Brussels Airlines vs Senegal Airlines

[sn26567]

Brussels Airlines is in the xpectation. A Belgian diplomatic team is in Dakar since Monday (7 Feb) to re-negotiate the air agreement between the two countries. These talks are expected to last for at least 3 days. Let's expect a white fume soon....

Meanwhile, the ceremony of acceptance of credentials of the new Senegalese ambassador to Belgium at the Royal Palace has been postponed in expectation for a more relaxed atmosphere....

[sn26567]

According to this article from the official Senegalese press agency, the conflict is not close to a conclusion. On the contrary, Senegal seems to reinforce its opinion that Belgium has no right at all to fly between Dakar and other African capitals...

Note: sn in the URL means Senegal, not Brussels Airlines

[tolipanebas]

This can go on for months still...

The thing is not that Senegal does not want to understand they can not forbid technical stops on flights to 3rd countries to be combined with the bilateral right of SN to operate to DKR, the thing is they just want to make it as hard a s possible for SN to operate to secondary places like BJL, ROB and CRY in the hope that when they operate to Europe themselves, they might take a bigger piece of those markets via their 'hub' in DKR.

What Belgium needs to do is to find a way to pressure the Senegalese and to twist their arms, for instance by kicking out their ambassador, forbidding their leaders to visit te EU (Schengen visa, remember?) or far more interestingly even: put an immediate export ban on all Belgian manufactured parts for Airbus planes! Good luck maintaining the Airbus fleet then, Senegal Airlines, unless you don't mind being blacklisted!

[kookongsi]

The problem is that SN has maybe more to loose than Senegal in this case. Senegal can ultimately (worst case scenario) forbid SN flying there. Isn't there a possibility to fly to DKR with a dedicated plane (something smaller than a A333 and let this as a stand-alone flight? Maybe SN could reorganise their african flights in a way that the secundary destinations are linked to another premium destination, and search for an additional premium destination (for ex. Lagos) to make the puzzle complete? I think this would be the best way to kick the senegalese governments' ass: a full plane to Dakar from Europe and BJL etc. coupled to another place.
Just a few thoughts.

[regi]

or far more interestingly even: put an immediate export ban on all Belgian manufactured parts for Airbus planes! Good luck maintaining the Airbus fleet then, Senegal Airlines, unless you don't mind being blacklisted!

So you want to erase thousands of well paid Belgian jobs in manufacturing high tech parts, to try to put pressure on Senegal ? You were joking I suppose?

[RCMike]

DKR flights are performing well... why not choose to keep a direct flight to DKR?

[sn26567]

Isn't there a possibility to fly to DKR with a dedicated plane (something smaller than a A333 and let this as a stand-alone flight? Maybe SN could reorganise their African flights in a way that the secondary destinations are linked to another premium destination, and search for an additional premium destination (for ex. Lagos) to make the puzzle complete? I think this would be the best way to kick the Senegalese governments' ass: a full plane to Dakar from Europe and BJL etc. coupled to another place.

This is already what SN is doing on a provisional basis: a daily wet-leased B767 to Dakar and a reorganisation of the other destinations. But I guess that such an arrangement costs a lot and that SN would like to revert to the previous schedules. As an example, on some days an A333 is flying to just one destination, Banjul, which must not be very lucrative.

[kookongsi]

Isn't there a possibility to fly to DKR with a dedicated plane (something smaller than a A333 and let this as a stand-alone flight? Maybe SN could reorganise their African flights in a way that the secondary destinations are linked to another premium destination, and search for an additional premium destination (for ex. Lagos) to make the puzzle complete? I think this would be the best way to kick the Senegalese governments' ass: a full plane to Dakar from Europe and BJL etc. coupled to another place.

This is already what SN is doing on a provisional basis: a daily wet-leased B767 to Dakar and a reorganisation of the other destinations. But I guess that such an arrangement costs a lot and that SN would like to revert to the previous schedules. As an example, on some days an A333 is flying to just one destination, Banjul, which must not be very lucrative.

That's what I mean, why not combine Banjul (in this case) whit a new destination? I know this takes time, but it can also open opportunities to explore new markets.

[tolipanebas]

or far more interestingly even: put an immediate export ban on all Belgian manufactured parts for Airbus planes! Good luck maintaining the Airbus fleet then, Senegal Airlines, unless you don't mind being blacklisted!

So you want to erase thousands of well paid Belgian jobs in manufacturing high tech parts, to try to put pressure on Senegal ? You were joking I suppose?

I wasn't very clear there: I was of course talking about an export ban to Senegal ALONE.

