BeOnTop Airlines - Liège Airport

[BeOnTop]

Have you thought about STOL aircraft ?

A good question suggest a good answer: Short take-off and landing aircrfat should be the solution, but to be in the financial competition, there's one good idea of the low and middle cost you have to respect: ONE AIRCRAFT ONLY

[cnc]

What's a "reverse hub and spoke" it seems to be that you did not read what i've explain ...
or give me just your " hub and spoke" definition ...
By the way, if this does not interest you, why are you here ?

i'm getting confused here.
correct me if i'm wrong but you will use LGG as home base but not as hub since your goal is to carry people out of LGG rather them taking them to LGG as transfer pax?

[cathay belgium]

Hi,

NCB thinks that there is no potential for A318 flights from Liege.

Flogger or NCB ?
Okay, NCB I like this avatar more than Flogger !
( we're used to it )
Again back after you left again,please stay now because it will become too silly !
And you just can't to not reply on this ** forum or what did you called us/this before !
Please be gentle this time.

Just compare the grammar between NCB and Beontop and you see the difference

Help,this means BeOnTop is another guy !!
Must admit NCB, liked you more than this nutcase of BoT,
can't ever believe he's what he told us..
Your answers were indeed at least always commented good and understandable..
but sometimes hard to believe (AFI? ) but I liked the discussions, BoT is no discussion just blabla..

but I think that the project can work if it finds its right niche, the right equipment and the right airport.

I guess a bit like Wings of Maastricht tries to do in a few months,really think this could work, altough
I want to see that they can do what they say,cheap fares with tiny aircraft.. don't think it will work for long,
altough as a 'backpacker and aviation-enthousiast I'll be on their first flights before they disappear again,
like easyjet's MST-SXF ... (yes I'm also booked on Germanwings ' )..
With this I thinks it's better to go for Tolepanes solutions.. bigger aircraft.. and indeed some props Q400's
for little frequent nearby routes.. (bordeaux for SN ? )

We have reached the 5th stage of the Kubler Ross model, acceptance.

For a bit, still don't see A319 operate to AFI..

Discussion is funny but as usual, the level is too low.

Don't start again ,if the level is too low for you,why did you come back (again )?

It's also appreciated that you now all shifted from Boston to JFK while 10 months ago we were debating one against 10 that BOS is better than JFK??

Why not both of them and Toronto , now there's maybe an opportunity ??
Just hope that SN is in LH hands when the ball will be rollin' and that SN could jump on it..
with second hands LH material, A340,old B747 and if SN can fill A380 to GVA

I also think that you have strong arguments but that you make a mess of combining all of them togheter.
SN don't feed Jet as said before so Jet's leaving can be an opportunity for SN, but it's hard to handle for
BRU airport..
Senegals actions against SN is a matter of the Sengalese government, SN doesn't have this
because our belgian government will lobby but won't force Senegal/SN to actions..
Europe won't deal with this.. I guess?

You don't need to be Einstein to figure that triangular flights bring more costs than direct flights and that SN needs to compensate that higher cost by stuffing the A333's hold with cargo. I've been saying that all along but dreamers think that you can sell cargo at 5 euro the kg average, forget it. Passengers will always be more lucrative.

As said before your reasons looks very realistic and still I can't go with your opinions,
because it's not that it looks right that it is, watch the figures, at this point I can see Tolepane's ideas also and
than these are better funded and seen how SN operates and handle their flights I go with them..
Cargo is important..
( flying catering around in AFI for pax,won't see me other ways.. )

Using the current operating model, SN is likely to lose its foothold in Africa within 5 years.

Don't believe so, yes there will be more competition, more carriers ( Emirates,Turkish,Afriquaah,etc.. )
but I also see that pax. are increasing, twice to 2020? ..
So losing a share won't deal immediately on decreasing pax, a foothold,just I'm not cheering for a brake on destination expansion,fleet expansions..
Maybe just maybe SN can compete with this competition as a carrier were you can rely on... ,
with a good internal domestic network in a few years ( Korongo )..
Let's see it positive..

In Europe, lowering CASM using A319 is a great idea but remember most Ryanair return fares are cheaper than BRU's taxes already.

Okay, maybe FR and europe is also changing bit by bit, FR Girona-Barcelona,.. increasing FR fares,
dump seats on SN, bigger planes, more January SN-fares, I think people will pay a bit more to fly SN instead of FR,.. you don't need 20 euro flights to fill planes like FR, SN can compete with 60/80 euro flights, people do
read newspapers and see the news, just wanted to see these fares more around me in January !!
If these things can fill an B737-800 they can an A319, ..
And there's even space for businesspax in economy+ ..
Still don't see business in europe (yet).. ( but hi i'm a backpacker )

I hope that Tolipanebas becomes CEO and Regi co-ceo of SN, so we can fly to Geneva and Milan on an A380.
If we had to rely on Cathay Belgium, we would see second hand space shuttles with SN liveries.

