Public strike on Thursday 22 Dec: what about BRU?

[tolipanebas]

Excuse me, but isn't it normal people strongly oppose this 'change' which actually amounts to a legalized hold-up on some categories of working people, notably flight crew?

If this goes through, pilots will only be able to retire after a minimum of 42 years of service and will be entitled to a full pension only after 45 years of service: now, not only does that mean NO pilot is ever going to be able to qualify for the full pension (which probably was the aim, as this reform is ment to save money) yet far more worrying is that most pilots will not even get the mimimum work period to qualify for 'early retirement' by the time they hit the max legal age to work as a pilot!!!
Indeed, it seems the governement has forgotten there's an internationally imposed maximum legal age for airline pilots and this pension reform isn't compatible with that internationally imposed age, to the point even where people will hit the legal age and thus no longer be allowed to work, yet will not qualify for a pension either! The question what happens in that case remains unanwered so far!

Yet, what is more, until now pilots paid an extra premium to be able to take their pension earlier, so it's not like we were getting something for free there, quite on the contrary even. With this reform the possibility to take our retirement earlier than under the standard pension scheme is done away with, albeit without giving back any of the additional premiums paid so far! Now, what bank or private pension fund can just say after you've paid contributions to it for maybe 20 years: bad luck, they are all lost and void now!?!

And more shocking even: the Belgian governement currently is not even willing to put an end to the extra payments we have to make to be allowed to stop earier, meaning we'd have to stay paying an extra premium to participate in something which would have been discontinued already!

This reform is really ill-considered and indeed it's yet another piece of 'bric-a-brac' legislation from this coalition, just as we were warned for: It's really nothing but a legalized hold-up!

And still some think a strike is not justified, because it may ruin their daytrip? Excuse me, but this government is ruining our life for the sake of nothing but an idiologic mantra that no exceptions whatsoever should be made anymore...Oh, wait, train drivers will still be allowed to retire at 55, so just so we get this right: to drive a train one-dimentionally along train tracks you are completely unfit at 56, yet to fly a plane on intercontinental routes, accumulating jet lag and cosmic radiation on duties of 14 hours and more, there's no problem even at 70??

Silly? Well, that's exactly what the Belgian government proposed in their plan, even though ICAO seems to disagree with them, but what does ICAO know about it all, right?

[regi]

understood.

[BrightCedars]

Are there any details on how movements will be affected or not tomorrow at the airport?

I'm due to fly tomorrow and my airline has so far told me that the flight would operate into and out of BRU.

However, if as some hint there will be a strike by ATC or by the fire brigade, I'm afraid the airport will be closed altogether.

Any info so far?

[airazurxtror]

Indeed, it seems the governement has forgotten there's an internationally imposed maximum legal age for airline pilots and this pension reform isn't compatible with that internationally imposed age, to the point even where people will hit the legal age and thus no longer be allowed to work, yet will not qualify for a pension either! The question what happens in that case remains unanwered so far!

That question can be answered quite easily : the pilot will take another job to end his career.
Same as a pilot who loses his license for medical or other reasons, for instance.
A lot of people change jobs because they are not able to do the same job until retirement : professional athletes is the first example that comes to mind, but there are many others.

[Passenger]

There is a lot of nonsense published about the pension changes. Example: there are examples on the general decision, and aviation will be one of them. Belgium will - and has - to respect international legislation. But one fact remains: we all live longer then we did 50 years ago, so the pension system from 50 years ago has to be adapted. It will change for all of us - including me. I have not voted for minister Van Quickenborne, but I agree with that principle. Belgium cannot afford another drunken minister on Pensions who says that pensions are only guarantueed till 2015.