Not delivering a few flap components is not going to cost a single job here in Belgium (after all, the parts for Senegal Airlines are only a tiny fraction of the total production for the global Airbus fleet), but it is going to basically ground Senegal airlines within a few months and halt any further deliveries to them....
It's kind of like the US embargo on aeroplane components applicable on several countries.

Now, THAT is some serious diplomatic pressure: talking alone will not solve this, believe me, some arm twisting is needed too... a Belgian export embargo on aeroplane components to Senegal might be a good method: Belgium happens to manufacture some key parts used on the planes Senegal Airlines is using (and has purchased): without them, Senegal Airlines won't have an airworthy fleet for much longer...

[regi]

As far as I know, the airlines order the parts from Airbus and not from the manufacturing company.
If such a company, for example the one that makes gears for the flaps, would supply 1 part directly to an end user, that would mean the breach of the contract. And this manufacturing company would be blacklisted as a copy manufacturer.
Is the Belgian government informed by Airbus to who Airbus supplies spare parts?
Example: there is a weapon export control legislation. But what if the flap actuator gear is intended for a Airbus of a foreign airforce? Does Airbus have to provide end user data to the Belgian control body?

[tolipanebas]

As far as I know, the airlines order the parts from Airbus and not from the manufacturing company.
If such a company, for example the one that makes gears for the flaps, would supply 1 part directly to an end user, that would mean the breach of the contract. And this manufacturing company would be blacklisted as a copy manufacturer.
Is the Belgian government informed by Airbus to who Airbus supplies spare parts?

Well, the US government has no problems enforcing a total export embargo on Cuba or Iran for instance, making it very hard for US manufactured technology to find it's way into these countries.

In fact it's the main reason why these countries can not only buy no new Boeing planes since long, but also fail to purchase new Airbus planes: the US government forbids all US suppliers to export US manufactured technology for installation in new planes for Cuba and also, Airbus is at risk of very harsh sanctions if it would sell on any US manufactured technology once it has left the US, something which they do not do of course.

If the Belgian government legally forbids ASCO and others to export technology to Senegal in a way similar to the US export embargo on Cuba, then all Belgian companies MUST comply with this and may not send parts to Airbus which they know are ment for Senegal Airlines and similarly Airbus may not sell on Belgian manufactured technology for Senegalese Airbus planes at any later stage, unless it willingly breaches the law... If you are exporting sensitive technology like Airbus does daily, you are supposed to check with your suppliers to make sure you will be compliant with all export rules and you can be sure Airbus does this. Don't think for a minute Airbus will ever be selling a single A400M to Iran for instance....

I agree an export embargo is a very harsh sanction to put in place, but one that would be limited to aviation technology alone would be an appropriate retalliation for the unilateral and unlawful decision by Senegal to forbid SN from combining the right of making a technical stop in DKR on route to BJL/CRY/ROB with their bilateral right to serve DKR commercially and it may make Senegal surprisingly more 'flexible'...

If all other methods fail, I hope our government does have the guts to go all the way: bullies should not be rewarded; they may screw us on one route, so we better let them feel we can screw their entire airline if we really want.

[regi]

The US doesn't forbid Airbus to sell airplanes to Iran. It forbids any company to sell products to Iran with US made parts in it. So because there is quite an amount of US made parts in Airbusses, Toulouse can not sell the planes to Iran or would face legal disputes in the USA.
But the Russians can sell their airplanes to Cuba. Example is the Il-96, without the conversion with P&W engines.

How do you think that Airbus will react if Belgium imposes a ban of Belgium made products to be used in Senegal?
I know some of the products of Asco - I sell them, I have pictures of them, I have held them in my hands at various subcontractors of the programs that ASCO gets from Airbus.
I can tell you this : in an emergency plan , it would take for some machined components between 1 and 2 weeks to get the first parts in for prototype inspection. Serial production would be completely transfered < 1 month, paperwork, approvals all the lot ( but again, in case of an emergency). How do I know this? Because as a subcontractor you have to make a contingency plan. For example: your factory burns down. The same day, the machining program will be launched on another milling machine somewhere else. The forgings from the UK will arrive within 1 or 2 days. The special ESR steel same same. Heat treatment will be prepared, and at the end of the week you have your first parts.
The only problem would be with some very large parts with special toolings. But everything is digitalised, even the manufacturing of the toolings ( also supplied by some Belgian companies, so bye bye those orders as well )
Do we really want to whipe out 50% ( just a figure, no exact data ) of well paid jobs in high tech manufacturing because of a minor and questionable dispute with a marginal market?
Lucky enough our Belgian diplomats are very careful in their actions. Our MoFA uses velvet gloves. See the dreadful affair with the grounded Silverback DC-8 and the Ruandese retaliation grounding a A330 of SN.

