Emirates vs. the rest : Der Spiegel Online

[capetown]

Quite interesting article on today's Der Spiegel english language website. Emirates' expansion, alleged state aids, and (probably to a certain extent rightfully) frustrated European airlines' reactions...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/bus ... 03,00.html

[tolipanebas]

LH is right, EK must urgently be stopped from overfishing the European pond and distroying tens of thousands of European jobs in the process.

For this sake, not only should EK be prevented from gaining access to BER or STR for instance, I'd even advocate to revoke some of their landing rights (like at for instance FRA): anything more than once daily should be voided really, as there is no O&D need for a carrier from such a tiny little country like the UAE to serve these intercontinental routes to the EU more than once daily, other than to steal transfer pax!

What could the UAE do in retaliation?
Deny LH landing rights in DXB and AUH? Big deal....

If a containment policy is well coordinated between several EU countries at once, EK will be reduced back to what is should be, at least on the European market: an airline connecting Dubai with the world and taking just some 6th freedom traffic along, rather than an airline aimed at serving the EU market by extensively making use of its 6th freedom rights all while being conveniently located elsewhere only to avoid having to comply with any too costly EU regulations on employment, environment, taxation and other things!

Too crazy, you say? It's precisely what Canada is doing, and it is known it drives EK mad.
It is the example to follow, IMHO!

And while they are at it, they might do the same for QR and EY too, btw. Simply give landing rights in fuction of the home market of the applicant: 6th freedom traffic should be just an addtion to any O&D traffic; it shouldn't be the driving factor behind ever more frequencies and capacities, especially NOT as we're talking non-EU airlines here.

[Acid-drop]

Very interesting indeed.
But protectionism is just not possible in this global economy.

[tolipanebas]

Very interesting indeed.
But protectionism is just not possible in this global economy.

Actually, there's nothing protectionist in my proposal, it is simply making sure ALL players on the EU market (also the foreign ones) are playing by the same rules and are forced to adapt their capacity to the demand.

There is no law which says Emirates MUST be given additional landing rights and/or frequencies in a new round of bilateral agreements between the UAE and the EU, especially as traffic rights EU airlines reciprocally enjoy in the UAE are more than fine, proof the only reason EK feels a constant need for additional rights is purely 6th freedom based, something which needn't be considered by our authorities and lawmakers.

What's more, I think most airlines from the EU would even be more than happy to see their traffic rights to DXB and AUH being halved, if EK's presence on their home market would take a similar cut, so I'd even go further and reduce EK's traffic rights to the EU.

LH and BA are very actively promoting a containment policy towards Gulf carriers on a government level and I really hope they are successful at it. Canada is doing it successfully, and I think the EU should do it too!

[cnc]

you seem to forget the massas airbus orders. its part of its strategy to have free play in europe

[regi]

All very right, but many Europeans work for Emirates. I met quite some people from Baltic countries, Roumania, Georgia, ...also at Dubai airport for the generous salary of 350 $ a month tax free and without pension plan, because you are not allowed to cost anything in the UAE.
Where I was much in favour of Emirates some years ago, I changed my mind after I learned how some companies became so large that they want to change our way of life and legislation cfr Ryanair.
I would encourage young people to work at such a company for a while. Nice to get some first money, see the world, experience things that you wouldn't, working at McDonnald's.
But those same young people will face reality when they want to settle down. Their health care plan is non existant, no pension build up, no guarrantee to show at the bank to get a loan,...
Consider it as a job as a GO at Club Med . Fun for some time. But leave when you get bored.
And for the passengers? Well, reality shows that Emirates was cheapest some years ago. But not anymore. And who wants to sit in a B777 10 abreast?

[Desert Rat]

LH is right, EK must urgently be stopped from overfishing the European pond and distroying tens of thousands of European jobs in the process.

.

This is too funny...can you just remind us how many 330,350,380. enz have been ordered by Emirates...how many job they gave to Belgian engineers, Besix,Tractebel!!...for the burj Khalifa,island,palms,enz??

Welcome to a globalized world!

[tolipanebas]

I think EK has ordered planes to fit future expansion plans, not to buy goodwill and get more European traffic rights. The 2 may be linked as part of their order is aimed at Europe indeed, but the 2 are legally separate issues nevertheless and as such I am fairly sure EK wouldn't cancel its orders even if they are denied further growth to the EU... And if they do, well too bad: remember the pax flow from the EU to India and SE Asia is still there if you lock EK out, so somebody will have to fly them and they will need planes for it too...

