BeOnTop Airlines - Liège Airport

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BeOnTop
Posts: 53
Joined: 07 Jan 2011, 13:39

Re: BeOnTop Airlines - Liège Airport

Post by BeOnTop »

Jetairfly wrote: It is fairly obvious why AF doesn't serve Carcassonne. Toulouse, one of AF's most important destinations with various connections, is only 93 kilometers away ;). Again, if a route out of Carcassonne was profitable, I think Air France would already have started it. I never claimed that Ryanair made a mistake when adding Carcassonne to its network.
Please keep on topic. This topic is all about BeOnTop Airlines :D!
Christophe
I'll thank you for your comments Chris, but please consider that all those destinations are examples, - there are a lot of short runways, C class airport, (and 2 steep approach) - and why not, you can suggest some ...
In fact Carcassonne for Ryanair has no concurrence and so, his Total Average Market is not the usual one (in fact 60km) but a TAM higher than 200 km: you often see at Charleroi cars from Germany and France. Raynair can't go to Davos and St Moritz, but nobody in a very large circle around LGG goes to Davos, so your Average Market is larger, why do you think that Lufthansa is buying Brussels ? Their special destinations in Africa and nothing else.

regi
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Re: BeOnTop Airlines - Liège Airport

Post by regi »

Ryanair btw.

I have no insight in the clientele of Ryanair. I can imagine that people from around Charleroi would like to visit Sankt Moritz or Davos. But by experiencing my flights with Ryanair, there were few people on board who had the looks of visitors of SM or Davos.
Good to know is that B737 can land at ( and depart from ) SM. Mr. Tariko comes there often by his own B-737 business jet.

But what is the point? I don't get it. Looking on the internet for completely ridiculous destinations for a real airline, and than say it is just an idea?
This is so NCB-ish. :lol:

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cathay belgium
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Re: BeOnTop Airlines - Liège Airport

Post by cathay belgium »

regi wrote:This is so NCB-ish.
But there's an evolution !
A318 instead A319LR, steep takeoff desti's instead medium/long haul desti's..
( when will the Q400 be introduced in BoT fleet ? - or even AFI !)

Again, wait until a real news is published because this guy :roll: !
Didn't NCB said he works for SN,maybe he's fired and started again with BoT,
another airliner in difficulties before it's even real :lol: !

CX-B
New types flown 2024 : DO228, A338 , PC6

regi
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Re: BeOnTop Airlines - Liège Airport

Post by regi »

cathay belgium wrote:
regi wrote:This is so NCB-ish.
But there's an evolution !
A318 instead A319LR, steep takeoff desti's instead medium/long haul desti's..
( when will the Q400 be introduced in BoT fleet ? - or even AFI !)

Again, wait until a real news is published because this guy :roll: !
Didn't NCB said he works for SN,maybe he's fired and started again with BoT,
another airliner in difficulties before it's even real :lol: !

CX-B
Cannot imagine that this person really works. Sounds more like a > 50 year old redundant frustrated leftover of a restructuring exercise who has too much time and not enough attention. I would like to hire him/her to come help me in my office for some administrative work. Danger is that he would file my reports by his own system and I can't find anything back.

BeOnTop
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Joined: 07 Jan 2011, 13:39

Re: BeOnTop Airlines - Liège Airport

Post by BeOnTop »

Well, we have three new great specialists today, even not able to tell me what's an ACMIFF ...
how can I speak with them ... ?
Last edited by BeOnTop on 17 Feb 2011, 21:37, edited 1 time in total.

a380bigbeast
Posts: 35
Joined: 17 Feb 2006, 00:00

Re: BeOnTop Airlines - Liège Airport

Post by a380bigbeast »

BeOnTop wrote:Well, we have three new great specialists today, even not anable to tell me what's an ACMIFF ...
how can I speak with them ... ?
Maybe using words and concepts that everyone, even not being an expert like you, could understand??

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tolipanebas
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Re: BeOnTop Airlines - Liège Airport

Post by tolipanebas »

much spin, no delivery....

Got tired of not being able to amuse people with your great ideas after you left in total shame? 8-)

You really like abbreviations, do you? N... C... B on top.

Nevihta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2008, 16:31

Re: BeOnTop Airlines - Liège Airport

Post by Nevihta »

A318 isn't a real scoop for those who had a couple of infos from the "inside" (even if inside is not really relevant in this case...)

