African operations possible with narrow body equipment

[Conti764]

That is a rational post on your part.
Let's hope indeed that LH will buy SN in 2011 and further invest into it...
Star Alliance will be good for traffic in Europe, to raise the load factors, etc... but it seems UA is interested in expanding to Africa on their own so I don't know if SN can rely on that long-term. CO out of EWR could bring some traffic but truly speaking CO will not make the big difference.The next few years are going to be interesting, especially as we see Africa becoming a booming market in pars with India and China. SN would be better off attracting some Chinese Star airlines to BRU, since there is alot of demand for China-Africa traffic.

If SN wants to rely on any Star Alliance market to feed into their African network, it is the North-American market. Chinese passengers have plenty of option to transfer to Africa.

SN will bring lots of value tot UA, CO and US. In no way any of these airlines can offer the same amount of destinations in Africa SN can do from BRU. Sure, some top of the shelf African destinations can sustain a direct service to North-America, but for most they'll have to rely on a European carrier.

Besides, SN can offer them a nice European network to some destinations other alliance partners do not offer.

[sn26567]

How about an MD83 for transcontinental flights?

United Airways of Bangladesh (not to be confused with United Airlines of the United States) has launched its first intercontinental flight - a twice-weekly service from the country capital Dhaka (DAC) to London Gatwick (LGW). The service is operated using an MD83, stopping en route in Dubai (DXB) and Istanbul Sabiha Gökcen (SAW).

[sn-remember]

Strange because I had been studying the Senegal case already about 1 yr ago ..
In theory indeed there is potential for a Etyhad sort of operator.
But it was just a "fun" exercise for me , a bit of dreams also because u need a strong investment (btw Etyhad has still never achieved profit since day1)

Another "fun" exercise I was busy at lately was to restart the defunct AirAfrique.
But differently of course
With 3 hubs : Dakar, Abidjan and Douala.
DKR again ...
And DLA where Sn was involved lately ..

My conclusion :
1. There IS potential (believe me)
2. Lots of synergies and savings possible (I've different ideas on this regard)
2. SN could play a significant role there (but they need to move their asses)
3. Narrow body eqt (B757 for longer hauls, B737 for shorter hauls) IS possible and to me advisable (only alternative would be the B767 for longer hauls but less attractive)
4. The initial investment could be limited to the minimum (meaning profitability is reachable rapidly)

The B757 is to my knowledge the only narrow-body capable for this mission (WAfrica-Europe/ME) and unfortunately not produced anymore ...
The A320 family as well as the B737 family are NOT able to cover a 6 hrs flight with full load ..
Even the B737 900 ER cannot with certainty fly a US transcon flight westwards non stop.
You can simply forget the ER suffix, it's pure commercial lie.

Cargo is NOT an issue (again imho)
Proof has amply been made by a certain Michael O'Leary.

And there is NO guru's in the airline profession .. and certainly not on this forum (makes me laugh
Just a few people who have ideas (like me) and like to discuss them without pretention.

Just my 2cts ?

Saludos
Cristobal

[sn-remember]

And when I say "i've sudied" I mean it.
2 business cases I did
1. The EY model at DKR (but DKR is not AUH ito trafic rights)
2. The reworked "AirAfrique" around 3 "small" hubs

Elaborate business plans with phase 1, phase 2 and phase3 deployments.
A/C needed, routes and timetables
Precise costs is lacking (but can be added) but my intuition is that the "AirAfrique" case (nothing to see with the ineffective dynausore of the past) around 3 hubs sounds definitely the most promising to me

There are of course many things that must be cheked and further analysed ao the crucial question of trafic rights.

[regi]

Dear André,

you caught me here with that launch of a MD-83 flight Dhaka-LGW.
Every few months we hear ghost stories from the Ganges delta. But despite all these rumours, we still don't see any B777 in Biman colours.

Imagine, that MD-83 flight. Must be a horrible flight. If it will happen ...What will be the next idea? A Piper Cup ?

GMG Airlines seems to be more realistic. Regional flights to India, Nepal, Thailand and Malaysia. But no MD-83 to Europe.

[Desert Rat]

I heard that Senegal Airlines would start their operations from Dakar to Paris and Marseille with A319....someone can confirm???

[Kabila]

Afriqiyah has announced that they will start service between Tripoli and Kinshasa, 3 times a week, with A319.

Twice a week, they offer connecting service to BRU with a change of airplane in Tripoli. Their rountrip fares start at 520 euro.

[cathay belgium]

Afriqiyah has announced that they will start service between Tripoli and Kinshasa, 3 times a week, with A319.

Yes.. BUT .. this is intra-AFI travel!
Could they make it to JNB ? Then we're talking about the same.
As already said , it IS possible but from BRU the're more consequences !!

But 520 is half the rate of SN,less comfort but what are the luggage restrictions ?

CX-B

Good news for AFI TRAVELLERS THEN!

PS ETHIOPIAN 620 euro !! better comfort I presume on their 767 !

[cathay belgium]

PS ETHIOPIAN 620 euro !! better comfort I presume on their 767 !

And just read that Ethiopian joins *A !
More AFI - news to follow soon.. I presume.

Could be crowded in the future!

CX_B

[NCB]

I believe that Tripoli-Kinshasa is the same distance as for instance BRU-OUA.
I find this to be so obvious, especially with SN already operating the type and having its own MX facilities, no money to afford widebody expansion, the jobs it will help sustain and the revenue generated.