Seriously, EK must be made to comply with the realities of the market and for that our regulating authorities mustn't let them misuse 6th freedom rights and evade all other widely accepted aviation legislature.

It is merely making sure there's a level playing field for all and Canada has rightfully understood this: let's hope the EU will come to the same conclusion...

[tolipanebas]

Welcome to a globalized world!

Globalization means not only sharing opportunities, but also sharing values.

EK is just about taking as big a bite as possible from the global market, without caring about any of the global rules all the others must care about.

As such it's a predator indeed, and thus it needs to be caged so it can roar, but not kill.

[Acid-drop]

As far as I know, you can play the same rules, we just don't want to.
The USA are playing also different rules than Europe and have more success in some part.
Even within Europe, Ireland was playing different rules for 10 years with a crazy growth.

It happens. Deal with it

[andorra-airport]

.
And for the passengers? Well, reality shows that Emirates was cheapest some years ago. But not anymore. And who wants to sit in a B777 10 abreast?

Me! And I give you the reason. This month, Hong-Kong - Amsterdam for 600 euro return with Emirates. From Hong-Kong to Dubai in the A380, then 777 to Amsterdam. Same price wit Aeroflot, 767-300, no personal TV , no alcohol (in Y) and not to forget the "very nice airport" Sheremetyevo (not).

Ok, Cathay is better , but double the price. So, I do not complain with Emirates.

[RoMax]

LH, AF/KLM, BA/IB, ... are right. EK is destroying many of the European aviation. BTW, look at Canada. Oh why is EK flying with an A380 to Toronto while they have only 3 weekly flights? Indeed Canada blocked EK from more traffic rights to protect the future of Air Canada. Result, the UAE was angry at Canada and it was kind a political rell. Canada doesn't care, they want to protect Air Canada and they succeed in this. However Europe is another case. As stated by others: many European personell, many Airbus on order... But working against EK doesn't mean that they have to throw them out. They can just block them from an enormous growth in Europe by giving them no more traffic rights to some countries and only a limited amount to other destinations.
BTW, this did me think about their enormous A380 order and their statements that they may need even more (and a bigger version). They may have tought about possible future traffic right problems. Having so much A380's makes so much more sense if they want to keep their high capacity while having a limited frequentie. The people at EK and the UAE are smart enough to know that Canada will not be the only country in the world wich will eventually limit EK's traffic rights. And IF this is the case, the order for the A380 is not under danger as that would hurt EK even more.

[regi]

.
And for the passengers? Well, reality shows that Emirates was cheapest some years ago. But not anymore. And who wants to sit in a B777 10 abreast?

Me! And I give you the reason. This month, Hong-Kong - Amsterdam for 600 euro return with Emirates. From Hong-Kong to Dubai in the A380, then 777 to Amsterdam. Same price wit Aeroflot, 767-300, no personal TV , no alcohol (in Y) and not to forget the "very nice airport" Sheremetyevo (not).

Ok, Cathay is better , but double the price. So, I do not complain with Emirates.

600 € in January is cheap. Congratulations. Customer is king. You will enjoy the A380 and probably Dubai airport as well ( if the transit is not too long ).
I dislike the 10 abreast in the B777. But I have to admit that 31" seat pitch with BA is a killer as well.
I understand that you chose for Emirates, compared with Aeroflot. No discussion about that !
But was there nothing more confortable between that 600€ and the 1200 € of Cathay ? 333travel offers flights for 759 € with KLM. ( non stop) Okay, it is your wallet, and I am a bargain hunter myself.

[andorra-airport]

But was there nothing more confortable between that 600€ and the 1200 € of Cathay ? 333travel offers flights for 759 € with KLM. ( non stop) Okay, it is your wallet, and I am a bargain hunter myself.

It is correct what you say, but 1) I am traveling with 3 other people, so that adds up, and 2) we are not in a hurry, and 3) I guess to travel the Emirates A380 is a nice experience. See Dubai airport for a few hours.. The 777 is maybe not so good, as you said, ( 10 seats in a row) , but lets wait and see.

[regi]

But was there nothing more confortable between that 600€ and the 1200 € of Cathay ? 333travel offers flights for 759 € with KLM. ( non stop) Okay, it is your wallet, and I am a bargain hunter myself.

It is correct what you say, but 1) I am traveling with 3 other people, so that adds up, and 2) we are not in a hurry, and 3) I guess to travel the Emirates A380 is a nice experience. See Dubai airport for a few hours.. The 777 is maybe not so good, as you said, ( 10 seats in a row) , but lets wait and see.

