Belgian ATC 24h strike 28/09/2010 12:00 UTC

[Stij]

Regi,

I didn't say they can't strike, but maybe a mandatory long period between the moment of announcement and the actual strike would be appropriate. Even the railway guys can do this (most of the time), so why can't the ATCO's?

If they really did it unannounced in oder to hurt as much pax as possible (and not in a moment of stress) they can get "ne welgemeende f*ck-you" and I hope they lose their job. Such an action is totally unacceptable and a complete abuse of the right to strike. It puts the whole right of strikes at risk. There exists no better invitation for a Thatcherist regime then such actions.

To put it clear: I'm not in favour of a Thatcherist regime and defend the right to strike... untill the limits are reached. Like VDB said "Trop is teveel en teveel is trop" or was it the other way around.

There's a long tradition of social negotiations in Belgium and one part of it is that you normally announe a strike well in time. Let's stick to that!

Cheers,

Stij

[teddybAIR]

I spontaneously wonder how people would react if I would hinder air traffic when my employer (not in aviation by the way) decides to relocate me. I understand that I have the right to strike. However, if someone feels I inflict damage to him or her, he/she has the right to reclaim the damage done. The one freedom doesn't exclude the other, right?

2 people got transferred from Charleroi to Brussels...so what?! I'm sure that if the real reason would have been the financial health of Belgocontrol, that unions would have endorsed the strike!

[regi]

Regi,

I didn't say they can't strike, but maybe a mandatory long period between the moment of announcement and the actual strike would be appropriate. Even the railway guys can do this (most of the time), so why can't the ATCO's?

If they really did it unannounced in oder to hurt as much pax as possible (and not in a moment of stress) they can get "ne welgemeende f*ck-you" and I hope they lose their job. Such an action is totally unacceptable and a complete abuse of the right to strike. It puts the whole right of strikes at risk. There exists no better invitation for a Thatcherist regime then such actions.

To put it clear: I'm not in favour of a Thatcherist regime and defend the right to strike... untill the limits are reached. Like VDB said "Trop is teveel en teveel is trop" or was it the other way around.

There's a long tradition of social negotiations in Belgium and one part of it is that you normally announe a strike well in time. Let's stick to that!

Cheers,

Stij

Yes Stijn, you are right with your remark about Thatcherism, and that is what I meant by:
"But it does not mean that they will get what they want. That is another subject , of which we will see the outcome within some years."

[flightlover]

I spontaneously wonder how people would react if I would hinder air traffic when my employer (not in aviation by the way) decides to relocate me. I understand that I have the right to strike. However, if someone feels I inflict damage to him or her, he/she has the right to reclaim the damage done. The one freedom doesn't exclude the other, right?

2 people got transferred from Charleroi to Brussels...so what?! I'm sure that if the real reason would have been the financial health of Belgocontrol, that unions would have endorsed the strike!

What a comparison, you do not work in the sector so an industrial action will not affect directly to the traveling public unless u target them in a specific way. If you did, and it would be desided to start an industrial action, it would. How hard is that to grasp. Minimum service or no service at all, an industrial action is always felt. Otherwise you could speak off business as usual and the action would be laught away.

[teddybAIR]

Flightlover,

The same goes for traffic controllers, but that seems to hard to grasp for you: unless they target the travelling public with their actions, nobody has to feel the consequences of their actions. They can do so much more without inflicting any damage to our economic tissue.
They claim they do it to forge changes...I'm curious to see whether they will succeed...they got media coverage, I'll grant you that...but they did so in the past as well and nothing changed...morale? Totally useless industrial action!

I challenge you: prove me the positive return of this or any previous strike by the ATCO's...looking forward to it!

[euroflyer]

Wildcat strike, until 1400 tomorrow, then cancelled at short notice at 2200 today : those guys are completely irresponsible.
And they are in charge of thousend of lives ? Frightening !

One of the lamest comments ever. This has absolutely nothing to do with the compentence of the job as ATCO.

Sorry, but I tend to disagree here. In order to do a good job in such a demanding position as ATCO certainly is, you need not only factual know-how, but a high level of social competences as well. You need to be able to see the consequences of your actions on other people and to accept this responsibility. And quite clearly the people responsible for this action have shown that they completely lack this competences, so for me too, this is somehow frightening.