Damn, I hoped I could have also a job at SN .. but no..
Geneva / Milan on A380 nope, but maybe an A321 will do the job and rock bottom fares to fill it completely !

Nope, I don't see second hand SS with SN liveries .. ( pity you see me like that ),
but for now I gonna write my letter and CV for KLM Galactic and have a sleep..

NCB, welcome back, stay on track this time and fill our heart full of joy with our nice discussions,
the seeds are planted for 2011,fleetrenewal(again), Jet - and their coming succesors, A330/340..

Forget Flogger ! BE NCB !

CX-B
BoT, try to beat him.. ( but it seems you can't )

[tolipanebas]

Very interesting to note how somebody who had sworn to leave this forum because this site isn't worthy of his knowledgeable presence (sic), has apparently been reading well into all hot topics all along his 'absence' and has now suddenly decided to come back from hiding under his rock, right at the moment when several people had come to the conclusion the 'star of this topic' is in fact the resident nutcase in disguise!
Seems to me like NCB has decided he just had to come back as Flogger to turn the heat away from a certain BeonTop... Weird, isn't it?

BTW, Flogger, how attentful of you to immediately highlight the differences in the use of grammar between you and BeOnTop: I am really impressed to see how accustomed you are with style markers of other members, being just a very 'junior' member!

Not to mention the English of BeOnTop has improved greatly in just a couple of weeks as this discussion deepens. Been doing a berlitz language course or something, BoT?

Yep, it must sure be hard to keep pretending to be somebody completely different than NCB, especially as you can't make all your points when having to use shabby English op purpose, can you? Dropping names and abbreviations is all fun for a while, but from the length of the Flogger-post and the wide scope of it (which is completely off topic BTW), it must have been quite a relief for you to be finally able again to write all that frustration off you for well over an hour... which interestingly enough is just about the time lapse between that post and the one of BeOnTop right before.... after which BeOnTop came back online.

You know, NCB, you can make as much accounts as you want here, but you really have to try keeping your ego within normal limits, however, if you want to remain undetected: whatever profile you post under, you just can't refrain from using that very same very remarkable style marker of yours: i.e. ridiculing your opponents by ironic name-calling, hence you'll always be spotted within days. Not to mention it is a bit of a give-away if you start off with having an public ranting issue with a certain member, while that member has had no discussion whatsoever with the newcomer.

Now, what's next?
BeonTop who'll now pretend in public he's NOT Flogger/NCB for the very first time, while he has remarkably ignored the claims on a very constant basis before so as not to put the focus on this matter at first?

Pathetic show really, especially as we're about 5 pages of posts further in this topic and not a single new factual element of information has emerged. Something which should be no surprise really, since that's exactly what was said in an e-mail from the company to this site: don't expect any news from us until we're ready to start, something all too many people here have forgotten, just because somebody is posting his personal views on the matter under the name of the project.

[regi]

I can imagine that people from around Charleroi would like to visit Sankt Moritz or Davos ...

A very poor knowledge of Ryanair customers Regi: 65% of flemish pax ...

My contacts with people who go on holiday to those 2 expensive places tell me 1 thing: not 1 of them has ever used Ryanair.
I am not in their league, not earned enough yet as CEO of my own companies ( I have 2 companies, how many do you actually own? )
I organised recently a trip for one of those rich persons. He flies business to Zurich and a Benz drives him with his mistresses ( plural ) to his hotel.
I did propose to him to fly Ryanair to Bergamo, and take the car from their onwards. His look at me was so harsh that I excused myself.
Oh yes, my contacts who visit SM and Davos are Flemish. And still don't fly Ryanair.
Not my personnal opinion btw. It is a kind of people who is used to be served, and they travel in other ways than most people.
One of them used to invite me to have lunch at Spa, departing from Ostend. ( as if there is no restaurant at Ostend ) He flew himself. Yes, that kind of people.

[regi]

I hope that Tolipanebas becomes CEO and Regi co-ceo of SN, so we can fly to Geneva and Milan on an A380.
If we had to rely on Cathay Belgium, we would see second hand space shuttles with SN liveries.

Thank you for the honour.
But in the view of recent clashes with German companies I think they will pick their own man. ( new topic : How many airlines have females as CEO ? )
As a humble man, I would aim at something a bit smaller than a A380. Something between a Q400NG and the big bus. So probably a A319/320 , B737. My goodness, that is boring !

There is also the other solution I learned from a former member who had the great idea to fly narrow bodies to Central Africa and have cargo and food being flown afterwards:

• Day before departure: Schenker comes to pick up your luggage at home and puts it on night road/train transport towards Geneva or Milan.
  Fly a Cessna Caravan to one of those destinations.
  Get your luggage at the airport.