BeOnTop
Posts: 53
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Re: BeOnTop Airlines - Liège Airport

Post by BeOnTop »

Ok, Ok: Aircraft, Crew, Maintenance, Insurance, Fuel and Fees,
Amazing, it's the BA BA ... for lessors and airlines specialists

Flogger
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Re: BeOnTop Airlines - Liège Airport

Post by Flogger »

NCB thinks that there is no potential for A318 flights from Liege.
Even a Fokker 50 would be challenging to fill, a reverse hub system is impossible for the cities mentioned and Emirates will not be interested in Liege. Yield calculators are great but RASM is unpredictable compared to CASM.
Just compare the grammar between NCB and Beontop and you see the difference :o
but I think that the project can work if it finds its right niche, the right equipment and the right airport.
I have a good idea of who is involved on this project at the management level but I wonder where funding will be found.

NCB appreciates that so many members now suddenly see 15 Q400's in SN's fleet including co-pilot Tolipanebas and backpacker Cathay Belgium. We have reached the 5th stage of the Kubler Ross model, acceptance. It's also appreciated that you now all shifted from Boston to JFK while 10 months ago we were debating one against 10 that BOS is better than JFK?? Make me laugh.

Discussion is funny but as usual, the level is too low.
Ryanair is becoming Belgium's largest airline as predicted, Senegal does what it wants with regards to 5th freedom through DKR and Belgium has nothing to say about it at all. Imagine if Senegal Airlines would use BRU to continue to LHR, FRA, MUC, that would be unacceptable wouldn't it? Then why should SN be given the right to operate triangular through DKR? by the way, whether you load pax in DKR to other destinations or not, it's still 5th freedom flights.

The DKR issue shows the weakness of the triangular system, cargo is only an optional revenue needed to operate an A333 on 3000NM inefficient triangular routes, B787/A350 can never replace the A333's because SN needs cheap planes to operate under an inefficient triangular model.

You don't need to be Einstein to figure that triangular flights bring more costs than direct flights and that SN needs to compensate that higher cost by stuffing the A333's hold with cargo. I've been saying that all along but dreamers think that you can sell cargo at 5 euro the kg average, forget it. Passengers will always be more lucrative.
This is the reason why A350/787 won't work, capital cost is too high.

In Europe, lowering CASM using A319 is a great idea but remember most Ryanair return fares are cheaper than BRU's taxes already. Pax will increase and revenues will increase but cost will increase as well, so it will be a zero operation unless SN can fill those flights with feeding pax. But to fill them with feeding, they need to triple longhaul capacity in no time and at the moment, it looks like they're losing 9W so the reverse is true.

I have yet to see Star's benefits compared to the previous codeshares. 2010 was a good year for most airlines but SN didn't turn much of a profit if at all.

Using the current operating model, SN is likely to lose its foothold in Africa within 5 years. Yesterday Tap announced Bamako, looking at Accra.
This is a "partner" airline, so imagine how little the non-Star competition will care about SN's position in Africa.
From 2016, airlines from Portugal, Spain and Italy will use their good positioning to fly Europe-Africa with A320's and more African airlines will start competing aggressively, so who is going to use SN any longer?
By my estimates, if due to increasing competition SN loses the equivalent revenue of 20 to 30 pax flying to Africa on each A333 flight today at current yields, they can kiss Africa goodbye.

If you don't understand that, you will never understand that a narrow body operation is, IMO, the only option of last resort for SN to make it through the next 5 years.

Anyways, it's still funny to read your armchair management theories. Keep on and make us laugh.
Lower CASM = profit, right? ONLY IF YOU CAN FILL THOSE SEATS GOD D*MN IT! If they can't fill an RJ85 at 60%, why do you need an A319 that costs more to operate? Fill the other 40%, see if it makes sense, then if it does but it never will, go bigger.
Great of SN that they dumped many seats in January at rock bottom fares. Better fill seats cheap and make a small loss in the winter than sell expensive, fly empty and fill Ryanair's planes.
I hope that Tolipanebas becomes CEO and Regi co-ceo of SN, so we can fly to Geneva and Milan on an A380.
If we had to rely on Cathay Belgium, we would see second hand space shuttles with SN liveries.

andorra-airport
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Re: BeOnTop Airlines - Liège Airport

Post by andorra-airport »

BeOnTop wrote:Ok, Ok: Aircraft, Crew, Maintenance, Insurance, Fuel and Fees,
Amazing, it's the BA BA ... for lessors and airlines specialists
You are the first one I ever heard using that term (ACMIFF). Only ACMI and ACMIF (Aircraft, Crew, Maintenance, Insurance, and Fuel) are normally used. I could be wrong though.

BeOnTop
Posts: 53
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Re: BeOnTop Airlines - Liège Airport

Post by BeOnTop »

regi wrote: I can imagine that people from around Charleroi would like to visit Sankt Moritz or Davos ...
A very poor knowledge of Ryanair customers Regi: 65% of flemish pax ...