This does not mean that ATCOs cannot take any actions against their employers, but they should be able to find ways to do it much more intelligent and clever with convincing arguments (and do not tell me they have tried this in the past and it was not enough - than either the people were not good enough or they really do not have a point ...) and especially without affecting so many people and taking hostages all across Europe. And if they really see no other way than going on strike they should have a proper ballot and a notice period for people to adjust, that is part of the European social model and the standard we have reached as well, you know

And if all this really was because a handful of people should be relocated from Charleroi to Brussels, oh my god, if employees in 'normal companies' would stop working each time some people have to be relocated, the European economy would be back to 18th century for quite some time. Brussels or Charleroi - this is still the same country (well, more or less ...) and you have relatively good traffic links. Plus the income of an ATCO will allow him/her to get settled in a new surrounding as well ... unbelievable!

[regi]

We undergo here a bombardment of language that has creeped into our vocabulary when it goes about labour conflicts.
Hostage : I begg your pardon? Nobody was taken hostage.
social competence: I have no clue why a ATCO should have a higher degree of social competence. Maybe even the opposite. I supposed that an ATCO was an ultra stress resistant semi-robotic figure who can perform his task under circumstances where he has to resist social interference of outsiders. I am quite sure that when those ATCO's underwrote their labour contract years ago, that there was no word in it about social competence.
Frightening: I would be afraid if I would know that ATCO's start to behave out of line, have clever ideas, are more intelligent than the system and want to overrule it.
European social model as a standard ? This model does not exist, every country has different legislation, sometimes even different from regions, and it is a constantly evolutionary process. I agree with you that this action is not what we are used to. But Mr. D'Orazio and his companeros got a better deal when they blocked the highway with a bulldozer when Forges De Clabecq would downsize, and they even got away with giving the curator Alain Zenner a blue eye. The message was clear: you don't mess with the metallo's. Remember the last visit of the miners in Brussels? They smashed the entire inner city, but got a better deal.
I do not approve such drastic actions. But I know 1 thing for sure: the big companies and state institutions have such a strong legal army behind them that if you play according their rules of engagement you are lost from the beginning.
Relocation: I do know many cases of Belgian employees who were put under pressure to follow the obligation: relocate to our new subsidary or you get fired. Well, the ones who followed the company ended up much worse than before, losing all kind of benefits ( hey, what you think? as soon as the managment discovers they get away with relocation, they knible on the rest of it ). The ones who got fired received a big amount of money. Some started their own company. Some went on early retirement. Some started to work for the competitor. Relocation has become such a powerful weapon that we see it appear in many new labour contracts. Young chaps underwrite those contracts, not realising that they give away a benefit during negotations. I have knowledge about 1 medium/large size Belgian company that set up especially a foreign subsidary to send away expensive staff and get rid off them once they were under that foreign labour legislation. Managament uses relocation quite often just to harras employees to get rid off them easely.

[Zorba]

Wildcat strike, until 1400 tomorrow, then cancelled at short notice at 2200 today : those guys are completely irresponsible.
And they are in charge of thousend of lives ? Frightening !

One of the lamest comments ever. This has absolutely nothing to do with the compentence of the job as ATCO.

Sorry, but I tend to disagree here. In order to do a good job in such a demanding position as ATCO certainly is, you need not only factual know-how, but a high level of social competences as well. You need to be able to see the consequences of your actions on other people and to accept this responsibility. And quite clearly the people responsible for this action have shown that they completely lack this competences, so for me too, this is somehow frightening.

This does not mean that ATCOs cannot take any actions against their employers, but they should be able to find ways to do it much more intelligent and clever with convincing arguments (and do not tell me they have tried this in the past and it was not enough - than either the people were not good enough or they really do not have a point ...) and especially without affecting so many people and taking hostages all across Europe. And if they really see no other way than going on strike they should have a proper ballot and a notice period for people to adjust, that is part of the European social model and the standard we have reached as well, you know

And if all this really was because a handful of people should be relocated from Charleroi to Brussels, oh my god, if employees in 'normal companies' would stop working each time some people have to be relocated, the European economy would be back to 18th century for quite some time. Brussels or Charleroi - this is still the same country (well, more or less ...) and you have relatively good traffic links. Plus the income of an ATCO will allow him/her to get settled in a new surrounding as well ... unbelievable!

