brussels airlines to New York!

[Flanker]

Brightcedar, IMO BOS is too small to operate on a stand-alone basis now that the market's already saturated with European airlines and others. From Wikipedia:

Busiest International Routes from Logan (2009–2010) [18]
Rank Airport Passengers Carriers
1 London (Heathrow), United Kingdom 866,719 American, British Airways, Delta, Virgin Atlantic
2 Paris (Charles de Gaulle), France 335,602 Air France, American, Delta
3 Frankfurt, Germany 246,253 Lufthansa
4 Toronto (Pearson), Canada 215,895 Air Canada, Air Canada Express, American Eagle
5 Amsterdam, Netherlands 210,873 Delta
6 Dublin, Ireland 158,196 Aer Lingus
7 Munich, Germany 140,846 Lufthansa
8 Zurich, Switzerland 137,084 Swiss
9 Rome (Fiumicino), Italy 129,883 Alitalia
10 Aruba 118,186 JetBlue
11 Reykjavík, Iceland 105,640 Iceland Express, Icelandair
12 Bermuda 102,387 Delta, JetBlue
13 Shannon, Ireland 96,211 Aer Lingus
14 Madrid, Spain 91,505 Iberia
15 Montréal, Canada 87,240 Air Canada Express
16 Cancún, Mexico 85,788 Delta, JetBlue, US Airways
17 Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic 73,932 JetBlue
18 Toronto (Billy Bishop), Canada 72,051 Porter Airlines
19 Ponta Delgada, Portugal 58,976 SATA International
20 Halifax, Canada 51,881 Air Canada Express

It could be sustainable (barely) if combined with YYZ and with a compromise with AC, for instance to alternate frequencies between them.

SFO is weird at best to even consider, especially with A332's.
With A343's and in combination with LAX it could be considered but I doubt that it would make any money at all. The problem for these routes is that there are also already so many European airlines flying it that most customers will be the few O&D's who are willing to pay a fortune for a direct ticket and connecting pax from other cities in Europe who are looking for the cheapest fares.

I've been giving many presents around here (no santa smiley?), one of them being the potential of a European regional hub.
If you can connect small secondary cities like NTE, LUX, Lille, RTM, AMS, etc... with BRU, you significantly enhance your higher-yield revenue potential for connecting long-haul traffic.
If you can do that, then even JFK could become a money-maker.

Without such feeding from smaller but still large secundary European cities, the only U.S. route I can see making money is (and I've been saying this for a very long time) DEN and maybe (big maybe) IAH.

There's an ongoing discussion about DEN: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forum ... n/5312793/

[DeltaWiskey]

If you can connect small secondary cities like NTE, LUX, Lille, RTM, AMS, etc... with BRU,

You forget ANR and OST :angel:

I mean, seriously?

[Flanker]

If you can connect small secondary cities like NTE, LUX, Lille, RTM, AMS, etc... with BRU,

You forget ANR and OST :angel:

I mean, seriously?

Ask yourself the question with the following example:
I'm a businessman living in Douais, outside Lille.
I commute everyday to my job in Lille and next week I have a sales call in Manhattan where I have to stay 4 days.

My options are as follows:

Air France: My wife drops me off at the station in Lille in the morning before she heads to her job.
My ticket is from Lille all the way to JFK, to CDG with the TGV, to JFK on a brand new A380.

SN: I have to drive 2 hours in traffic in the morning to BRU, pay 4 days at 10€ per day to leave my BMW in a suspicious parking spot. I have to leave early because if my car breaks down or there is an accident on the way, I risk losing my flight. Same thing on the return trip.
Oh, I save 150€ on my ticket but my car trip is going to cost me 30-40 euro return and my parking is going to cost 40-50€ and I have to fly on an old A330 and it's not a French company. PFFFFFF

My proposal: My wife drops me off at the airport in Lille in the morning before she heads to her job.
My ticket is from Lille all the way to JFK via BRU, to BRU with a Q400, to JFK on an old A330. But I save 120€ on my economy ticket or 500€ on my business ticket and my luggage is checked all the way to JFK.