[azingrew]

By the way, if this does not interest you, why are you here ?
BeOnTop
..because I'm always in for a good laugh On the contrary, I'm very interested in the topic. I would love to see an airline succeed in Liège and I am sure the newspaper stand which has to survive on a dozen flights a week, as well ( lol), but I'm skeptical. First there's Liège itself. Since the 70's all attemps of schedule flights have always failed: Sabena couldn't fill a Beech 1900 to London in those days, up to recently with the aborted flights to Lorient, Jetairfly regular dayly flight to BCN, the flights to Albania which just moved to BRU etc..
Then there is BeOnTop: the project as presented by " the spokesperson" doesn't make sence: REVERSE hub and spoke, 318, ... and the name: sounds maybe irrelevant but if I may, I'd like to refer to my own experience. When I had my travel agency in Miami I had the greatest difficulties selling the name "City Bird". Backpackers didn't mind, but the general public did and it took me quite a while before I started selling their dead cheap business class. The lack of confidence and credibility of the name were obvious though eventualy people loved the airline and the name got finally accepted, but it took time. What's in a name, ? You'd be surprised. And talking about City Bird, OUT of Miami, ( don't know To Miami), in the last few years of its existance, about 1/3 of passengers were connecting to cities beyond BRU on SN. That model maybe applicable in LGG( Long Haul + feeder) but you need a hell of a network to do that, and SN notoriously didn't make any money on those flights. So, I am curious how things will turn out at BOT, but wish them well.

[tolipanebas]

I would aim at something a bit smaller than a A380. Something between a Q400NG and the big bus. So probably a A319/320 , B737. My goodness, that is boring!

Which then automatically disqualifies it, of course.

After all, the more odd the project, the more NCB was fond of it as if he was sufffering from some mental desease or so to absolutely wanting to do all things differently, no matter what!

There is also the other solution I learned from a former member who had the great idea to fly narrow bodies to Central Africa and have cargo and food being flown afterwards:

• Day before departure: Schenker comes to pick up your luggage at home and puts it on night road/train transport towards Geneva or Milan.
  Fly a Cessna Caravan to one of those destinations.
  Get your luggage at the airport.

:clap: ROTFL! :clap:

But you've forgotten to mention another key differentiator of his project: full business class seats on that Cessna Caravan, all with PTVs of course! Oh, and at least 15 frequencies a day, because demanding corporate pax would start avoiding to fly on one of the 7 daily shorthaul flights of SN to GVA, due to the poor schedule and total lack of on board comfort with the Belgian STAR alliance member... :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
Pax in their right mind would all prefer to pay 3 times as much as they do today if only they could then sit in a real business class seat on some noisy and fully packed turboprop during their almost two-hour long flight to GVA or MXP at much lower altitude so right in the turbulences, with their luggages tied onto the roof, yet the fact SN, LX nor LH are seeing a huge demand for this unbeatably low CASM concept just proofs what complete idiots they all are! Upgrading to larger planes to get CASM down: they're doomed! Luckily there will then be NCB airlines to rescue them.... :crazy: :crazy:

[regi]

coming back to one important aspect of this topic: Liège Airport. ( Also to react to Azingrew.)

Is it not strange that it doesn't work from Liège outbound? Cargo is fine, so why not on the passenger front?
Would it work with a LCC ?
Now a long shot: political influence ! If it are people of the same party who decide about special conditions for LCC at Charleroi as in Liège, we can understand that they don't want to create party divisions. So passengers at Charleroi, cargo at Liège.
Untill...the balance is broken. Political blockbuster Reynders of the right wing party MR is aiming to take power in the next communal elections in 2012. Next year ! The Girona effect, but in opposite way.
Easyjet and Flybe are already in BRU, Ryanair and Wizzair in Charleroi. Question is what is left over of LCC that would be interested to come to Liège. First as a destination, secondly as a hub ?

[andorra-airport]

( new topic : How many airlines have females as CEO ? )

It's off-topic, but the answer is 15 .

Jetstar Asia Airways, Easyjet, Thomson Airways, Russia’s SkyExpress, CityJet, Cirrus Airlines, South African Airways, Air Namibia, Syrian Arab Airlines, Aerogal, Beijing Capital Airlines, Island Air, Spring Airlines, Tiger Airways Singapore.

And for the men under us: TAROM !!!!................. : http://www.curierulnational.ro/poze-cnr/112060maxim.jpg

[BeOnTop]

Well, we gona leave Toplipanebas & Cathay in their mystic quest ...

i'm getting confused here.
correct me if i'm wrong but you will use LGG as home base but not as hub since your goal is to carry people out of LGG rather them taking them to LGG as transfer pax?