It's hard to say this over and over again, but it seems people just don't want to understand. This is a very specific case, they have very specific problems and it was clear yesterday that people just don't know what they are talking about (especially the press).
The transfer of these 2 people was a reason for this action. One of many, but not the main reason.

And please, there have been other actions enough to wake Belgocontrol and the government (remember the actions at the opening of CANAC2, remember the 2 hours they worked for free). The fact is that when people are hurt by actions, they tend to forget that at some point, there just is no other way.

Also, I noticed a lot of people, like you, keep bashing on the income of an ATCO. Yes, they earn well, but when you compare it to ATCO's abroad (Spain, France, ...), it's not that much after all.
Also, their income is a non-issue as it was never a part of these problems. So I really don't know why people keep bringing this up.

[regi]

Rright to reply on the income issue! I would like to turn it around: if somebody is jealous about a ATCO his income, take his job. I wouldn't want it.

[airazurxtror]

It's hard to say this over and over again, but it seems people just don't want to understand. This is a very specific case, they have very specific problems and it was clear yesterday that people just don't know what they are talking about (especially the press).
The transfer of these 2 people was a reason for this action. One of many, but not the main reason.

Incidentally, nobody seemed to know why they went on strike : neither the union leaders neither the press neither Belgacontrol.
Anyway, as the strike was called off after just 8 hours, instead of the foreseen 24 hours, I take it they have got what they wanted, whatever that was (and it seems that we'll never know what it was all about).

[Zorba]

It's hard to say this over and over again, but it seems people just don't want to understand. This is a very specific case, they have very specific problems and it was clear yesterday that people just don't know what they are talking about (especially the press).
The transfer of these 2 people was a reason for this action. One of many, but not the main reason.

Incidentally, nobody seemed to know why they went on strike : neither the union leaders neither the press neither Belgacontrol.
Anyway, as the strike was called off after just 8 hours, instead of the foreseen 24 hours, I take it they have got what they wanted, whatever that was (and it seems that we'll never know what it was all about).

It seems that it will be discussed (and hopefully solved) by the government asap.

[EBBU]

The bottom line is that NOBODY CARES unless they are touched by the action on a personal level. It's unfortunate but that's just the way people are.

Intervening here on a personal level, and not in my admin/moderator function, I agree with you. But then why do you start actions that affect people who have nothing to do with your claims and cannot do anything to help and support you? Your actions should be directed to the people who have some influence your working conditions, people who take decisions: your management, politicians, the press, etc.

Sorry it took so long to reply to this sn26567...

You are absolutely right that actions should be directed towards the people that can do something about the problems. And at the same time, bystanders have to be protected from harm.

That is why :

*There was a protest in front of the gates of Belgocontrol at the opening of the new centre. Everyone invited was handed a dossier that set out the problems and explained the situation. The aim was to reach the politicians (that were invited to the opening) and the press.

*The t-shirts worn by the controllers and the banners in the opsroom were a message to the press. Every picture taken that night of the opsroom has the message in it. (some time before the opening, management made a movie and pictures that were distributed to the press to avoid the use of any pictures made that opening night)

*the controllers decided to work without pay for two hours because that would put management in a difficult position. (I was told this posed an insurance problem)

None of these things brought about a reaction or action unfortunatly...

[EBBU]

Now, about the question wether the reasons were known to the management and the politicians...

I can tell you from a very reliable source that there have been several (dozens) of meetings where the grievances have been made known. Not just recently but even years ago. The people present at these meetings were senior Belgocontrol management (up to and including the CEO) and cabinet members of the secretary of state.

I have a feeling that the excuse of 'we don't even know what is going on!' is being used as a way to spin the consequences of what has happened. You will have to admit that the media control done by management for example was professionally done.

The fact that there hasn't been any actions over the last years to alleviate a bad situation has been expertly downplayed...

[airazurxtror]

if somebody is jealous about a ATCO his income, take his job.

And if an ATCO is not happy about his job, let him find and take another job.

According to the RTBF JT this evening :
- there were only 30 controllers (out of some 300) that wanted to strike. Not very democratic. And we were not told that by the few supporters of the strikers who wrote here.
- the questions are now :
- the responsability of the strikers viz the financial losses of BIAC and the airlines
- the necessity of a minimal service to be provided in case of a strike

[EBBU]

if somebody is jealous about a ATCO his income, take his job.

