income taxes here compared to elsewhere in Europe, all while constantly whining about how incompetitive our operating costs are in comparison to airlines like U2 and FR which are both operating from Belgium too yet have found fiscally far more favourable regimes to pay their crews through.

Until now, the argument to stay under the Belgian fiscal regime has always been that we had a very favourable pension plan, allowing us to retire relatively early on a fairly good pension, but then Mr Q came along and took all that away... So what's left, I ask you, Mr Passenger?

Indeed, we know this strike is not going to hurt the government and Mr Q certainly couldn't care less whether we go on strike or not tomorrow, but hopefully the problems SN will face from this strike will awake our daydreaming shareholders and management and finally make them understand they have run out of excuses and need to act decisively now, because so far all we've read from them are vague promises they will do their best to soften the consequences from the assault government has organised on our pension system. :roll:

I am sorry, but this cheap talk is not going to do the trick any longer: far more radical commitments are now urgently expected from them, like for instance a clear commitment to massively improve our fiscal situation in order to cope with the need for a self-sponsored retirement plan as we can no longer realistically expect to get any pension when we have to stop working at for instance 57 due to medical problems.
This is cheap talk from an union candidate, preparing for the forthcoming social elections in May 2012. Example: one of the reasons why the "patriotic" shareholders don't go for outflagging, is because they find it very unfair towards all non flying staff who cannot benefit outflagging (and who earn already far less then cockpit crew).

Thanks for being so honnest to admit that it's your aim to hurt your employer and the who airline & travel trade, and not the government.

Passenger
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Re: Belgium 30/01/2012 Strike

Post by Passenger »

information from Jet Airways on the strike:
http://www.jetairways.com/NL/EU/Product ... ation.aspx

LJ
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Re: Belgium 30/01/2012 Strike

Post by LJ »

Passenger wrote:On topic: check the Dutch forums: Jet Airways gets the red carpet at Amsterdam tomorrow. "Rumours are that they're thinking to move their hub to AMS", many say. From where?
Come on, those rumors come from persons who also mentioned that Jet would start AMS-BOM/DEL this Winter (and we all know how that ended). Yes, 9W goes to AMS tomorrow (BTW handling agent will be KLM), but tomorrow also shows that AMS cannot handle the 9W hub. The first wave (arrival 11:00 dep 13:00) has to use bus gates because there is no room for 3 additional A332s during the morning rush hour... Thus BRU doesn't have to fear much from AMS.

The only positive thing for AMS is that is may mean they'll manage to reach the landmark 50 million pax this year (and become again the 3rd largest airport in Europe)
tangolima wrote:MST:
JAF 1357 to ALC
JAF 1853 to AGP
JAF 1213 to TFS
JAF 103 to SDQ and PUJ


I see a top year for MST coming.... A few more all day strikes in Belgium and 2012 will be a record year
tolipanebas wrote: Although it is indeed largely off topic in the grand debade on the general strike next Monday, it is much more on topic than you may think in relation to aviation.
As I don't live in Belgium, I don't really seem to understand how Belgian politics work (though if I must believe my Belgian colleagues this is something which is also difficult for those living in Belgium). However, I doubt SN can outflag its employees easily. We've seen that FR has had difficulties in France as the courts ruled that when your primary base is in France, French working rules should be followed. Moreover, depending on the tax treaty between countries one may have to pay according to residence or according to the residence of place of work. Outflagging may not always be so beneficial from a tax or social security point of view.

BTW Norwegian is flagging part of its long haul crew in China and Thailand. If you're flagging out your staff why use Ireland? I reckon China is cheaper.

Passenger
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Re: Belgium 30/01/2012 Strike

Post by Passenger »

Please don't withhold relevant information :

1. the decision to divert was only announced last Friday, when the planning for all gates was already made up. Adding 6 x A333's wasn't possible on such short notice.

2. the 3 midday outgoings from Jet Airways do get each a gate at the E-Pier:

9W0225/0225 11:00/13:00 JFK-AMS-MAA A14/E72 en G12/E72 VT-JWL 332.
9W0227/0227 11:00/13:00 EWR-AMS-BOM A14/E75 en G14/E75 VT-JWG 332.
9W0229/0229 11:00/13:00 YYZ-AMS-DEL A14/E77 en G16/E77 VT-JWD 332.
9W0226/0226 13:00/15:00 MAA-AMS-JFK E09/E09 332.
9W0228/0228 13:00/15:00 BOM-AMS-EWR E17/E17 332.
9W0230/0230 13:00/15:00 DEL-AMS-YYZ E19/E19 332.

Nevihta
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Re: Belgium 30/01/2012 Strike

Post by Nevihta »

Some might be surprised on who is going to work tomorrow and not...

