Air France to Freetown and Monrovia in Summer 2011

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LJ
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Re: Air France to Freetown and Monrovia in Summer 2011

Post by LJ »

134flyer wrote: As KL will increase KGL to 6 times a week starting next March, SN might defend their status at KGL as the European market leader by increasing KGL to daily, even though this might harm yields & loads, but combine it with a new service to e.g. DAR.
If you really want to create an all out war between AF/KL you should indeed go to DAR. I would think that if SN starts venturing into East-Africa AF/KL wouldn't like it... However I reckon that DAR is LX territory (6 weekly flights).
sn-remember wrote: My very personal opinion is that it's not worth going 1 wkly on distant locations.
Usually not but AFs 1 weekly flight to Bangui will probably earn them a lot of money as long as they're the only one on the route
sn-remember wrote:I would prefer BRU-JNB-MPM-BRU (daily of course) although I did not consider it in my AFI "expansion pgm
I don't think that the JNB pax will accept a stop between JNB and Europe (unless you want really low yields). Maybe a BRU-JNB-MPM-JNB-BRU routing is more viable. Furthermore isn't Maputo already served by TAP?

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Re: Air France to Freetown and Monrovia in Summer 2011

Post by sn-remember »

In my limited knowledge the A332 will not make JNB-BRU non stop full load (heat + altitude issue).
The triangular routing is a must here (can anybody pls confirm ?) if you use the A332. And I am talking of a real triangular BRU-JNB-MPM-BRU so only the return flight from JNB would be interrupted.
Since SN might consider the A332 for NA ops (in the domain of the possible but not guaranteed .. he!), I imagine they might consider new distant markets in AFI too.
That's why JNB was not in my priority list... yet. Lots of imagination here as you understand ;)

Concerning EA, Tolipanebas like Air Key West are right, some upgrading is needed (like in WA)
IF (it's a big if) the runway at FVM could be ugraded to standards, we could also imagine the following :
EBB-KGL 4, FVM-KGL 3, NBO-BJM 4, NBO-EBB 3
A more simple variant (forgetting FVM) would be: NBO-EBB 6, KGL-BJM 5
.. starting progressively from NOW, but acting fast is needed ..
So You see that a 7th plane is required asap.
Just my thoughts of course ;)

airtrotter
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Re: Air France to Freetown and Monrovia in Summer 2011

Post by airtrotter »

sn-remember wrote:In my limited knowledge the A332 will not make JNB-BRU non stop full load (heat + altitude issue).
SA has ordered the A332 (1 to 1 replacement of the A342), so it must have the legs to do JNB-europe non stop.

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tolipanebas
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Re: Air France to Freetown and Monrovia in Summer 2011

Post by tolipanebas »

About RUN and TNR and the objectives to them expressed here:

-) Once weekly wouldn't be a big problem as these are predominantly leisure destinations, especially for SN, so a higher start-up frequency isn't needed IMHO.
Besides, it's just a test: send a single plane over once a week and try to fill it. The potential of this area is HUGE (have a look at the freq from Paris), yet our knowledge about it is ZERO, so why not see if it's not a part of east Africa SN simply has forgotten about?
It could proof to be a winner you know, as it can't be that hard to convince just 5% of the pax now going on AF to switch to SN, especially not those coming from places like TLS, MRS, LYS, SXB etc. it's really all the same for them whether they connect at CDG or BRU and 5% market share is a full plane, you know?
If the route does well, it can become twice weekly quickly....

-) The long duration of the rotation needn't be a problem too, since the plane doing the run could be scheduled on the afternoon departure to west Africa the day after and hence isn't limited to a 22 hours turn around time. it's one of the advantages of having a second outbound wave; SN should really shift some more west African flights to this second wave, so it can make room in the flight schedule of their fleet for longer flights to east Africa the day prior.

-) I'd paired these 2 destinations as a single BRU-TNR-RUN as I wanted to simpify the schedule and limit it to just a single day, single plane testcase, but you could also add both places as a simple tag on to whatever east African destination you can think of (NBO, DAR) and it then has the added benefit of being an easier/cheaper way to operate the flight, from a crew as well as a fuel cost aspect, although it is somewhat of a more complicated operation from a fleet utilisation perspective because you'd have to cope with a 4th leg as you can't realistically expect pax from NBO/DAR to route through RUN or TNR on their flight.

AF is doing great on what they call 'Secteur Ocean Indien'.
For some weird reason our French competitors don't consider these destinations as part of their African network, probably because some are operated from ORY and are officially domestic routes even, but they are genuine African destinations all right and would make a profitable addition to the network, while serving as a springboard for further expansion in east Africa, a place which is not as densely populated as west Africa and thus lacks the abundance of dots on the map to convenientely make up a route network, while I think RUN and TNR are relatively low risk additions given the volume of traffic from France as well as all the commercial assets SN has to play in this regard.