And if an ATCO is not happy about his job, let him find and take another job.

Most ATCOs love their job, the job is not the problem.

According to the RTBF JT this evening :
- there were only 30 controllers (out of some 300) that wanted to strike. Not very democratic. And we were not told that by the few supporters of the strikers who wrote here.
- the questions are now :
- the responsability of the strikers viz the financial losses of BIAC and the airlines
- the necessity of a minimal service to be provided in case of a strike

That there were only 30 controllers that wanted to strike can be read in the same light as other bold statements made by some people to put their personal spin on the situation. I think that 30 controllers would be about the entire afternoon shift (or thereabouts).

I do think that a minimal service would be a good idea.

What would you think about this solution :

How about opening one west sector, one east sector and one approach sector and one air frequency per tower? This would mean delays and it would eat up the night hours at the airport (when maintenance is done) but the a/c could be positioned for their next rotaton...

[sean1982]

whatever the reason is for a strike, wildcat strikes are unacceptable. Give notice so people can at least make new arrangements. My opinion, let the militaty atco take over, sack anyone participating in wildcat strikes and make them personally liable for all financial damage to biac, the airlines and the belgian economy in general!!

[EBBU]

In principle, I agree. Wildcat strikes are not a good thing.
But I implore everyone to look deeper into the background of any strike.
When investigating safety occurences it is important to look beyond the obvious. The aim of the exercise should be to find the deeper reasons for the occurence. In this case we have to look to what drove the controllers to think that this strike was their only option. Why did they not see any other way to be heard. Wether they were right to think this is irrelevant to the exercise. Their perception was formed by all the preceeding events.

There is no easy answer to this question and I am sure that anyone who investigates this will find that there are many reasons to explain why the perception was formed. The deficiencies along the way have to be adressed. Simple repressive action will not prevent the occurence of wildcat strikes.

[Air Key West]

I am totally in favor of the right to strike, but cannot accept wildcat strikes. There are rules to be obeyed by everyone, including ATCs.
Since there seems to be a serious and long-lasting problem at Belgocontrol, would it not be an idea to give notice of strikes for the upcoming European Top on Aviation on 26-27 October in Bruges and for the European Council of Ministers of Transport on 2 December in Brussels. The Belgian presidency of the EU will not like this. Make things difficult for politicians, not for clients (airlines and pax). See
http://www.eutrio.be/files/bveu/media/d ... _lU.E..pdf
(sorry, only found the French version)

[highcloud]

How "wildcat" is this strike when it has been announced the day before by NOTAM ?
How "wildcat" is this strike when unions and management discussed all day long to prevent this strike ?

It's too easy to slaughter those guys by calling this a wildcat strike.

Besides the unavoidable inconveniences or economical impact, has this strike put enyone into danger ?

Haven't they stopped as soon as they got some kind of garantuee by government?
Whatever that can mean in days like these. If politics are involved, very little chance exist they will ever win something ! They are lost even before the battle starts.

Does a spontanuous strike of a factory not affect anyone economically ? What about their customers ? What about their subcontracters, ... What if tomorrow a bank strikes and you wont be able to get your money out of the wall? I really don't see any difference in this case.
This is a very old and basic social-political issue, and if you're the one who knows the only right answer to this, you are capable enough to get elected and implement your model !

I cannot believe they did this to hit as many people as possible. Maybe they are just tired to work in the situatin they're into.

So why do they not look for another job? Ask our dear (ex)colleague pilotes who failed to find something worthy outside aviation business after the failure of Sabena and so many other airlines, just because they didn't have any other qualification on paper.

Just like we do, most of these guys are passionated by their job !

[sn26567]

How "wildcat" is this strike when it has been announced the day before by NOTAM ?
How "wildcat" is this strike when unions and management discussed all day long to prevent this strike ?

How many people in the public at large and among travellers read NOTAMs?

How much is 24 hours in order to change travel plans, cancel meetings, modify vacations?

What is the use of discussions between management and trade unions when the air traffic controllers guild is not recognised by the unions? It is just a void discussion between unconcerned persons.

A strike would not be "wildcat" if it is announced and duly notified at least one week in advance. That's the law. Strikers who do not follow the law should be held financially responsible for the huge losses incurred by airlines, the airport, the travellers who were stranded, the businesspeople who missed important meetings, etc.