Emirates vs. the rest : Der Spiegel Online

[DeltaWiskey]

EK may pretent to be a profitable venture, but it has been demonstrated several times already by international studies that if would EK be based in the EU, US or in fact in any industrialized country, it would have been out of business long time already due to massive losses unless it would increase its yield (and thus ticket prices) by at least 30%, something which is simply impossible because then they lose their competitive advantage.

Sources please, and real ones, no 'self-claimed' analysts and journalists articles, but real scientific studies.
30% really seems a lot to me...

Don't buy all the blabla about DXB, DOH or AUH being so exceptionally centrally located in the world: DXB is just as centrally located as any other place along the axis from LHR to SYD really: ATH is just as conveniently located globally for instance.

Certainly not, EK is based in somewhat the middle between Australasia and Europe, therefore it has the advantage of not hauling the extra fuel for the longer (U)LH routes.
For a 10,000km sector you burn less fuel by stopping somewhere in the middle to and take fuel again for the latter part of the sector. (Hence the strategically located geographic location of DXB/AUH/DOH, which is not such a BS as you seem to think) For ATH-SYD it would even burn less fuel by stopping twice...

Oh, and BTW, Etihad and Qatar combined are as big as Emirates (if not bigger), Emirates is certainly not the only threat...

[b720]

we need to be reminded, ever so often, that europe and n.america are not the centre of the world..look at all the new traffic being generated in India, China, S.east asia, M.east, Africa, Lat.Am .. let us take India, China and S.east Asia as is the natural market for EK. UAE and other gulf countries have been trading with India for centuries, and with east africa.. it is their natural market.. a market that is booming right now, and a market with HUGE potential.. The hundreds of millions of the newly founded middle class in that region is discovering air travel the way it happened in Western Europe and N.America post WWII and boomed for decades after that. EUropean Airlines took their share of connecting pax from the developing world, at EXHUBERANT prices as there was no competition.. SN (and others) still does that to a certain extent in Africa. EK is taking advantage of the fact that economies of its neighboring countries are BOOMING, that it is located in a city that is OPEN for business..does its best to attract people and business from all around the world. Citizens of India, China, and others in the region can book a flight on EK to N.America for instance or Africa via DXB. and apply online while purchasing their tickets for a UAE Visa.. make a stop over in DXB spend money in malls, enjoy the beach etc.. while if they wish to do the same via Europe they will need to stand in line at EU embassies 2 to 3 months in advance armed with endless paperwork... Someone mentioned earlier KLM, indeed is its size justified especially when we take a look at the dutch market? What about SWISS?

[regi]

I do also think that the location of Dubai is strategically important. My first long haul flight was on a KLM 747 old style that did a fuel stop at Dubai to Bangkok. So not the LHR-Australia routing, but Amsterdam-Bangkok.
Interesting: where did BA and Qantas have their fuel stop before the arrival of the B747-400 ?

[b720]

yes Regi, I even remember the SAbena DC10 back in 1979.. already then DXB was very busy at night with Asian
and european airliners stopping to refuel. Certainly more than 1 Cathay pacific on the tarmac at any one point after midnight.. Garuda, Singapore, KLM, (BA flew the tristar to LHR) on a daily basis with a stopover in KUW.
I think BA used BAhrain rather than DXB for technical stops.. and BEY up to late 60s..
Those days GULF AIR had a pole position at DXB with 737s based there and a few tristars..

[Darjeeling]

As for many things, the ball is the middle.

- Who can't deny that global alliances act as trusts ? Doesn't LH prevent TG from landing in BRU ? Everyone knows that, and there are countless examples of such understandings. At least GCC carriers don't belong to alliances so we can't blame them for such actions.

- GCC carriers were and are assets for European/American/Indian and Australians consumers. It broke the monopoly of fact on many routes. You can now go to BKK with a full service carrier providing you a decent service for 550€. 12-13 years ago European majors were charging 850-900€ to seat on a cattle 747 classic. They kicked the market. Not a bad thing IMO.

- Everyone knows that European carriers even the so-called privatized one are ALSO receiving money from their respective state by a form or another. Look at Alitalia, Air France, Iberia and even LH group... The only one that has been dumped by its government is Sabena... Swissair being yet another dirty story.

[tolipanebas]

Seems like the Canadians might toughen their stand against the UAE...

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Drop+ ... story.html

[FlightMate]

Well, maybe before they have stolen all pax from other airlines, they will steal all pilots from these same airlines. (might be the quickest way)

[capetown]

BBC's Fast Track dedicated some 10 minutes to the "battle to dominate global aviation" : the Gulf versus Europe...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/f ... 349970.stm

[sn26567]

France has just granted more slots to Emirates and Etihad, against the recommendations of Air France which sees their expansion as a threat.