Guess what I would choose...

If you want to attract connecting traffic for long-haul from secundary cities where AF-KL have a monopoly and where they use that monopoly to take advantage with super high fares, a regional strategy is very attractive.
That's even smarter than flying into AF and KL's hubs to steal pax for Africa, because there you can only fight with frequencies (which SN can't compete on) or price.

Is it too difficult to understand?
I have the feeling that anything beyond pont to point is a bit of a challenge to process?
It's not the distance that matters, what matters is why the customer should book with you and not with another carrier.
BRU is well-positioned but if you don't make use of it because it's "too close", what's the point then?

[Airbus330lover]

Ah ok 1 Q400 for you monthly trip form Lille to JFK ?
You're creasy

[Air Key West]

I think that we've had this discussion before already, so I'll try to come up with something new. From Lille, what about b.air entering into a partnership agreement with the TGV (French High Speed Train) similar to what is being done with Thalys between Paris and BRU ?

[DeltaWiskey]

@Flanker: Seriously, you spend far too much time on the internet...

1) A business man doesn't chose one airline over the other, it's done for him... (unless he is self-employed)
2) No way SN can compete with AF on a route like LIL-BRU-JFK vs (subsidized) TGV->CDG-JFK on an A380.
3) SN can't compete on long haul with AF, certainly not outside Africa. SN's longhaul network is far to small to justify risky plays like LIL.
4) TGV in combination with A380 is faster than LIL-BRU-JFK on SN.
5) Competing with trains on such a short distance flights is a bad idea all-together.
6) The French are pretty chauvinistic, they tend to prefer their "own" product (imo).
7) If I was a business man and I had to chose in your little example, it is going to be AF for sure! A380, yay!

[regi]

euh...Lille...
I brought up Lille as a joke for a TP destination to connect it with Zaventem. And NCB took it seriously.

Small remark about Lille: it is notorious for fog...
And the highways around Lille see some very unexpected icy roads especially in this period of the year. ( I do remember a cancelled meeting at Paris some years ago because all traffic around Lille was standing still untill afternoon )

But still...Lille is a small gem that should be used more for regional traffic. But please, NCB, please do not try to sell a Q400 to Brussels Airlines (and receive some commission?) , based on a business model Lille-Brussels.

[regi]

If you can connect small secondary cities like NTE, LUX, Lille, RTM, AMS, etc... with BRU,

You forget ANR and OST :angel:

I mean, seriously?

hold on second: we have a marvellous landing strip at Ursel !
And if it really needs to be a civilian airport, try Wevelgem ( Kortrijk )

[cathay belgium]

I wanna go also.. EBKH/Keiheuvel with twin-otter !
But isn't KLM doing the same with BRU with their BRU-AMS flights ?
If CDG-LHR is served why not AMS-Lille-LUX-( competition of Eurostar ? )
But if I have to start ops.. LUX first , then AMS,... Lille,... RTM no way
But I guess these short hauls aren't that good as we saw more of them suspended then re-opened..
maybe just have to wait in wich way/direction the economy and europe will bounce..
( guess there will be a moratorium on very short hauls in the very near future.. eco ?
But you just have to look for the right spot to fish IMO...
CX-B

[azingrew]

A musician friend of mine living in Roubaix travelled to the US 3 times in the last 4 month. Everytime from BRU. Not everybody is a business man and prices are still the n°1 criteria for most people. He did BRU- JFK with JET, BRU-EWR-LAS with CO/UA and BRU-JFK-FLL with AA. In every case, BRU was cheaper than CDG. But interestingly also quicker to get to than CDG if your plane leaves from CDG T1. Lille Europe - Brussels midi ( 32') - BRU ( 20' ) as opposed to Lille Europe -CDG2 ( 52') CDG2-CDG1 ( Bus ) 20'. Flying with AF or DL is a different story ( all flights from CDG2).