BeOnTop
Posts: 53
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Re: BeOnTop Airlines - Liège Airport

Post by BeOnTop »

andorra-airport wrote: You are the first one I ever heard using that term (ACMIFF). Only ACMI and ACMIF (Aircraft, Crew, Maintenance, Insurance, and Fuel) are normally used. I could be wrong though.
Indeed, at Andorra, (La Seu d'Urgell) there is no fees ... :) but anyway, this airport is not in Andora ;)
Seriously, have you ever rent a car without paying fees ?
And I'm not just talking about the aircraft parking fees ..., pax fees, fuel fees, security fees, noise fees, town fees, ... make your choice ...

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sn26567
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Re: BeOnTop Airlines - Liège Airport

Post by sn26567 »

Hello Flogger. Welcome to Luchtzak!

Your comments are very interesting and show that you have read a lot of our recent topics about Belgian aviation. But they would have been better included in the topic about SN's long haul fleet or African strategy. Or in a new topic?
André
ex Sabena #26567

134flyer
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Re: BeOnTop Airlines - Liège Airport

Post by 134flyer »

Will the real NCB please stand up? I think we have a winner here:
Flogger wrote:NCB thinks that there is no potential for A318 flights from Liege.
Even a Fokker 50 would be challenging to fill, a reverse hub system is impossible for the cities mentioned and Emirates will not be interested in Liege. Yield calculators are great but RASM is unpredictable compared to CASM.
Just compare the grammar between NCB and Beontop and you see the difference :o
but I think that the project can work if it finds its right niche, the right equipment and the right airport.
I have a good idea of who is involved on this project at the management level but I wonder where funding will be found.

NCB appreciates that so many members now suddenly see 15 Q400's in SN's fleet including co-pilot Tolipanebas and backpacker Cathay Belgium. We have reached the 5th stage of the Kubler Ross model, acceptance. It's also appreciated that you now all shifted from Boston to JFK while 10 months ago we were debating one against 10 that BOS is better than JFK?? Make me laugh.

Discussion is funny but as usual, the level is too low.
Ryanair is becoming Belgium's largest airline as predicted, Senegal does what it wants with regards to 5th freedom through DKR and Belgium has nothing to say about it at all. Imagine if Senegal Airlines would use BRU to continue to LHR, FRA, MUC, that would be unacceptable wouldn't it? Then why should SN be given the right to operate triangular through DKR? by the way, whether you load pax in DKR to other destinations or not, it's still 5th freedom flights.

The DKR issue shows the weakness of the triangular system, cargo is only an optional revenue needed to operate an A333 on 3000NM inefficient triangular routes, B787/A350 can never replace the A333's because SN needs cheap planes to operate under an inefficient triangular model.

You don't need to be Einstein to figure that triangular flights bring more costs than direct flights and that SN needs to compensate that higher cost by stuffing the A333's hold with cargo. I've been saying that all along but dreamers think that you can sell cargo at 5 euro the kg average, forget it. Passengers will always be more lucrative.
This is the reason why A350/787 won't work, capital cost is too high.

In Europe, lowering CASM using A319 is a great idea but remember most Ryanair return fares are cheaper than BRU's taxes already. Pax will increase and revenues will increase but cost will increase as well, so it will be a zero operation unless SN can fill those flights with feeding pax. But to fill them with feeding, they need to triple longhaul capacity in no time and at the moment, it looks like they're losing 9W so the reverse is true.

I have yet to see Star's benefits compared to the previous codeshares. 2010 was a good year for most airlines but SN didn't turn much of a profit if at all.

Using the current operating model, SN is likely to lose its foothold in Africa within 5 years. Yesterday Tap announced Bamako, looking at Accra.
This is a "partner" airline, so imagine how little the non-Star competition will care about SN's position in Africa.
From 2016, airlines from Portugal, Spain and Italy will use their good positioning to fly Europe-Africa with A320's and more African airlines will start competing aggressively, so who is going to use SN any longer?
By my estimates, if due to increasing competition SN loses the equivalent revenue of 20 to 30 pax flying to Africa on each A333 flight today at current yields, they can kiss Africa goodbye.

If you don't understand that, you will never understand that a narrow body operation is, IMO, the only option of last resort for SN to make it through the next 5 years.