Your were quite near the solution cnc, great!
In fact if you consider incomings for LGG, the market studies shows you it's not fantastic it should be not more than 15% of clients. But at least two majors, for our discussions about our interlines agreements, have assure us that our list of special destinations is a very interresting solution for them. And with this solution, LGG should become a "reverse hub and spoke":
if you add the clients of the Total Average Market 100 around LGG or more (near 10 Mo people) and the incomings clients of FRA and LHR you can find a new market.
Two interresting consequences: no competition with Brussel's Airline, neither with Ryanair and new offers.
And, because of the short runways, steep approach, or C class, a technic impossibility to land there and so, by consequence, no low cost in your ways ...

[Novastar]

all other discussions aside... BeOnTop is a silly name for an airline

kinda in the league of "BeOnTime Railways" ... silly and hard to sell i guess.

[BeOnTop]

Ah a new specialist in marketing ...
After the washing powder and the sex shop, the railway company ...
But any new suggestion will be welcome ...
We'll try it ...

[cathay belgium]

BeReal Airlines ?
CX-B

[BeOnTop]

coming back to one important aspect of this topic: Liège Airport. ( Also to react to Azingrew.)
" passengers at Charleroi, cargo at Liège. "

This is an old story regi, they forget this idea at least five years ago, and charleroi is now quite saturated, Brussels' anouced yesterday an excellent growth.
Do you think they could have build their new terminal without solving that problem?
Give me another example in Europe where you can find such an example of this situation: The rentability of those enormous investments needs both cargo and clients.

[BeOnTop]

And for us LCC has just one meaning: SLC: Self Loading Cargo ...

[regi]

Ah a new specialist in marketing ...
After the washing powder and the sex shop, the railway company ...
But any new suggestion will be welcome ...
We'll try it ...

You forgot melting cheese.

[Flogger]

Forget about Regi. He sells aircraft parts and thinks that the CEO has to sign the release papers every time a mechanic installs his parts... talk about lack of knowledge of his own industry.
Like Tolipanebas, who thinks that anti-ice has to be diluted before putting them on the trucks and that type II is the most used anti-ice fluid like his flight instructor from the '90's told him, he is in the business for his own interests, not for the common passion. They make of a forum that could be a very interesting place, a battlefield with rough word exchanges.
Tolipanebas and Regi seem to be the same person anyway, they post on the same days and almost at the same time.
As to Cathay Belgium, the passion is there but the language skills and lack of understanding of airline operating principles make him confused. A little bit less useless commenting, a bit more reading and he could learn a lot himself.


Back to topic, I think that there is a potential in Liège for another kind of operation than the one described by BeOnTop here. I think that the idea of attracting airlines from LHR and FRA and to operate them further to very thin short destinations using very inefficient A318 is very challenging at best.

In Liege, there is one kind of operation that could work, it's a long haul charter and freight concept with regional feeding:

example
-For long-haul, lease 6 B777-300 (ER or non-ER if cheaper), operate charters to destinations in South America, Asia, Africa and maybe even Alaska/Canada in high density 1-class/9-abreast/500 pax configuration.
The flights should be 2 or 3 weekly so that 6 B773's should be able to operate to 18 key destinations.
The cargo hold should, besides the pax luggage, be stuffed with freight in partnership with TNT. Cargo volume of the B777-300 is huge, which explains my choice of aircraft.
-For short-haul, lease 20 ATR-72's with QC option, operate regional routes with feed pax and express package feeders to/from UK, Germany, Denmark, France, Switzerland, Benelux, Northern Italy to connect on to/from the long-haul flights.
Sell low fares point to point to fill the airplane and advertise the long-haul charter routes.
At night QC them into full package freighters and operate regional package routes for TNT. That should save them plenty of money over their current BAe146 operation.

The low airport taxes policy of Bierset and some Walloon regional incentives could make it a real low fares long-haul airline and the cheap to lease/operate ATR 72 and its ability to Quick Change from pax into a freight aircraft would make it possible to operate a sustainable regional operation even from an airport like Liege.

[an-148]

first time I read something intelligent besides the usual bla-bla !!
I decided not to post here as long as it remained ridiculous: but this makes sense..
I f would be rich, I would rather go for a study of this plan to look for a possibility for investing some of my money !!!

[cnc]

-For long-haul, lease 6 B777-300 (ER or non-ER if cheaper), operate charters to destinations in South America, Asia, Africa and maybe even Alaska/Canada in high density 1-class/9-abreast/500 pax configuration.
...

there are a couple points that make this idea almost impossible
- you'll need a massive budget to launch such an airline
- needing so much (new) personel from the start is a high risk
- i doubt LGG has space for such a fleet
- would tnt really be able (and want) to fill up the remaining belly space of 6 77W's?