[Passenger]

Now that New York is announced as SN's first destination in the US (JFK seems to be the preferred choice but EWR is not excluded), and that SN is declaring that it wants to fly more longhaul (I have to say that with the weakening euro it's a good time to increase your dollar accounts), which do you think would be SN's next USA destination? Is SFO really a possibility as it was mentioned in the early days of this going West campaign?
Other than that I only see BOS as a destination that could plug into the puzzle quite well with Star Alliance and other partners (9W,...).

Indeed : it's not to be found on internet or wikipedia, but Boston should be the next destination in the US.

I remember long time ago, when yield management wasn't invented yet and we were still talking in PEX, APEX, gross ticket prices and those things, a discussion with M., Boston's station manager. "We do better then JFK", he told me. Same applied for VG Airlines, although they didn't make it into annual statistics.

[tolipanebas]

You can put YUL very high on your do do list too, even with AC on the route.

I've said it numerous times: the decision not to open YUL years ago -when all was ready for its launch- is one of the many massive strategic mistakes SN has made in the past, especially in the light of the current decision to focus more on long haul! YUL should have been opened years ago, rather than wasting time on the integration of VEX, of which soon nothing will be around any longer: not the name, not the pax, not the fleet, not the destinations! Nothing! The merger with VEX was a complete waste of time as was widely said here at the time itself...

[Flanker]

Indeed : it's not to be found on internet or wikipedia, but Boston should be the next destination in the US.

I remember long time ago

Once upon a time, bla bla bla.
Boston was a good route a very long time ago, before BA, LH, AF, LX came to have a piece of the pie.
I'm sorry Brightcedars, I like many of your idea's and the way you keep an open mind, but this one is a head-shaker.

euh...Lille...
I brought up Lille as a joke for a TP destination to connect it with Zaventem. And NCB took it seriously.

Lille was brought up way waaaaay before you did. I take it very seriously, because SomeoNe's market share in Lille, despite being closer to BRU than CDG, is almost non-existant.
If a passenger from Lille has to go to GVA, you will arrive to Geneva with your car before your drive, check-in and board your flight in BRU.

I think that we've had this discussion before already, so I'll try to come up with something new. From Lille, what about b.air entering into a partnership agreement with the TGV (French High Speed Train) similar to what is being done with Thalys between Paris and BRU ?

That is the most obvious thing to do. The line is there, you only have to make sure pax can book a codeshare train ride and that the train's willing to stop at BRU.
BUT... things moooooooooove veeeeeeeeery sloooooooowly.
Too much time spent chasing coffee and telling their life tales or networking or kissing *ss or playing CIA.
I think that it's reasonable to start with a twice daily flight, to see how it goes. That way you have numbers to support a request for a cooperation with TGV or Thalys.

Ah ok 1 Q400 for you monthly trip form Lille to JFK ?
You're creasy

Me and my 4 million neighbors of Nord-Pas-De-Calais?
Huge catchment area for Africa.

A musician friend of mine living in Roubaix travelled to the US 3 times in the last 4 month. Everytime from BRU. Not everybody is a business man and prices are still the n°1 criteria for most people. He did BRU- JFK with JET, BRU-EWR-LAS with CO/UA and BRU-JFK-FLL with AA. In every case, BRU was cheaper than CDG. But interestingly also quicker to get to than CDG if your plane leaves from CDG T1. Lille Europe - Brussels midi ( 32') - BRU ( 20' ) as opposed to Lille Europe -CDG2 ( 52') CDG2-CDG1 ( Bus ) 20'. Flying with AF or DL is a different story ( all flights from CDG2).

Azingrew, if I analyse your data you will understand that we're talking about the same thing.
1.
BRU is cheaper than CDG regarding BRU-USA travel because it's oversaturated compared to CDG (All America loves Paris and France loves America. America doesn't know Belgium exists and where it is). This proves my point that it's highly doubtful that SN will make the big bucks with their new routes in the U.S.
2.
AF is expensive for travel from Lille area, including Roubaix. They can afford to ask for big money because they have a monopoly there. Most people book them anyway and if not, they're low yield pax and AF is not interested in them. Low yield pax are generally young or low net worth people who will be willing to drive to BRU or take an intercity train and run around with luggage at Bruxelles-midi, but pax with a better budget and corporate don't give a damn about a few hundred euro's if it saves them all that hassle.

