Hi,
Concerning long-haul :
I know there's a difference but I also said it's a huge step to take but I believe it could work
once these step is taken.
I know I'm not that familiar with the real operational costs but again if these flights are
making money these airports and other technicals ops will invest in these things..
Just the first step to take and I guess NY ( north ? ) should be the spot to aim,
if these will work others will follow..
Look at CRL,STN,.. they grew all of a small irish company not just 10/15 years ago .. so don't say it will
never happen,the short haul proved already it could work..
Not saying it's for the short term or it's gonna be easy..
Didn't check what EK has in mind for the future but their homebase isn't quite ideal for competing
an FR nutcase as MoL.
I know MoL said he's thinking in an other way, .. think he had an headache that day because the only way
FR will work is with an old MoL or his mentality as CEO.. believe it or not.
NOT saying I support this way but that's the way I see it.
CX-B
PS. I don't accept a simple NO as reply,come with better..
Ryanair contemplates order for 300 aircraft
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Re: Ryanair contemplates order for 300 aircraft
New types flown 2024 : DO228, A338 , PC6
Re: Ryanair contemplates order for 300 aircraft
to name a fewcathay belgium wrote:Hi,
Concerning long-haul :
...
-landing fees
-handling (yes they would be forced to get cleaning, catering, pushbacks, ... full handling services in other words)
-90min rotations
-more crew and higher costs because pilots and F/A's don't fly big birds for a lot of hours for the same money as an intra-europe flight
-crew hotel rooms
-find secondary airports where people want to fly to because you can not compare this to flying to secondary airports in europe
-some regions can demand to have spare parts for the a/c on site
-...
i'm sure FR will start a long haul airline in the future but it will be modeled like EK and not the current FR
Re: Ryanair contemplates order for 300 aircraft
My view on Long Haul Low Cost:
1) The possible price cuts on the Atlantic are way less in % then on the intra-european market.
Right now, you can easily find a round trip on 9W for 500€, let's say FR manages it for 250€, that's a saving of 50%. But that's very limited, compared to the 80% difference they manage to give on intra-european routes (40€ compared to 200€).
2) The possibilities for savings are more limited.
Crews and planes won't be able to make more rotations a day then on traditional carriers, so the cost of the crew and the plane will stay the same. The same is valid for the fuel. So savings will be limited to handling costs (But compared to short-haul those are limited compoared to the total cost) and to limiting the pitch and the service.
3) The market is limited because of the limits in the bilateral agreements:
Forget Africa, a major part of Asia and South-America. The only market reallky allowing this kind of business is the North-Atlantic.
4) The "people-that-will-start-to-fly" market is also limited as people won't make that much fun trips long-haul because of the cost and of the trip length.
Nobody will ever make a day-return to NY! Maybe a short-trip of 3 nights, but not less! However, there could be a new market in the expats, people that will fly a few times per year more home for a family occasion or so, but then one can reduce the market to UK-USA and Kangeroo route.
5) Company travel will not use it and neither do I:
There's a difference in asking your staff to squeeze into a FR seat without food and drinks for 1.5 hours (What I do often) and asking the same for 8 hours for a 250€ saving (What I would never do). It just won't happen.
Stij's conclusion:
Yes, it will come, no it won't be a succes as on intra-european. For Belgium: maybe to the NY area, and maybe to FIH if the bilateral agreement would allow it and stablity retuns over there. Apart from that, forget it!
Cheers mates,
Stij
1) The possible price cuts on the Atlantic are way less in % then on the intra-european market.
Right now, you can easily find a round trip on 9W for 500€, let's say FR manages it for 250€, that's a saving of 50%. But that's very limited, compared to the 80% difference they manage to give on intra-european routes (40€ compared to 200€).
2) The possibilities for savings are more limited.
Crews and planes won't be able to make more rotations a day then on traditional carriers, so the cost of the crew and the plane will stay the same. The same is valid for the fuel. So savings will be limited to handling costs (But compared to short-haul those are limited compoared to the total cost) and to limiting the pitch and the service.
3) The market is limited because of the limits in the bilateral agreements:
Forget Africa, a major part of Asia and South-America. The only market reallky allowing this kind of business is the North-Atlantic.
4) The "people-that-will-start-to-fly" market is also limited as people won't make that much fun trips long-haul because of the cost and of the trip length.