Anyways, it's still funny to read your armchair management theories. Keep on and make us laugh.
Lower CASM = profit, right? ONLY IF YOU CAN FILL THOSE SEATS GOD D*MN IT! If they can't fill an RJ85 at 60%, why do you need an A319 that costs more to operate? Fill the other 40%, see if it makes sense, then if it does but it never will, go bigger.
Great of SN that they dumped many seats in January at rock bottom fares. Better fill seats cheap and make a small loss in the winter than sell expensive, fly empty and fill Ryanair's planes.
I hope that Tolipanebas becomes CEO and Regi co-ceo of SN, so we can fly to Geneva and Milan on an A380.
If we had to rely on Cathay Belgium, we would see second hand space shuttles with SN liveries.

andorra-airport
Posts: 1193
Joined: 19 Oct 2008, 16:21

Re: BeOnTop Airlines - Liège Airport

Post by andorra-airport »

BeOnTop wrote:
andorra-airport wrote: You are the first one I ever heard using that term (ACMIFF). Only ACMI and ACMIF (Aircraft, Crew, Maintenance, Insurance, and Fuel) are normally used. I could be wrong though.
Indeed, at Andorra, (La Seu d'Urgell) there is no fees ... :) but anyway, this airport is not in Andora ;)
Seriously, have you ever rent a car without paying fees ?
And I'm not just talking about the aircraft parking fees ..., pax fees, fuel fees, security fees, noise fees, town fees, ... make your choice ...
I guess Pirineus - la Seu d'Urgel airport would be a good candidate for you. No other airlines, very close (12km) to Andorra. Very popular for skiing in the winter. Summer as well. The only other airports now served by airlines are Barcelona and Toulouse, a bit far away.

azingrew
Posts: 86
Joined: 25 Oct 2010, 16:52

Re: BeOnTop Airlines - Liège Airport

Post by azingrew »

In fact Carcassonne for Ryanair has no concurrence and so, his Total Average Market is not the usual one (in fact 60km) but a TAM higher than 200 km: you often see at Charleroi cars from Germany and France. Raynair can't go to Davos and St Moritz, but nobody in a very large circle around LGG goes to Davos, so your Average Market is larger, why do you think that Lufthansa is buying Brussels ? Their special destinations in Africa and nothing else.
BeOnTop


What the heck was that ! Giberish at his best. The more threads are added to this topic, the more it gets confusing or just plain silly. "BeonTop" can't be serious. From the " hub and spoke" idea to the "Davos and St Morritz "example, it just doesn't make any sense. And why would anybody with some sort of responsability within a corporation discuss a multy million € project in an aviation fan forum, is beyond me. And by the way "BeonTop" is a fabulous name for a sex shop chain. For an airline? mmmm

BeOnTop
Posts: 53
Joined: 07 Jan 2011, 13:39

Re: BeOnTop Airlines - Liège Airport

Post by BeOnTop »

andorra-airport wrote: I guess Pirineus - la Seu d'Urgel airport would be a good candidate for you. No other airlines, very close (12km) to Andorra. Very popular for skiing in the winter. Summer as well. The only other airports now served by airlines are Barcelona and Toulouse, a bit far away.
Ahhh! An excellent suggestion and indeed, very good arguments, but I think that 1.300 m piano to piano without overrun (30m in 04), it's a little bit cheap ...
But 10 points, sir! and thanks to be constructive.

andorra-airport
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Re: BeOnTop Airlines - Liège Airport

Post by andorra-airport »

BeOnTop wrote:
andorra-airport wrote: I guess Pirineus - la Seu d'Urgel airport would be a good candidate for you. No other airlines, very close (12km) to Andorra. Very popular for skiing in the winter. Summer as well. The only other airports now served by airlines are Barcelona and Toulouse, a bit far away.
Ahhh! An excellent suggestion and indeed, very good arguments, but I think that 1.300 m piano to piano without overrun (30m in 04), it's a little bit cheap ...
But 10 points, sir! and thanks to be constructive.
Im not sure what airplane you have in mind, but what I read, it think it is a A318. That runway is a bit short yes. (Maybe if it is not MTOW? A "ski flight" is not so heavy) . Have you thought about STOL aircraft ?

BeOnTop
Posts: 53
Joined: 07 Jan 2011, 13:39

Re: BeOnTop Airlines - Liège Airport

Post by BeOnTop »

azingrew wrote: And by the way "BeonTop" is a fabulous name for a sex shop chain. For an airline? mmmm
Ahhh! a new specialist ...
Thank you, after a laundry powder a sex shop sign, it's not bad.
2 points!
A little question to see if you're the great specialist that you pretended to be ?
What's a "reverse hub and spoke" it seems to be that you did not read what i've explain ...
or give me just your " hub and spoke" definition ...
By the way, if this does not interest you, why are you here ?

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