The 45+ generation hold 90% of wealth in the U.S. and similar numbers in Europe.
The 55-99 years hold 61% of wealth.
Those are the high-yield pax that you have to convince to fly with you.

Lower fares are important for this group as well, but more than anything, it's about having a smooth trip.

I remind that this is on-topic as it relates to the discussion of the success of the New York and other USA flights.

[Flanker]

You can put YUL very high on your do do list too, even with AC on the route.

I've said it numerous times: the decision not to open YUL years ago -when all was ready for its launch- is one of the many massive strategic mistakes SN has made in the past, especially in the light of the current decision to focus more on long haul! YUL should have been opened years ago, rather than wasting time on the integration of VEX, of which soon nothing will be around any longer: not the name, not the pax, not the fleet, not the destinations! Nothing! The merger with VEX was a complete waste of time as was widely said here at the time itself...

YUL can be a hit indeed. I don't see AC moving their butt for SN, it's definitely a missed opportunity.
VEX is a tough story to defend. With all the information publicly available today, one can indeed say that it was a huge mistake. Without the info, from outside it seemed like SN and VEX were lynching each other for European pax and that the merger created a welcome situation of decreased competition.
The CEO of SN back then should have known better.

[Darjeeling]

You can put YUL very high on your do do list too, even with AC on the route.

I've said it numerous times: the decision not to open YUL years ago -when all was ready for its launch- is one of the many massive strategic mistakes SN has made in the past, especially in the light of the current decision to focus more on long haul! YUL should have been opened years ago, rather than wasting time on the integration of VEX, of which soon nothing will be around any longer: not the name, not the pax, not the fleet, not the destinations! Nothing! The merger with VEX was a complete waste of time as was widely said here at the time itself...

You're 500% right (as almost usual ).

That and many many other key strategic (non) decisions. SN lost 5 years of momentum in Africa as well when the market was still open. Instead they kept believing fighting Ryanair with fuel thristy Avros was the best thing to do... We know what's next. A chance SN has been integrated in Star since then.

[tolipanebas]

BRU is cheaper than CDG regarding BRU-USA travel because it's oversaturated compared to CDG This proves my point that it's highly doubtful that SN will make the big bucks with their new routes in the U.S.

Yet SN's flight to New York isn't aimed at the Belgian market, but rather the African market transiting through Europe on their way to New York, so it's mostly irrelevant how big local demand from Belgium will be for this flight... Compare it to the daily BRU-YYZ flight which 9W is running successfully thanks to the fact it has ample feed coming in from India, notwithstanding the very low intake of pax at BRU.

SN is not launching BRU-JFK, but rather DLA-JFK, FIH-JFK, LAD-JFK, LFW-JFK, COO-JFK etc. all with a stopover in BRU. THAT is the real market; any sec BRU-JFK ticket sold is just to fill up the plane, similar to how 9W is filling its BRU-YYZ up.

[Passenger]

Indeed : it's not to be found on internet or wikipedia, but Boston should be the next destination in the US.

I remember long time ago, when yield management wasn't invented yet and we were still talking in PEX, APEX, gross ticket prices and those things, a discussion with M., Boston's station manager. "We do better then JFK", he told me. Same applied for VG Airlines, although they didn't make it into annual statistics.

Once upon a time, bla bla bla.
Boston was a good route a very long time ago, before BA, LH, AF, LX came to have a piece of the pie.
I'm sorry Brightcedars, I like many of your idea's and the way you keep an open mind, but this one is a head-shaker.

I can imagine that for someone like you - who has discovered aviation only few months ago - the Sabena era is something from the past: it's the previous century - the time when you were still going to school in short pants. So I can't really blame you for not knowing that competition on Boston was much severe "very long time ago" then it is nowadays. Same applies for VG Airlines - apparently unknown to you. Same applies for your new superb destinations: Houston and Denver.