Nobody will ever make a day-return to NY! Maybe a short-trip of 3 nights, but not less! However, there could be a new market in the expats, people that will fly a few times per year more home for a family occasion or so, but then one can reduce the market to UK-USA and Kangeroo route.
5) Company travel will not use it and neither do I:
There's a difference in asking your staff to squeeze into a FR seat without food and drinks for 1.5 hours (What I do often) and asking the same for 8 hours for a 250€ saving (What I would never do). It just won't happen.
Stij's conclusion:
Yes, it will come, no it won't be a succes as on intra-european. For Belgium: maybe to the NY area, and maybe to FIH if the bilateral agreement would allow it and stablity retuns over there. Apart from that, forget it!
Cheers mates,
Stij
Re: Ryanair contemplates order for 300 aircraft
Strange that nobody brings in the story of Sir Branson and his Virgin companies.
We seem to have forgotten that it all was marketed as low cost, different model, free market competition, modern ideas, ...
His major goal was to beat Brittish Airways. That didn't happen, but he still exists.
I do remember the start up towards Brussels that it was all over the news that the politicians should even forbid Virgin to come to Brussels, because it would mean death to Sabena. ( that worked out, but by other causes than Sir Branson )
When we see now where the aviation division stands of Virgin, we see that it has nothing to do anymore with low cost.
And yes, Virgin serves...USA , Australia and ...Africa. With big, chunky, expensive wide body airplanes. Providing all the goodies, luggage transfer, partnerships , you name it.
Sir Branson and MoL have quite in common. Both use loopholes and back doors in the conventional systems/legislations. And if necesarry they force themselves an entry. Difference? MoL will not be knighted
We seem to have forgotten that it all was marketed as low cost, different model, free market competition, modern ideas, ...
His major goal was to beat Brittish Airways. That didn't happen, but he still exists.
I do remember the start up towards Brussels that it was all over the news that the politicians should even forbid Virgin to come to Brussels, because it would mean death to Sabena. ( that worked out, but by other causes than Sir Branson )
When we see now where the aviation division stands of Virgin, we see that it has nothing to do anymore with low cost.
And yes, Virgin serves...USA , Australia and ...Africa. With big, chunky, expensive wide body airplanes. Providing all the goodies, luggage transfer, partnerships , you name it.
Sir Branson and MoL have quite in common. Both use loopholes and back doors in the conventional systems/legislations. And if necesarry they force themselves an entry. Difference? MoL will not be knighted
Re: Ryanair contemplates order for 300 aircraft
Yes I think a scene involving MoL kneeling and someone wielding a sword would have a quite different outcome.regi wrote: Difference? MoL will not be knighted
Re: Ryanair contemplates order for 300 aircraft
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that only Virgin Express and Virgin Blue were marketed as low cost. Virgin Atlantic never was. It was always meant to be luxurious (free massage etc. ) en therefore surely not cheap.regi wrote:Strange that nobody brings in the story of Sir Branson and his Virgin companies.
We seem to have forgotten that it all was marketed as low cost, different model, free market competition, modern ideas, ...
Re: Ryanair contemplates order for 300 aircraft
OK, I talk about the start.danieln wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that only Virgin Express and Virgin Blue were marketed as low cost. Virgin Atlantic never was. It was always meant to be luxurious (free massage etc. ) en therefore surely not cheap.regi wrote:Strange that nobody brings in the story of Sir Branson and his Virgin companies.
We seem to have forgotten that it all was marketed as low cost, different model, free market competition, modern ideas, ...
Re: Ryanair contemplates order for 300 aircraft
It makes me wonder to which airport FR would fly in NY... JFK and EWR are out of the question since they won't be jumping around to accommodate FR the way several European airports do...
LGA is not an option since they rarely receive widebodies and even more important, prohibit flights that exceed 1500 NM.
Left over are ISP, HPN or SWF, but I doubt they have the necessary immigration services.
So yes, in theory FR can fly transatlantic, but hell would freeze before they do so. Everything is just against it. They wouldn't get the incentives they receive from several European airports and handling costs, operational costs would prohibit them offering tickets which are substantially cheaper then full service airlines.
LGA is not an option since they rarely receive widebodies and even more important, prohibit flights that exceed 1500 NM.
Left over are ISP, HPN or SWF, but I doubt they have the necessary immigration services.
So yes, in theory FR can fly transatlantic, but hell would freeze before they do so. Everything is just against it. They wouldn't get the incentives they receive from several European airports and handling costs, operational costs would prohibit them offering tickets which are substantially cheaper then full service airlines.