The fact that the unions blame only one minister - and not all political parties from this government - says it all. It's a power play, it's about not accepting the fact that parliament rules. Unions are also very hypocrite: Rudy De Leeuw, chief ABVV, is a member of the politburo from the SPa. And minister Steve Van Ackere, CD&V, is board member of the ACW group which includes the ACV union. Jos Digneffe, union leader ACOD Spoor (railways) is a member of the NMBS board himself, which gives him a nice salary for one meeting a month. And also nice: he has a chauffeur driven company car: good stuff when there are no trains. Just like his ACV counterpart, which is less media happy. So actually, the unions are protesting against themselves. But the system works and low level union delegates also enjoy lots of benefits, so they support their leaders (in their madness).

One fact remains, even if the protest if justified: why the hell have innocent passengers without any link to the government have to pay for it? And we're not talking about "a spoiled daytrip": we're talking about people who have to fly to Southampton or New York or the Caribean for a sea cruise that will not wait for them, people who have booked a group tour in India that will not wait for them, people who have booked a rented car and non refundable hotels, students who want to fly to South America via Madrid to celebrate Christmas with their parents. Who will refund them? A strike is not covered by insurance.

Imagine you have booked a party venue for the wedding of your daughter. You expect 200 guests, dinner and wine have been carefully selected, orchestra is booked, all guests have been invited. And on the morning of D-Day, you hear that the venue is closed. The union says: "because of the anti-smoke policy of the government, the venue has lost 50% of its turnover so they have dismissed half of the staff, including some 55+ people who won't find another job. We protest against these dismissals and we demand a farewell bonus for them, but the owner refuses. We therefore are on a legal strike and the venue is closed tonight. We're sorry for any inconvenience caused".

[BrusselsAirlines]

Imagine you have booked a party venue for the wedding of your daughter. You expect 200 guests, dinner and wine have been carefully selected, orchestra is booked, all guests have been invited. And on the morning of D-Day, you hear that the venue is closed.

A wedding on christmas eve your argumentation makes me laugh. How come you have the time to write all this? A) you are retired. B) you are unemployed C) you are a pilot off duty



Btw Nicely explained Sabenapilot!

[BrusselsAirlines]

Are there any details on how movements will be affected or not tomorrow at the airport?

I'm due to fly tomorrow and my airline has so far told me that the flight would operate into and out of BRU.

However, if as some hint there will be a strike by ATC or by the fire brigade, I'm afraid the airport will be closed altogether.

Any info so far?

I read in the news this morning that Brussels Airlines is offering seats today at no extra charge as long as they are available and on Brussels Airlines flights off course. I sincerely hope you will make it on your journey! Good luck!

[regi]

My Christmas cards will not arrive in time

[LeFreak]

One fact remains, even if the protest if justified: why the hell have innocent passengers without any link to the government have to pay for it?

From what i've heard from some of my colleague flight crew members, those on duty will perform their duties as planned, those who are not on duty will or will not attend the strike in brussels. so we DO care about our pax as this has nothing to do with the airline but with the government. I will also perform my planned duty tomorrow, while still supporting all the actions planned for tomorrow.

[tolipanebas]

Indeed, it seems the governement has forgotten there's an internationally imposed maximum legal age for airline pilots and this pension reform isn't compatible with that internationally imposed age, to the point even where people will hit the legal age and thus no longer be allowed to work, yet will not qualify for a pension either! The question what happens in that case remains unanwered so far!

That question can be answered quite easily : the pilot will take another job to end his career.

Why should we?

Pilots are currently paying an additional 14,12% on top of the normal pension contribution in order to make it possible to retire after just 30 years of service, so in essence pilots are self-sponsoring their eary retirement plan during their own career and they are perfectly willing to continue to do so in future too, so contrary to the overwhelming majority of early retired people in Belgium, our retirement at the age of 55 will not cause any financial problem because we're paying extra for it beforehand, yet the government has made it a purely ideological issue that nobody in Belgium should be able to retire before 62 years of age any longer, not even if he's perfectly willing to pick up ALL the additional costs of his early retirement through paying addtional pension premiums during his entire career.

What's even more shocking is that the government will simply keep all those extra premiums already paid all those years without any return whatsoever and would ideally want us to continue paying them in future too, even after unilaterally ending the pilot pension scheme!