RUN and TNR are 2 out-of-the-box destination proposals not to be discarted easily IMHO

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RoMax
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Re: Air France to Freetown and Monrovia in Summer 2011

Post by RoMax »

airtrotter wrote:
sn-remember wrote:In my limited knowledge the A332 will not make JNB-BRU non stop full load (heat + altitude issue).
SA has ordered the A332 (1 to 1 replacement of the A342), so it must have the legs to do JNB-europe non stop.
The A332 should be able to do it indeed. SA has them on order and they plan for exemple CPT- LHR and JNB-LHR with it. Als Munich was planned to get the A332, but this doesn't seem to go trough.

http://airlineroute.net/2010/12/14/sa-330-update3/

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Re: Air France to Freetown and Monrovia in Summer 2011

Post by sn-remember »

@MR_Boeing and Airtrotter
Thank you for the info !
On wiki they say first deliveries (out of 6) of the A332 to SA to start from 2011 (never trust W. fully ;)
Anyhow it's great to see the capability of the A332 (CPT-LHR is no issue BUT JNB-LHR is great!)
Who knows if we see one day the beautiful bird in the colours of SN ..
A333 and A332 being so similar should make their combined operation seamless.
Pbl is the A332 being so popular is a somewhat rare bird on the market I imagine ...
Last edited by sn-remember on 14 Dec 2010, 21:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Air France to Freetown and Monrovia in Summer 2011

Post by sdbelgium »

sn-remember wrote:A333 and A332 being so similar should make their combined operation seamless
They are indeed endorsed on the same type rating and you can fly both variants as long as you have a flight on either one of them every 2 years (and keep the TR valid on the other type of course). So you can fly the A332 and the A333 on the same rating, but not if you only fly on one variant. If you do not fly the other variant once every two years, you can only fly the one you are "used to".

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Re: Air France to Freetown and Monrovia in Summer 2011

Post by sn-remember »

tolipanebas wrote:RUN and TNR are 2 out-of-the-box destination proposals not to be discarted easily IMHO
I see your point !
Maybe one day .. who knows ?
After all LX offered GOI and MBA this summer... lower yields than TNR sure.
You know nobody dares to venture in PTP or FDF either ...(there you are in 100% French territory so maybe it's a question of rights)
BRU is close to Paris but still takes 2H30 by train. By air it's interesting also to have a good connectivity (with both Parisian airports IMHO).
Selling BRU in France more effectively would make a lot of sense. I believe lots of French people would rather transit in BRU than in CDG. AMS also is appreciated among French travellers... would you believe it ? ;)

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Conti764
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Re: Air France to Freetown and Monrovia in Summer 2011

Post by Conti764 »

I still have a strong belief LH will acquire the remaining 55% of SN in March '11... Why would they just buy the first 45% only to have SN being eaten by AF/KLM later on? And SN on its own is by far not strong enough to battle off AF/KLM.

So I personally expect LH to fully acquire SN in a few months and progressively add more long haul equipment to SN's fleet where needed.

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tolipanebas
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Re: Air France to Freetown and Monrovia in Summer 2011

Post by tolipanebas »

sn-remember wrote:You know nobody dares to venture in PTP or FDF either ...
I am glad you've mentioned those 2 destinationas, because I haven't dared to do so yet.
IMHO, you are 100 percent right on them.

Look at it this way: both BA/IB as well as AF/KL have a very good carribean network, each to their traditional (ex-colonial) strongholds of course, but BOTH airlines are known to be very profitable doing so.

In contrast, the LH group has nothing to offer in that area, mainly because none of the airlines has any collonial ties there. Howerer, I think the LH group should definitely consider serving some places there too in future and if it does I'd give the flights to either BD for what concerns English speeking destinations, or SN if talking about either the Dutch or French Caribbean destinations....

Indeed, there shouldn't be a reason why SN couldn't make a couple of triangular FDF-PTP flights work for instance: AF serves either destination 14 times weekly from ORY, so it's the same situation as above: you only need to take away a few percentages of the market to fill a plane and not everybody in France is living in Paris, so for them it really doesn't matter whether they go to ORY or to BRU to get onto their long haul flight!

Other places of interest in the AF/KL timetable for that region could be found at SXM (served 10 times weekly by AF+KL), CAY (served 7 times weekly by AF), PBM (served 5 times weekly by KL).
Not to mention the abundance of BA and VS routes to the eastern Carribean: ANU, UVF, TAB or POS for instance, although it might be wiser to let those places to BD, should they wish to.

Conclusion, there is definitely enough potential to reserve a single plane for the Carribean on a full time basis, and especially if we also include the BA/VS routes, it practically becomes a ZERO risk business case!