[NCB]

I want to bring the attention to the following article:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... -with.html

Some interesting paragraphs:

US low-cost carrier Sun Country Airlines has launched its first transatlantic service - an unusual Boeing 737-800 route connecting Minneapolis with London Stansted.

the first time an airline has used 737s on scheduled transatlantic services since the summer of 2007, when Scottish low-cost carrier Flyglobespan operated a 737-700 to Boston from Glasgow and Knock.

Air Canada, however, is using a similarly sized Airbus A319 this summer to London Heathrow from St. John's.

Air Canada's westbound flight going through NATS is about the same air distance as BRU-OUA and there you can speak of a real ETOPS flight.

If a B737-800 that has slightly less range than an A320 can do Gander-Stansted, then an A319 with the right MTOW that has more range than an A320 can do BRU-ACC.

It's not that easy but it's not that hard either.

[LJ]

IB does Madrid-Dakar/Lagos/Malabo with 319 and 321. Though possible I doubt passenger would prefer these flight. Especially the business class pax will want to have a descent seat comparable to the lie flats many widebody aircraft have. However this requires a dedicated fleet and very high yield pax as the number of pax will decrease a lot. This means that this is only viable when you have these high yielding pax (thus not VFR traffic)

BTW Arik is reported to fly LGW-Lagos with a 737-800 for the time being as their A350 is going to fly to Johannesburg during the Wolrd Cup.

[RoMax]

Air Canada's westbound flight going through NATS is about the same air distance as BRU-OUA and there you can speak of a real ETOPS flight.

If a B737-800 that has slightly less range than an A320 can do Gander-Stansted, then an A319 with the right MTOW that has more range than an A320 can do BRU-ACC.

It's not that easy but it's not that hard either.

I think it's already said many many times before. Off course it's possible to operate A319 to AFI. But it's only on a good plan to operate an A319 to very few destinations. It's possible that SN will operate A319 to AFI, but only to 1-2-3 maybe even 4 destinations, but never in the way you are thinking about (a large amount of A319 flights).

[Bralo20]

as their A350 is going to fly to Johannesburg during the Wolrd Cup.

Wow, did Airbus allready deliver a A350?

[cnc]

i think he ment the new A332

[regi]

Well, we have already narrow bodies flying to Africa. Egypt Air for example.
And Air Maroc.
But this is not what NCB is trying to defend/promote/bring to our attention.

How small do you want to go? There are Falcons tri-jets flying between Europe and Africa, especially between Switzerland and African nations. Money. A pallet of dollars is cargo as well.
But this is also not where it goes about.

Feasability, profitability. It are companies. And the purpose of a company is to make profit.
Dear NCB: if a company came to the conclusion that they would make bigger profit by using narrow bodies instead of wide bodies on medium -long haul African destinations , I am sure that they all would do it immediately.
Seems that those managers have some spread sheets that show some different numbers than your proposals - how well meant they may be.
But...who knows? Niche markets such as those trans atlantic business flyers. Maybe some charter destinations with tourists who don't carry their entire house hold. Possible. Let the managers decide. It is their job. Future will tell.

[Flanker]

Given recent developments within the SN strategy, I think that it's interesting to reopen this discussion.
Some people here mentioned the B757-200 as a better alternative for SN's LR ops over A319 operations.

I'm starting to see this as an increasingly viable option for SN's further long-haul fleet development.

The B757-200's are becoming increasingly attractive for the following reasons:
- Lease rates are decreasing due to decreasing residual values. According to sources on the web, these now vary between 120k and 225k USD. Comparatively, the A321 leases for anywhere between 200k-400k USD;
- Fuel burn is attractive with around 3.5 tons per hour;
- Payload-range chart is attractive with a 24 ton capability on 7000km+ range;
- Can later on be replaced by A321NEO

I can see a meaningful use of a small fleet of 10 aircraft within SN's network, to serve new destinations in Canada, U.S., African East Coast, to de-triangulate some A333 routes in West-Africa and to re-deploy the A330's on new triangles in Africa and start destinations in latin America and Asia.



Cargo volume is on the shallow side, but sufficient in a 182 pax, (16C/166Y) United 757 configuration to carry a high density cargo payload of 5 to 10 tons, depending on the load factor of the flight.

It would also allow to have more flexibility within the entire fleet in order to cover for aircraft on maintenance or exceptional events like we saw this year in DKR and ABJ.

SN needs to grow long-haul
Let's hope that the come of LH will facilitate this kind of expansion.

[cnc]

untill the A321NEO is on the market the 757 will remain a very wanted bird.
also SN doesn't operate the 767 so this would mean introducing a new aircraft type for just a couple years.
its a shame but it ain't gonna happen.
i'm still hoping to see some A343's for south africa/america

[euroflyer]

somehow I can just not believe that a LH subsidiary (and I am sure soon SN will be 100% LH) would start introducing this 'brand new' bird 757 (which as far as I am aware is not used anywhere in the LH group.) If there is anything to come than it might be additional 330s or some 340s and maybe, maybe if the economy does perfect again some time soon and LH has some 744s to many after receiving all their 380s and 748s one could dream in that direction. Everything else - in my opinion useless to discuss any further

[rwandan-flyer]

Arik will serve LHR with B737-800s, from Lagos, replacing A340-500s