I mean seriously, how much of a punzi scheme do they think they can get away with?

[Squelsh]

LoL twice Reg:).. Difference is tomorrow I'll have to find a way to sneak into my employer's building before the unions can block me while on foot, just like the last 'general strikes'. I'm running out of options and routes:) But I promise you to pass by the FC mail dept if I make it:) Very good to see people like LeFreak and colleagues planning on doing the same while still respecting the union members if they let willing workers do their job
.
But as Cedars says, if the fire dept / airport security personel / -worst case scenario- Belgocontrol unions go on with it.. It all becomes useless and gets passed on at the end of the day.. Forget it for civil aviation.. can't talk for MIL.. I myself hope not to see a Live Human Organ pass by. But I think doctors are smarter than that:)
.
And not even referring to all the double work and waste of energy for all the pax involved as passenger states.. Like with the tickets, flying has become like taking a train or subway. For sure you will find strikes there.. It's just so expensive for all involved at the end of the day.

[BrusselsAirlines]

One fact remains, even if the protest if justified: why the hell have innocent passengers without any link to the government have to pay for it?

From what i've heard from some of my colleague flight crew members, those on duty will perform their duties as planned, those who are not on duty will or will not attend the strike in brussels. so we DO care about our pax as this has nothing to do with the airline but with the government. I will also perform my planned duty tomorrow, while still supporting all the actions planned for tomorrow.

WTF ??? Or how to let your colleagues take care of your future & pension...I read posts like "I'm flying & I am in the sim but...I fully support the strike."

Yeah right. One word for this kind of behaviour but not mentionable on this forum.

[EBBU]

The holdup by our government on the early retirement scheme of pilots and cc is shameful. The argument that the same rules should apply for everyone is a nice soundbite for the politicians but in real life, not every job is the same.
The pilots and cabin crew are the beginning; police, fire, atcos,... They will get to everyone, just one at a time so the public opinion will always turn against 'the few who want to preserve their advantage over all the others'.
Tomorrow, in my opinion, pilots, cc and atcos should show their concerns about the situation but provide the best service possible to get everyone where they need to be. Get your representatives to the talks and not the union representatives because they are controlled by their national leaders and not by your interests.
It is not because an overzealous minister manages to get everyone up in arms that we have to blindly do the same on behalf of the unions. I hope we are all mature enough to make our own decisions and RESPECT the decisions made by the others whether they want to work or strike.

[BrusselsAirlines]

Idd, very important, respect for each others decisions.

Just avoid saying things that just don't match. At least publicly.

[sean1982]

Indeed, it seems the governement has forgotten there's an internationally imposed maximum legal age for airline pilots and this pension reform isn't compatible with that internationally imposed age, to the point even where people will hit the legal age and thus no longer be allowed to work, yet will not qualify for a pension either! The question what happens in that case remains unanwered so far!

That question can be answered quite easily : the pilot will take another job to end his career.

Why should we?

Pilots are currently paying an additional 14,12% on top of the normal pension contribution in order to make it possible to retire after just 30 years of service, so in essence pilots are self-sponsoring their eary retirement plan during their own career and they are perfectly willing to continue to do so in future too, so contrary to the overwhelming majority of early retired people in Belgium, our retirement at the age of 55 will not cause any financial problem because we're paying extra for it beforehand, yet the government has made it a purely ideological issue that nobody in Belgium should be able to retire before 62 years of age any longer, not even if he's perfectly willing to pick up ALL the additional costs of his early retirement through paying addtional pension premiums during his entire career.

What's even more shocking is that the government will simply keep all those extra premiums already paid all those years without any return whatsoever and would ideally want us to continue paying them in future too, even after unilaterally ending the pilot pension scheme!

I mean seriously, how much of a punzi scheme do they think they can get away with?

Why should you need to go on retirement at the age of 55? Tell me what a 55-year old captain can do that a 65-year old cannot? I agree that pilots near their pension should be compensated for all contributions they made during their career, anybody else should just except reality and work longer. Or, I ask again, would you rather end up with an italian or greek pension in a few years??