Sadly, this kind of out-of-the-box expansion is way beyond the capabilities of SN and it's a pitty really, because there sure is a unique market opportunity here up for grabs by them, given the geo-strategical position of BRU (right between AMS and CDG and very near to LON) and the commercial assets of SN (well connected to France and the UK, English French AND Dutch speeking crews, ...) which no other scheduled airline in Europe can offer! I'd say it is a pitty SN hasn't tapped into this pool.

LH has just about discovered there's a whole world outside the Europe, Asia and the America's in the form of Africa... Maybe SN should show them there are other very interesting areas they haven't tapped into? Especially in the face of the ever growing competition from EK and other gulf carrier on routes to the east, new routes southbound and/or westbound are a good investment and a great path to more diversification for LH as they are guaranteed to remain out of the gready hands of the gulf carriers!

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Conti764
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Re: Air France to Freetown and Monrovia in Summer 2011

Post by Conti764 »

tolipanebas wrote:
sn-remember wrote:You know nobody dares to venture in PTP or FDF either ...
I am glad you've mentioned those 2 destinationas, because I haven't dared to do so yet.
IMHO, you are 100 percent right on them.

Look at it this way: both BA/IB as well as AF/KL have a very good carribean network, each to their traditional (ex-colonial) strongholds of course, but BOTH airlines are known to be very profitable doing so.

In contrast, the LH group has nothing to offer in that area, mainly because none of the airlines has any collonial ties there. Howerer, I think the LH group should definitely consider serving some places there too in future and if it does I'd give the flights to either BD for what concerns English speeking destinations, or SN if talking about either the Dutch or French Caribbean destinations....

Indeed, there shouldn't be a reason why SN couldn't make a couple of triangular FDF-PTP flights work for instance: AF serves either destination 14 times weekly from ORY, so it's the same situation as above: you only need to take away a few percentages of the market to fill a plane and not everybody in France is living in Paris, so for them it really doesn't matter whether they go to ORY or to BRU to get onto their long haul flight!

Other places of interest in the AF/KL timetable for that region could be found at SXM (served 10 times weekly by AF+KL), CAY (served 7 times weekly by AF), PBM (served 5 times weekly by KL).
Not to mention the abundance of BA and VS routes to the eastern Carribean: ANU, UVF, TAB or POS for instance, although it might be wiser to let those places to BD, should they wish to.

Conclusion, there is definitely enough potential to reserve a single plane for the Carribean on a full time basis, and especially if we also include the BA/VS routes, it practically becomes a ZERO risk business case!

Sadly, this kind of out-of-the-box expansion is way beyond the capabilities of SN and it's a pitty really, because there sure is a unique market opportunity here up for grabs by them, given the geo-strategical position of BRU (right between AMS and CDG and very near to LON) and the commercial assets of SN (well connected to France and the UK, English French AND Dutch speeking crews, ...) which no other scheduled airline in Europe can offer! I'd say it is a pitty SN hasn't tapped into this pool.

LH has just about discovered there's a whole world outside the Europe, Asia and the America's in the form of Africa... Maybe SN should show them there are other very interesting areas they haven't tapped into? Especially in the face of the ever growing competition from EK and other gulf carrier on routes to the east, new routes southbound and/or westbound are a good investment and a great path to more diversification for LH as they are guaranteed to remain out of the gready hands of the gulf carriers!
Maybe LH had something like this in mind when they completed the SN acquisition. Securing Africa via SN and then attack the AF/KLM group by expanding into other territories none (or at least few) of us deemed possible. It would migitate my Oneworld statements in the other topic ;)

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RoMax
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Re: Air France to Freetown and Monrovia in Summer 2011

Post by RoMax »

I think much will become clear about SN's future in 2011/2012. If LH is ready with securing SN's traffic rights they will not wait to take over SN, than they will use their call option and they will take over SN completely in April 2011. And from that moment things will really change and it could go fast. LH has nothing about it when they wait any longer to change things at SN. I could think of these things: replacing the management (LH did the same with LX, OS, BD and I think SN could really use a new management), considering to stop with the b.light/b.flex concept, improving service on many aspects,... From that moment SN is ready to really start the fight with AF/KL. LH can speed up the long haul expansion (I like the idea of the carribean network, this is a market wich is undiscoverred by the LH group and SN has good potential for such routes as stated by tolipanebas), LH has the money to renew the fleet,...
SN will not become a second LX, but things can only improve and I think LH is really capable to make of SN a better and bigger airline.

Probably the focus for the expansion will first be at Africa, USA and improving the european feeding network. But after that, some carribean destinations could be nice. Africa and the Carribean are the two most profitable markets for AF/KL. If LH wants to really hurt AF/KL they have to fight against them on both AFI and Carribean and SN is the best candidate to do that.