[sn26567]

Senegal Airlines Network Adjustment since mid-Feb 2011

Senegal Airlines, which launched operation on 25JAN11, has revised its planned operation since 14FEB11, which includes 2 new destinations. There are also frequency adjustments to existing destinations. Compared to original plan, the airline appears to have shrink its initial operation.

Planned service changes which already in effect as follows:

Abidjan Planned service is Canceled
Bamako Service reduce from planned 12 weekly to Daily. 4 of 7 weekly service extends to Niamey, a new destination. The other 3 weekly service extends to Ouagadougou
Banjul Service reduce from planned 6 weekly to 4 weekly
Bissau NEW destination, operating 3 weekly
Conakry Service increase from planned 5 weekly to Daily
Niamey NEW destination, operating 4 weekly via Bamako
Nouakchott Service remains Daily though operational day changes in effect
Ouagadougou Planned 2 weekly nonstop service changed to 1-stop via Bamako



Dakar – Bamako – Niamey

Code: Select all

DN003 DKR0745 – 0930BKO100 – 1310NIM 320 x246
DN004 NIM1410 – 1500BKO1545 – 1730DKR 320 x246

Dakar – Bamako – Ouagadougou

Code: Select all

DN005 DKR0745 – 0930BKO1020 – 1140OUA 320 246
DN006 OUA1340 – 1500BKO1545 – 1730DKR 320 246

Dakar – Banjul

Code: Select all

DN015 DKR1850 – 1930BJL 320 x246
DN016 BJL2030 – 2110DKR 320 x246

Dakar – Bissau

Code: Select all

DN023 DKR1830 – 1930OXB 320 136
DN024 OXB2030 – 2130DKR 320 136

Dakar – Conakry

Code: Select all

DN021 DKR1300 – 1425CKY 320 D
DN022 CKY1515 – 1640DKY 320 D

Dakar – Nouakchott

Code: Select all

DN007 DKR0700 – 0800NKC 320 136 (was Day x247)
DN009 DKR1830 – 1930NKC 320 x136 (was Day 247) 
DN008 NKC0850 – 0950DKR 320 136 (was Day x247)
DN010 NKC2030 – 2130DKR 320 x136 (was Day 247)

Source: airlineroute.net

Is Brussels Airlines really endangering these operations?

[sn26567]

Senegal and Belgium are pursuing discussions. Secretary of State on Mobility Etienne Schouppe was in Dakar yesterday (Monday 28 March) and there seems to be progress: Belgium is ready to assist Senegal Airlines in its expansion.



More details in French from the Senegalese press: http://www.aps.sn/aps.php?page=articles ... icle=78534

Stop press: according to Les Echos, the discussions which started Monday should last 3 days. Shall we see a white smoke on Wednesday?

[RoMax]

Senegal Airlines and Brussels Airlines today announed they signed a commercial agreement to cooperate on the traffic between Europe and West-Africa. They will work together on the BRU-DKR route and on flights out of BRU (by SN) and out of DKR (by Senegal Airlines) connecting with the BRU-DKR-BRU route. The cooperation is for passengers and for freight operations, it will be an interline agreement.
A source at Senegal Airlines also said that their own flights to Europe wich they will start in the future will be based on the cooperation with Brussels Airlines. So I assume they do not intend to fly to BRU themself and compete head on with SN on the DKR-BRU route.

http://www.lesechos.fr/entreprises-sect ... 168283.php

Don't know what the current bilateral agreement says, but this may be the best solution for SN to avoid (future) competition from Senegal Airlines. And Senegal Airlines will be happy with this agreement for sure, as they now have a 'strong' European partner. This probably makes a route to BRU impossible for Senegal Airlines, but it may help to develop other destinations.

[RoMax]

Some sources say its an interline agreement, others say its a codeshare agreement. Does anyone knows what it really is?

[sn26567]

According to the Senegal Press Agency, it is an IATA interlining agreement, allowing passengers to travel on both airlines' routes with a single ticket.

[sn26567]

Senegal was complaining that SN used Dakar as some kind of hub from where any passenger could fly to other destinations in Africa. See what Senegal Airlines is doing now: they are establishing a hub in Abidjan (Ivory Coast) from where it is possible to fly to 6 African destinations!


Picture courtesy of anna.aero

[werknemer]

well if you have some time, gues which country supported Ouatara during his fight with Bagbo?
Politiciens always do something because they have a win story at the end! And not because it is the right thing to do!

[Darjeeling]

Let's take the other way then:

What would be SN's reaction if Senegal Airlines established a mini-hub in BRU with flights to GVA, TXL, BMA ?

Though I trust SN will smoke Senegal Airlines out with one of their well-known code-sahre agreement one day or the other.