[convair]

To EBBU,

I agree with you. Let's stop the paranoïa! We all know that, in Belgium, it is always possible to negotiate for special situations. The gov. needed to pass legislation before yearend, so no wonder it's a bit rough. However, I would bet that special cases and situations (like c/c and pilots and probably many others) will find a solution in the coming weeks/months. No need to go over the top!

In the present economic circumstances, strikes can only make matters worse; so the unions should moderate their affiliates i.s.o. excite them as they do.

The public sector people who will go on strike are priviledged people: they have a job and enjoy more than fair pensions (much higher than in the private sector btw). They are crying with their mouth full!

The reality is very simple: we live longer, so we NEED to work longer to pay for our pensions; is that so difficult to understand?

[sn26567]

From Brussels Airport:

With the current information available, we do not expect Brussels Airport to be closed tomorrow. Pay attention: most probably there will be no public transport throughout Belgium.

From Brussels Airlines:

At the moment all our flights are still scheduled as planned on 22 December.

Free of charge rebooking for flights on the 22nd of December will be extended to a later date within the original ticket validity, meaning you can know also rebook your original flight to a later date than 26 or 30 December!

... and also:

Dear passengers,

Our sincere apologies for the long waiting times at our call center at this moment. Our staff is doing everything they can to help you as soon as possible.

Please only contact our call center (+32 (0)2 723 23 62) for rebookings, for any other questions we are here for you on Facebook & Twitter. We'll do our utmost best to answer all your questions as soon as possible.

Thank you for your understanding.

Kind regards,

The Brussels Airlines Social Media Team

[sn26567]

Thomas Cook will not take any risk: customers are expected to come at Brussels Airport, but they will be bussed to Maastricht to catch their planes over there.

[tolipanebas]

Why should you need to go on retirement at the age of 55? Tell me what a 55-year old captain can do that a 65-year old cannot?

Doesn't matter why really, as long as we are paying for it ourselves.
There's a huge difference between all those people who took unplanned early retirement at the expense of society, and those few who were able to take a pre-planned early retirement at their own expenses, isn't it?

The pilot pension scheme is a fully self-supportive scheme, funded with additional payments by pilots in order to allow them retiring earlier than is normally the case, so the only reason why our government wants to end the pilot pension scheme nevertheless is:
1- to end a ideologically disturbing exception which they have a hard time explaining;
2- to transfer all the savings to the loss making general pension scheme, which is in dire need of extra funding.

Or, I ask again, would you rather end up with an italian or greek pension in a few years??

FWIW, I don't want to participate in any pension scheme at all really, but since I am forced to do so, I prefer to participate in a scheme from which I will be able to benefit some day, something which is not possible any longer with these proposals. Better to outflag us in future, which I think is not the aim, as that means no more taxes from us at all. Belgian maritime companies did it a decade ago after the government messed with them, seems like the airlines will have to do the same.

Look, all active pilots have already put loads of money into their additional pension plan -imagine the money after for instance 15 or 20 years of service, paying a monthly additional pension contribution of up to 14,12%-, only to hear now that their additional legal pension scheme is being ended with immediate effect and without any recompensation whatsoever for all those payments made in the past???
If a privately run pension fund or a bank would do the same to your personal savings, you'd be the first to sue them and rightfully so, yet when the government does this, it's suddenly all right? All paid premiums must be honoured, period, if not then Mr. Q. better shuts up about honouring all commitments from the past, he's lying.

[convair]

To Tolipanebas,

Pilots live longer too, so they should work longer as well. But not necessarily as pilots: your high level education surely enables you to fill a lot of nice positions.

Now, regarding your 14,12 % (of what exactly?) additional pension contribution, it should obviously be taken into account and I bet (as I said earlier) that it eventually will.

I usually appreciate your reasonnable posts but in the present case I think you should cool down a bit and prepare your arguments fo a negotiation between your union(s) and the gov.