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Re: Air France to Freetown and Monrovia in Summer 2011

Post by sn-remember »

Re the (ex)French overseas territories ..
Besides AF you also have :
UU from RUN (fleet 7 T7),
TX fomr the French Antillas FDF,PTP,CAY,SXM,PAP (fleet 3A330)
SS from both Indian Ocean and Antillas (fleet 6 B747-400+2A332)
MD from TNR (2 B767)
http://www.airlineroutemaps.com/Africa/ ... tral.shtml
http://www.airlineroutemaps.com/Latin_A ... ibes.shtml
http://www.airlineroutemaps.com/Europe/Corsair.shtml
http://www.airlineroutemaps.com/Africa/ ... scar.shtml
All players (MD excepted) are poised to grow.

What conclusion can we draw ?
1. The offer is wide and covers all grades of service.
2. The offer is not limited to PAR but extended to 2nd tier French cities as well, however nothing out of the hexagone.
Would it be easier to compete with the likes of those well established operators ?
I am not sure.
I am not saying SN should not try to gain new exotic markets (indeed they must if they feel it's good money).
But obviously their position in AFI needs significant consolidation first.
Not so much diversification but effective consolidation.
That's the basis, that's why LH has put a stake on them.
That's where they will survive or perish.

Concerning LH's intention, we will be fixed next april.
LH mgt I am sure can see the benefits they can get from a strong player in BRU.
Whatever their decison, SN are compelled to make the necessary consolidation investments asap.

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Re: Air France to Freetown and Monrovia in Summer 2011

Post by Darjeeling »

@tolipe: I like reading your posts, but you should know that airlines such as Air Caraïbes, Air Austral, Air Tahiti NUI are barely making any profits on these routes. Those airlines are heavily subsidised by the local "collectivités territoriales" as a result of Jacques Chirac's will to lower the fares between France and its "Dom-Tom". So in my opinion a very very very difficult market. AF is breaking even on those markets thanks to its very efficient workhorse : the 77W with high density cabin (the COI) and its looooooong experience in the market. A very adventurous market to venture at... :(

But can you tell me: was upping ABJ from 4 to 6 flights a week on an election year a smart idea ? This country is on a very negative economic slope... :?: :?:

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Re: Air France to Freetown and Monrovia in Summer 2011

Post by rwandan-flyer »

About AF flights to FDF and PTP, it seems that AF want to transfert all flights from ORY to CDG.
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Re: Air France to Freetown and Monrovia in Summer 2011

Post by sn26567 »

Air France postpones the launch of Freetown and Monrovia flights until 18 April.

At the same time, AIR FRANCE is adjusting service to Nouakchott (Airbus A330-200 replace A319LR DEDICATE service) as well as Conakry (increase to 8 weekly from 5) starting 18APR11, to adjust to the launch of Freetown and Monrovia destinations.

Schedule of these changes has been posted:



Paris CDG – Nouakchott – Conakry Airbus A330-200 operating 3 weekly (Nouakchott reduce from 5 weekly A319LR)

Code: Select all

AF724 CDG1030 – 1345NKC1445 – 1625  CKY 332 146
AF727 CKY1955 – 2135NKC2305 – 0600+1CDG 332 146
Paris CDG – Conakry – Monrovia

Code: Select all

AF772 CDG1030 – 1440CKY1605 – 1710  ROB 332 135
AF771 ROB1920 – 2025CKY2205 – 0600+1CDG 332 135
Service operates Day 35 until 27MAY11

Paris CDG – Conakry – Freetown

Code: Select all

AF774 CDG1030 – 1440CKY1605 – 1640  FNA 332 27
AF775 FNA1945 – 2025CKY2205 – 0600+1CDG 332 27 
Source: Airline Route
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Re: Air France to Freetown and Monrovia in Summer 2011

Post by sn26567 »

One new African destination for Air France in November 2011: Cape Town.

See their press release: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=44667

The most important sentence:

This new route launch is part of Air France and KLM’s expansion policy on the African continent, with 4 new destinations in 2011: Freetown (Sierra Leone), Monrovia (Liberia), Bata (Equatorial Guinea) and Cape Town. These new destinations bring the number of cities in Africa served in winter 2011 to 38.
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Re: Air France to Freetown and Monrovia in Summer 2011

Post by crlhub »

Some here are talking abour 'ex' French overseas territories.Just for your information these territories are STILL part of France as DOM-TOM (now DROM COM)or COM(département,territoire or communauté territoriale d'outre mer).Mayotte became (a few weeks ago) a 'departement', the 101th.Departements have the very same rights as in Metropolitan France.They often have more autonomy and some are almost independent but still under French law.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_d%27outre-mer

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Re: Air France to Freetown and Monrovia in Summer 2011

Post by rwandan-flyer »

According some rumors, AF will cease flights to Monrovia and Freetown, from summer 2012, with Abu Dhabi and Oviedo (from 25 MAR 2012).
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