According to La Tribune the deal has been in part the securing of previous Airbus orders and the Rafale sale in the UAE.

[EBKT]

Emirates to launch 3rd Daily Dubai – Frankfurt service from Dec 2011
At time this post goes to press at 0300PDT 26MAY11, Emirates had loaded 3rd Daily for Dubai – Frankfurt service. The flight is to begin from 01DEC11 on board 3-class Airbus A330-200 aircraft.

For the moment, reservation for 01DEC11 is not open (open for sale from 02DEC11).

Schedules:

EK043 DXB0320 – 0735FRA 332 D
EK045 DXB0840 – 1245FRA 77W D
EK047 DXB1430 – 1830FRA 77W D

EK044 FRA1000 – 1915DXB 332 D
EK046 FRA1425 – 2330DXB 77W D
EK048 FRA2015 – 0525+1DXB 77W D

: Airlineroute 26th of May

[sn-remember]

Since so many years I blamed the EU countries for granting EK (or EY, QR..) traffic rights in such an extensive way !!! I posted many times on this topic. Only recently it seems are the major EU operators showing appropriate concern regarding the threat.
EK IMHO should be granted rights on basis of O/D demand only. The EU are giving them a astonishing piece of their cake with NO compensation at all , it's crazy ! And don't tell me the huge A380 order is a compensation ! First they NEED this a/c to swallow the cake, second they are very much Boeing clients also.There is no end to their expansion as long as the world grant them the rights they need.
Personally I appreciate the Canadian attitude .. It's deemed protectionist but to me it's just sound policy.
Canada to me is the model to apply if we want to save a balanced world traffic, with significant chunks still in European hands.

Anyways I for one would hesitate to travel with UAE airliners, and I will visit those countries only if really I can't avoid it. Simply because I disagree with the way they apply law. Really I don't understand the buzz with Dubai, it's unattractive place to me, standards are too often beastly standards. Ok for Bengali I can understand the lure but unacceptable for Westerners (my opinion of course).

The UAE is not the only possible transit place regarding the world air traffic flows. Already IST is rising as an alternative, HEL is developing an interesting niche. In the future I can see 2 other interesting places to challenge DXB for hubbing the East/West trafic flows : DEL and Moscow. Both need invest HEAVILY in ambitious hub policy (I know DEL started already but still uncomparable to what is planned in Dubai for the next 20 yrs) and the question is can they raise the money the same way the UAE do ... The advantage they have over Dubai is 1. a strong and ever growing O/D traffic 2. a better position on the map regarding e2e flight duration. So the potential is there I believe those could be the new hubs and challenges. Why not imagine LH (for instance) opening a hub in Moscow? But the appropriate infrastructure is still lacking !

Anyways just my thoughts

[Darjeeling]

@sn-remember: true.

It's really amazing to see the huge capacity the GCC carriers have been able to deploy in Europe.

It's not uncommon at all to see two EK 388 at the same time in LHR. Unbelievable. I'm sure EK would order the 389 once it's available.

It's already open war between LH group and EK, I'm expecting BA to withdraw of Australasia any time soon as EK, EY, QR have literally looted the UK-Oz market. All a symbol. It's not looking any better for the European carriers as far as South-Africa/Europe is concerned.

[regi]

Anyways I for one would hesitate to travel with UAE airliners, and I will visit those countries only if really I can't avoid it. Simply because I disagree with the way they apply law.
The UAE is not the only possible transit place regarding the world air traffic flows. Already IST is rising as an alternative, HEL is developing an interesting niche. In the future I can see 2 other interesting places to challenge DXB for hubbing the East/West trafic flows : DEL and Moscow.

In that respect, we westerners should lift the embargo immediately against Iran. The brand new airport at Tehran and its 2 long haul airlines ( Iran Air and Mahan ) and Kish for regional activities will immediately start to compete with the Gulf state airlines. Plenty of money in that country to buy our Airbusses.

[sn-remember]

@Regi : Tehran, Beyrouth could have been contenders ... but history has had the last word. In the past (60ies, 70ies) Athens was better positioned than Istanbul as a hub .. today is the opposite. In fact, (out of topic sorry), I was real astounded by the relentless collapse of the Greek civil aviation. Things can change dramatically in a matter of a few decades, everybody knows that. Anyways Teheran would be at best just another smallish clone of DXB in the ME (like so many others). I see no real added value ito hubbing service. But it's fiction. Moscow and DEL on the other hand are real and do have a better case imho.