Air Key West
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Re: Belgium 30/01/2012 Strike

Post by Air Key West »

Passenger wrote:So you think that Jet Airways did his investment in Brussels Airport just for fun?
No, they chose BRU because it was a better option than AMS as long as they are not in an alliance or join Skyteam. I'm sure 9W did some shopping around before making a decision ; so, BRU was and remains the best option. It's not because of a strike that 9W would leave BRU. If BRU were closed down tomorrow because of the fog and 9W flights would be diverted to AMS, SPL would also bend over backwards to give them the red carpet treatment. Only, this time, since the strike was announced well ahead of time, SPL had time to prepare their seduction plan for a potential Skyteam member. 9W will only leave BRU if they join Sky or fly nonstop (or go bankrupt, but I don't want to consider that possibility).
Passenger wrote:The brainwashing by your union has clearly worked.
Be careful when making (groundless) assumptions. For your information, I don't belong to a union, because I am self-employed. I will loose some money tomorrow, but I can live with that, because I understand that some categories of workers have to react and act in reponse to Mr Q's plans. I know the general trend everywhere is to make us work longer, because our governments need to show the EU and the IMF they are looking for remedies to budget deficits, but is it not a contradiction to make "older" workers work longer while often young people cannot find jobs ? An extreme example : Spain : 22 % overall unemployment, 50 % youth unemployment (I don't have the figures for Belgium, I admit, but let young people work and let older workers retire like before with full benefits for which they have paid).
Last edited by Air Key West on 29 Jan 2012, 21:32, edited 1 time in total.
In favor of quality air travel.

liege-bierset
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Re: Belgium 30/01/2012 Strike

Post by liege-bierset »

LJ wrote:
I see a top year for MST coming.... A few more all day strikes in Belgium and 2012 will be a record year
:?: :?: :?: On Line crystal Ball ?

Air Key West
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Re: Belgium 30/01/2012 Strike

Post by Air Key West »

Oh, I forgot, but tolipanebas could explain this much better than me. When you write, Passenger, that outflagging of crew is unfair to non flying staff, you seem to forget that ground staff have not got their own funded pension scheme seized by the government and more specifically Mr Q (although it's hard, i'll refrain from any political comment, since this is not a political forum).
In favor of quality air travel.

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tolipanebas
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Re: Belgium 30/01/2012 Strike

Post by tolipanebas »

Passenger wrote:This is cheap talk from an union candidate, preparing for the forthcoming social elections in May 2012.
May I suggest you refrain from commenting on anything else but the content of my post?
As Air Key West has already told you, you might be very much mistaken as to whom you're dealing with.
Passenger wrote:One of the reasons why the "patriotic" shareholders don't go for outflagging, is because they find it very unfair towards all non flying staff who cannot benefit from outflagging (and who earn already far less then cockpit crew).
Good to hear we have such compassionate shareholders... :lol:

May I suggest they are then consequent with their own elevation of mind and thus stop whining about the operational cost handicap we most certainly have with airlines that have no objections whatsoever to using the most interesting fiscal regime available to them, also for flightcrews based in CRL for instance?
Passenger wrote:Thanks for being so honnest to admit that it's your aim to hurt your employer and not the government.
Who's talking about a desire to hurt?
I merely hope they get stimulated to finally start thinking outside of their very rigid (Belgian) box.
I thought I'd hear our CEO say he didn't need dreamers? Well, if he still thinks SN to have somewhat of a competitive offer to its flightcrews after this pension reform, he better thinks again... . :mrgreen:

Acid-drop
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Re: Belgium 30/01/2012 Strike

Post by Acid-drop »

beauvechain for the eu summit is almost confirmed.
personally, i'll try to fly to lhr tomorrow afternoon, i'll see....

regi
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Re: Belgium 30/01/2012 Strike

Post by regi »

Nevihta wrote:Some might be surprised on who is going to work tomorrow and not...
Fun is that the union ACV forced their personnel to work tomorrow, and not only to march in Brussels...
http://www.vandaag.be/binnenland/89241_ ... rken-.html
They have to manage the office, not only to check their Facebook or Twitter...
Reason being: their presence is necessary to coordinate the strike.
Seems that the union doesn't know their own history: the biggest strikes of Belgian labourers was in the days that even telephones didn't exist !

:lol:

cnc
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Re: Belgium 30/01/2012 Strike

Post by cnc »

since this is an aviation forum could we maybe stick to the correct iata codes? schiphol is still AMS and not SPL

FlightMate
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Re: Belgium 30/01/2012 Strike

Post by FlightMate »

Regarding the outflagging of crew members, it seems a bit complicated for SN, isn't it?
I thought the tax agreement between Belgium and (a lot of) other countries says that crew members will be taxed where the aircraft are registered (and where the operational management of that airline is located - thus Brussels).

Or could you explain how using wet leasing of crew might work? Would you need a new AOC?
Would the pilots just be employed by an agency like Park?

