No more deicing fluid at Brussels Airport

[acba]

On the website of thomas cook I can read the following:

De vliegtuigen van Thomas Cook Airlines die morgen vanuit Brussel moeten vertrekken, staan ’s nachts in een hangar waardoor er geen de-icing nodig is. Deze vluchten zullen dus zonder veel problemen kunnen vertrekken.

Translation: The airplanes of FQ that need to depart tomorrow morning from BRU will stay in a hangar this night, such that they won't need any de-icing tomorrow.


I didn't know FQ has that capacity. Which hangars are they using? (probably they won't park all 7 planes in a hangar) Is this action enough to avoid de-icing?

[tolipanebas]

That's all very nice, but when it snows tomorrow, they are still in need of anti-icing....

[cnc]

Is this action enough to avoid de-icing?

depends on the weather, waiting time of the a/c at the gate and the pilot who is flying it
btw FQ is handled by aviapartner

[Juulke]

I didn't know FQ has that capacity. Which hangars are they using?

Most probably H41 and H8.

[NCB]

No Tolipanebas, it's a cost thing.
In fact, type 4 is not anymore problematic than type 2, that's plain crap. They all clog flight controls.
Type 4 just costs X times more for a little more protection.

SN gets it all the time in the nordic destinations and type 4 is the most used one in Northern Europe.
BRU doesn't often get extreme winter weather so type 2 is good enough most of the time but this winter they might need to pull out the type 4.

I have also never seen a deicing with plain hot water and i doubt BIAC would like it since it would make ops on the tarmac dangerous

It depends on your OAT, but it's done very often at BRU, no problem.

Are you guys even listening to your HOT data? It seems not.

[acba]

Maybe they want to do the boarding also inside the hangar It is at least a creative solution.

[cnc]

I have also never seen a deicing with plain hot water and i doubt BIAC would like it since it would make ops on the tarmac dangerous

It depends on your OAT, but it's done very often at BRU, no problem.

i'm not going to argue about the type 4 since i just don't know but in my days as red cap i have never ever had one of my flights being deiced with hot water

[tolipanebas]

SN gets it all the time in the nordic destinations and type 4 is the most used one in Northern Europe.
BRU doesn't often get extreme winter weather so type 2 is good enough most of the time but this winter they might need to pull out the type 4.

Nope, we almost never get it at nordic destinations either...

In fact, in northern Europe they are king at de-icing planes with just type 2, 50-50 mixture even in very harsh weather conditions because they do it right next to the holding point, just a few minutes before we go, with 3 or more trucks at once!

How many de-icings have you personally been involved at at OSL for instance?
A rounded number will do...
My guess: ZERO?
Yet, you feel well placed to dispute with me on such an elementary operational topic?

[jan_olieslagers]

Deicing with hot water was hotly (haha!) discussed in the "Private Flying" section of PPRUNE over the last weeks. THOSE WHO KNOW agreed to shout it out of discussion, though reluctant to illustrate WHY. Eventually, blocking of controls come up as an argument. Which might be less relevant on airliners than on the G/A planes of that discussion.

But at any rate, even if hot water MIGHT be helpful in DE-ICING, it certainly offers no aid in ANTI-ICING. Rather the contrary, I should think. The difference seems to be less than clear to some.

[NCB]

Well at OSL, they do it at the threshold, but take even LHR.
If you got 2 jumbo's in front of your Jumbolino, you're already pushing it these days with your type 2 mixture.

Sincerely, you are 10 years behind. 10 years ago it used to be type 2 in favor of type 4, today it's the other way around. I'll have to check the latest SN procedures but I'd be damned if type 4 is banned.

I think that you're mistaking it with type 3 which is in fact banned by most airlines including SN.

Dear Jan, no one will contradict you.
But hot water is a very efficient de-icer. For small aircraft, it's the same as for large aircraft.
For light aircraft like single engine pistons, you never de-ice with anything liquid and you never anti-ice.
To de-ice, you put them in the hangar, let them dry off and take-off in non-icing conditions.
In icing conditions, you stay home.