@Darjeeling : The kangouroo route has become the Gulf carriers prime cash cow .. and more and more a private ground in the market place. However it should not be considered a fatality but the trend will be difficult to change !
The Australians seem to have the "complex of distanciation" so any link is welcome because considered vital, foreign or national doesn't matter, wether it be detrimental to their own carriers is not considered.
EK is also a killer on the Indian subcontinent, making them de facto the biggest international "Indian" carrier in the mind of many Indians. Same apply for Pakistani, ME people and many others (I would be curious to know how the Ozzies perceive them). Gulf carriers succeeded to sell an image (really it's worth noting) of global carrier meaning that lots of people around consider them close to being sort of a national carrier (or supra national carrier, supra in the sense of "better") Quite an achievement !
The risk this "Gulfmania" extending to Europe exists, although Europe still has assets and values ito image to put forward. But the threat is there !! Definitely !

@andré concerning KL : KL was indeed a "predator" airline. They benefited from the open skies agreement with the US giving them a strong position as an Atlantic hub BUT for the rest they had to negociate very hard for limited access to important markets. That's why they diversified their destination offer and operated the B747 as much as possible (Combi version to buffer the unavoidable load variations) But you know all that of course.. my point is they never benefitted from extensive traffic rights like Gulf carriers do ... Besides their location is not comparable to Dubai (not the same threat ito globality)

[Air Key West]

I've just read an interesting article on LX in the Swiss daily Le Temps. Didn't know if I should open a new thread or put it in here as there is an interesting paragraph on emirati airlines in which LX boss Harry Hohmeister says :

In the UAE it is thought that in Europe politicians have not understood that aviation is an important means of transport in the globalized world. The emirati government does not see why it should tax its airlines and penalize them as it is being done in Europe. On the Old Continent, politicians should ask themselves more questions about this. It is a struggle of cultures in which Europe must beware not to tax, to regulate too much and to prevent growth. How can it be that in a context of non discrimination, rail transport is subsidized and air transport is penalized ? It does not make sense.

Sorry, the rest of the article is in French :
http://www.letemps.ch/Page/Uuid/af93914 ... 6f2af0%7C0
http://www.letemps.ch/Page/Uuid/af93914 ... 6f2af0%7C1
http://www.letemps.ch/Page/Uuid/af93914 ... 6f2af0%7C2
http://www.letemps.ch/Page/Uuid/af93914 ... 6f2af0%7C3

[Air Key West]

From February 2012 Emirates will fly nonstop daily to DFW and from March daily nonstop to Seattle.

For those who are interested, more info in the article below :
http://gulfnews.com/business/aviation/e ... r-1.880374

[tsv]

.
And for the passengers? Well, reality shows that Emirates was cheapest some years ago. But not anymore. And who wants to sit in a B777 10 abreast?

Me! And I give you the reason. This month, Hong-Kong - Amsterdam for 600 euro return with Emirates. From Hong-Kong to Dubai in the A380, then 777 to Amsterdam. Same price wit Aeroflot, 767-300, no personal TV , no alcohol (in Y) and not to forget the "very nice airport" Sheremetyevo (not).

Ok, Cathay is better , but double the price. So, I do not complain with Emirates.

Umm SVO has been completely refurbished and is now the Best Airport in Europe, or at least the best I've come across and I've seen a fair selection of them. SU International is supposedly a pretty decent product although I would take exception to the No Alcohol Rule, expecting people to fly long distance without a drink is quite insane.

[andorra-airport]

Umm SVO has been completely refurbished and is now the Best Airport in Europe, or at least the best I've come across and I've seen a fair selection of them.

Terminal D and E are nice ,yes, although I would not call them the best, but that is personal. Unfortunately I need to use most of the time terminal F, which is a true soviet shit hole.

But we are talking here about Emirates , which is a far better product then SU , and although Dubai airport is not perfect, it is much better then SVO.

[tsv]

Umm SVO has been completely refurbished and is now the Best Airport in Europe, or at least the best I've come across and I've seen a fair selection of them.

Terminal D and E are nice ,yes, although I would not call them the best, but that is personal. Unfortunately I need to use most of the time terminal F, which is a true soviet shit hole.

But we are talking here about Emirates , which is a far better product then SU , and although Dubai airport is not perfect, it is much better then SVO.

So Terminal F has not been done up? Interesting, I was there last July and thought they had all been done up although I can't remember which terminal I was in. Certainly the difference between the new and old SVO was indescribable. Out of interest what would be your pick for the best airport in Europe?

[andorra-airport]

Out of interest what would be your pick for the best airport in Europe?

For me personally I would say Amsterdam and Helsinki. Worst are London (Heathrow + Luton) and the airports in Rome.