Well, if you sit next to family or friends, it softens the pain a bit. You could ask that the 4 of your party take an entire middle row. Check Skytrax for the best economy seat on Emirates B777 http://www.airlinequality.com/Spcl/tip_EK.htm

[BrightCedars]

I understand those who argue about cutting EK's traffic rights but then we should treat all foreign carriers equal and that means no more 4 times a day SQ or CX at LHR, don't tell me this is supported by O&D traffic.

The world of aviation is made of a mix between hub and spoke and point-to-point. What EK does is creating a worldwide hub in DXB. Trust me, the customers airlines like LH and AF are really caring about are still flying with them, they don't care much about flying via DXB every single time they need to cross a quarter or half the world: they fly nonstop. As for the rest of us, we don't mind the trade-off to go via DXB if it's better value (i.e. better flight, and less cost). If a route is really successful, trust the airlines to bust DXB and open a direct route.

The reality is that many routes successfully operated by EK are working solely out of the cheer volume of small amounts of transit passengers EK is able to put together. There's no way a daily flight can work between BRU and SEL, but there are enough people flying from airports like BRU on one side and SEL on the other side to warrant flights linking DXB with these two cities. EK has created a new market, just like FR did.

LH and AF are barking, why wouldn't they? If they get any restrictions imposed on EK, they will be able to milk the customer that much better. But it's not like their balance sheets have turned all red ink as a result of EK or FR's appearance on the market. They are still growing and are still profitable operations.

Don't get me wrong, I do think something should be done to curb this predatory behavior, but let us also not forget that DXB has become the New York and beacon of the Arab world and is a place where all meet all, which is a very positive thing in a troubled region and misunderstood culture. EY and QR are mere niche copycats of EK and aren't real threats.

What is an airline with a fleet of 100 or 200 when the world fleet tops 20,000? The real question could be how come a developed country like ours (Belgium) has an airline who's fleet doesn't reach 50 units and out of that just 5 long haul aircraft. The answer of course lies in the ability of all Belgians (Flemish and Walloon) past and present to waste time on stupid issues rather than really adding value for the citizens.

[Darjeeling]

LH is right, EK must urgently be stopped from overfishing the European pond and distroying tens of thousands of European jobs in the process.

Oh yeah... speaking of "european" jobs, what would be Airbus and its projects without EK, QR, EY, WY's orders ???

There would be no A380, A340 would be dead for years, A330 would struggle and not too sure A350 would be on the drawing board.

[sn26567]

What EK is doing in DXB is what KL has done for years in AMS with the support of Dutch authorities: the Dutch market alone doesn't justify a fleet like the KL fleet.

And to a certain extent, Sabena had also been successful in building BRU as a transit hub, something that Brussels Airlines is at pain at trying to reproduce.

[tolipanebas]

The reality is that many routes successfully operated by EK are working solely out of the cheer volume of small amounts of transit passengers EK is able to put together.

The reality is EK is only able to attract sufficient volume from Europe by dumping tickets on the market.

EK may pretent to be a profitable venture, but it has been demonstrated several times already by international studies that if would EK be based in the EU, US or in fact in any industrialized country, it would have been out of business long time already due to massive losses unless it would increase its yield (and thus ticket prices) by at least 30%, something which is simply impossible because then they lose their competitive advantage.

As such reality is EK is an airline from lalaland, not living in reality: only the complete lack of any fiscal obligations towards its employees or its local government can make an EK style airline thrive, or do you really think it is a pure coincidence the only EK clones are to be found in cash spoiled Abu Dhabi and Qatar?

Don't buy all the blabla about DXB, DOH or AUH being so exceptionally centrally located in the world: DXB is just as centrally located as any other place along the axis from LHR to SYD really: ATH is just as conveniently located globally for instance.

EK is not just another airline that tries to build a self-sustainable network based on both O&D as well as transfer traffic, it is an airline aimed only at the transfer market and it can only do so successfully because of the completely crazy fiscal regime it operates under with the full help of its government given massive state aid; EK must be contained to its current form in the EU, just as it is prevented from expanding in Canada; it is the only way to make sure the playing field is leveled.

[Desert Rat]

And what about the huge mountain of money swallowed by the europeans airlines in the 70's,80,s,90's etc...?

When it was the good old time when any national government were dumping billions in their airlines to keep them afloat?