I'm sorry Brightcedars

Just like I'm doing now, you are always manipulating quotes. Result: wrong quotes. Therefore, if you click on the "Quote" button, please do not manipulate these quotes.

[Flanker]

Indeed : it's not to be found on internet or wikipedia, but Boston should be the next destination in the US.

I remember long time ago, when yield management wasn't invented yet and we were still talking in PEX, APEX, gross ticket prices and those things, a discussion with M., Boston's station manager. "We do better then JFK", he told me. Same applied for VG Airlines, although they didn't make it into annual statistics.

Once upon a time, bla bla bla.
Boston was a good route a very long time ago, before BA, LH, AF, LX came to have a piece of the pie.
I'm sorry Brightcedars, I like many of your idea's and the way you keep an open mind, but this one is a head-shaker.

I can imagine that for someone like you - who has discovered aviation only few months ago - the Sabena era is something from the past: it's the previous century - the time when you were still going to school in short pants. So I can't really blame you for not knowing that competition on Boston was much severe "very long time ago" then it is nowadays. Same applies for VG Airlines - apparently unknown to you. Same applies for your new superb destinations: Houston and Denver.

I'm sorry Brightcedars

Just like I'm doing now, you are always manipulating quotes. Result: wrong quotes. Therefore, if you click on the "Quote" button, please do not manipulate these quotes.

That part of the message is addressed to Brightcedars.
I take a new line without taking a new paragraph, so it's about the same subject (which is the pre-historical success of BOS) but here it's addressed to another person than the one quoted. I can't take a paragraph because if I do, it may seem like a change of subject. Notice also the change of tone, it gives a clue...
This is a discussion of more than one people, same as sitting in a conference room talking to different people and quoting other people and proving points. You're not alone...

[Flanker]

Tolipanebas, I would agree with you if A++ was a real joint-venture, a separate company with its own operational capital, own revenues and aircraft, etc...
But is it? To me it only looks like an alliance within an alliance, that has the benediction of the authorities to do advanced price-fixing to protect the market against Emirates & co.
No, I don't work for EL AL (who's complaining about A++) or EK. It's just how things are.

I would be very surprised to see UA list a SN flight on top of its itinerary search results for a flight U.S. to Europe, even with an onward connection to Africa. I don't think that that is going to happen and I think that UA will keep advertising its EWR-BRU sector until flights are at least break-even. UA relies on its hub at EWR to fill those 777's and if customers generating in the U.S. prefer to do business with UA rather than with an airline that they've never heard of, who's to stop them?

So yes, SN will be selling JFK-BRU-AFI but who's to say that U.S. customers will book their travel to Africa through SN and not through UA or others?

So I will be taking my bag of pop corn, sit in my comfy chair and watch how they will do. The only comforting thing is that there's always a taker for a cheap ticket to New York, a luxury you don't have in BOS.

[regi]

CDG2-CDG1 ( Bus ) 20'..

How did he do that?
My case: I arrive by TGV downstairs at Terminal 2 and have to get to Terminal 1.
First I end up somewhere on an open air terrace, but eventually I succeed with the wallnut brain I have , to find the elevators. Correction: elevator, singular. The second one was broken. Let us say 15 minutes after arrival by TGV.
It took 15 minutes to take the elevator. And why not the stairs next to it? Because I was travelling with luggage, child, wife, and there was no way we could divide ourselves to bring the suitcases upstairs.
OK, finally we are at the busstand. So many people waiting for the bus. 10 minutes. My wife + child board, but I have not time enough to get all luggage inside, and the driver shouts that I have to leave.
So we wait for the next bus. Another 10 minutes. We finally board - with luggage, and are given a nice free bustour of CDG and its dungeons for about 10 minutes.
That makes 15 + 15 + 10 +10 + 10 = 60 minutes: a full hour to get from TGV arrival to Terminal 1.
If I would have been alone, I would have skipped the elevator and been able to take the first bus, saving 25 minutes. So still 35 minutes.
CDG ? Nuke it.