Flanker
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Re: Belgium 30/01/2012 Strike

Post by Flanker »

FlightMate wrote:Regarding the outflagging of crew members, it seems a bit complicated for SN, isn't it?
I thought the tax agreement between Belgium and (a lot of) other countries says that crew members will be taxed where the aircraft are registered (and where the operational management of that airline is located - thus Brussels).

Or could you explain how using wet leasing of crew might work? Would you need a new AOC?
Would the pilots just be employed by an agency like Park?
I can shed some light.
If you can reach an agreement with your CAA, you could work with a contracting scheme.
However, in such case the crews would still be taxed in Belgium as the workplace and permanent residence is here under the general 6 months rule. There is however a loophole, not sure if it bears more weight than the place of work rule, that allows crews of ships and aircraft to file their personal taxes (this does generally not ijclude social contributions that are paid in country of residence.) in the country of registration of the aircraft.

The uk have closed that loophole.

5.6 Where you are a seafarer or a member of an aircraft crew, we normally treat your duties
as performed in the UK if
• the voyage or flight does not extend to a place outside the UK, or
• you are resident in the UK and the voyage or flight begins or ends in the UK, or
• you are resident in the UK and embarked on part of a voyage or flight which
begins or ends in the UK.
(...)
5.7 Whether duties you perform in the UK are ‘incidental’ to your overseas duties
(paragraph 5.5) depends on all the circumstances. If the work you do in the UK is of the
same kind as, or of similar importance to, the work that you do abroad, it will not be
merely incidental unless it can be shown to be ancillary or subordinate to that work. It is
normally the nature of the duties performed in the UK rather than the amount of time
spent on them that is important, but if the total time you spend working in the UK is
more than 91 days in a year, the work will not be treated as incidental. Examples of
duties which we do not normally regard as incidental are
• attendance at directors’ meetings in the UK by a director of the company who
normally works abroad

• visits to the UK as a member of the crew of a ship or aircraft

• visits to the UK in the course of work by a courier.


And otherwise it's possible to register an aircraft in Ireland, like Alitalia does.
Ireland is the sole EU member who has ratified the the Cape Town treaty allowing it to keep aircraft leased out by Irish entities to foreign carriers, under its jurisdiction.
The advantage is that it allows to cut leasing costs to lessee and risk to lessor, by reducing administrative and legal jibber jabber in case of payment default by the lessee.

A wetlease could be considered but it depends if you can work around the residence and place of work limitations.

Ryanair is getting away with it because its flight crews are self-employed in Ireland, selling services through the intermediary Brookfield and operating aircraft registered in Ireland, for a company headquartered in Dublin. Depending on the law in Belgium, any variation from this combination could make it unworkable.
Theoretically, Ryanair's practices are not very legal as their way of working conflicts with the definition of self-employment in Belgium...

Here's an idea for mr Q: get back the lost income tax revenue and employer social contributions from Ryanair. On the other hand, Ryanair is much cheaper than SN, which is good for a lot of low income households, so I dont give a d+mn about a few higher income pilots contributing more and accepting to work for much less. There are thousands of motivated jobless pilots swarming around in the Benelux to replace each one of them.
Irony is: a lot of SN staff are part of that group of low income households who use Ryanair, despite so-called "staff rates". Even at those discounted fares, Ryanair plays out cheaper especially when travelling with family, and offers more options of destinations.

Passenger
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Re: Belgium 30/01/2012 Strike

Post by Passenger »

cnc wrote:since this is an aviation forum could we maybe stick to the correct iata codes? schiphol is still AMS and not SPL
Thanks for correcting me, but I already knew AMS is the IATA code (long time ago, I've done the IATA exam at Galileo Belgium - hi Eddy!). But on that Dutch aviation forum, they use SPL as normal abbreviation for Amsterdam Schiphol. And contrary to others, I didn't want to change a direct quote - hence my addition "(Schiphol)" to their "SPL".

LJ
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Re: Belgium 30/01/2012 Strike

Post by LJ »

cnc wrote:since this is an aviation forum could we maybe stick to the correct iata codes? schiphol is still AMS and not SPL
Technically SPL is the railway Station at AMS :)

It doesn't seem as if the strike has much effect on BRU (if you look at the BRU website). 9W, UA, QR have canceled their flights (as other flights). The IB flights would have been canceled anyway (pilot strike at IB). Cargo seems more affected, but this can also be due to lack of cargo

airazurxtror
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Re: Belgium 30/01/2012 Strike

Post by airazurxtror »

According to the newpapers websites, Charleroi is closed today.

Acid-drop
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Re: Belgium 30/01/2012 Strike

Post by Acid-drop »

airazurxtror wrote:According to the newpapers websites, Charleroi is closed today.
They closed it to not take any risk, ryanair style.

BRU is working decently...

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