[tolipanebas]

Sincerely, you are 10 years behind. 10 years ago it used to be type 2 in favor of type 4, today it's the other way around. I'll have to check the latest SN procedures but I'd be damned if type 4 is banned.

I think that you're mistaking it with type 3 which is in fact banned by most airlines including SN.

Type 3!!!!

You won't find even a single reference to that type in any of tables, so I can hardly be confused by it, can I?

Nope, I am right on: type 4 should be avoided when at all possible by SN's company policy, and it's not just at SN BTW, this is an industry wide good-operating-practice, not from ten years ago as you say, but from today.

Nothing to do with the latest procedures either, this has been company policy for years already...

[Bralo20]

@ NCB

I'm sure Tolipanebas is right:

Something written in a Boeing journal:

Resolution of dryout characteristics.
After additional in-service experience with Type IV fluids, some operators reported concerns about the dryout characteristic of some of these fluids in cold, dry air. After peelable films and cohesive gels were observed under some conditions conducive to dryout, some manufacturers withdrew their Type IV fluids with dryout characteristics from the market. The SAE G-12 fluids subcommittee addressed the dryout issue by developing a laboratory test for dryout by exposure to cold dry air.

[grnkg]

NCB, I think you're on the wrong forum... Het Laatste Nieuws is where I would expect your comments...

Let's get you up to date.

1. Type 4 is banned industry-wide, unless you are at a remote station where no other option is available.

2. Type 1 is used for de-icing, when build-up of snow and ice on the flight surfaces require so.

3. Type 2 is used for anti-icing and generally applied in 40/60 ratio at 80°C.

4. Type 3 fluid is commonly used in General Aviation.

Hahaha this is a good one. A concentrate that is thinned out, like orange juice from concentrates.
It gets mixed with water at application, but it never gets thinned out my friend.

5. It being mixed (diluted with water) before application means it is delivered in concentrated form!
As the matter of fact, the correct mix has lower freezing point than the fluid itself!

6. General Aviation comes to a halt whenever it freezes??? Seriously mate, you must be kidding!

To answer a question from liege-bierset, TNT has 6 de-icing trucks.

Kind regards,
GR.

[jan_olieslagers]

Thanks for some simple down-to-earth info, GR.
Allow me some stretching of your point 6, though: in this context, one can't discuss G/A as a whole. The G/A banner covers many planes, from the (unaffected, or not more affected than airliners) Gulfstreams and Falcons
via the Cessna's and Pipers that can be flown, with trouble and caution, to microlights and gliders that are unflyable if only for lack of comfortable accomodation.

[tolipanebas]

NCB, I think you're on the wrong forum...

That, I know for a long time already...

But despite announcing it several times already, he's committed to remaining around to enlighten us.

Let's get you up to date.

That will require a lot more than just a few posts, I am afraid....

[Bralo20]

That will require a lot more than just a few posts, I am afraid....

And probably some months worth of precious time...

[azingrew]

do airlines have to pay for de icing ? To whom?

[cnc]

do airlines have to pay for de icing ? To whom?

duh, to the handling agent performing it and it costs tons of money.
on average about 5 euro/liter + a fixed cost for the deicing truck

[b.lufthansa]

do airlines have to pay for de icing ? To whom?

duh, to the handling agent performing it and it costs tons of money.
on average about 5 euro/liter + a fixed cost for the deicing truck

And a real money maker for the handling agents! Makes me think why Flightcare manages this money maker into a disaster!!

[cnc]

do airlines have to pay for de icing ? To whom?

duh, to the handling agent performing it and it costs tons of money.
on average about 5 euro/liter + a fixed cost for the deicing truck

And a real money maker for the handling agents! Makes me think why Flightcare manages this money maker into a disaster!!

yes very true.
flightcare management is a disaster though so its not such a surprise they screw most things up