Avro replacement

[NCB]

The Embraers (17x/19x) are very good aircraft... Especially from a passengers point of view... And sometimes it's better to buy current technology which has proven to be solid then buying technology which is still yet to be proved... The biggest MRJ has less capacity then the E195 from Embraer. On the other hand the MRJ is a few centimeters wider and higher inside.

I'm in favour for the Embraer's... But wait, isn't this discussion for another thread?

The E-jets are good aircraft, no doubt.
It comes with 3 major issues:
-the cabin is not as comfortable as the Avro RJ's
-parts are expensive
-conceptual issues: not maintenance friendly, software (manuals and programs) philosophy issues

If we compare an E190 with an RJ100, the savings on operating cost should be in the 20+% range.
But if we compare an E190 with an MRJ, the MRJ will save 20% on operating cost over the 190.
The GTF technology, 5 tons lighter operating empty weight and narrower but longer fuselage for less drag combine to offer lower fuel burn. The maintenance friendly concept will reduce maintenance costs too.

An MRJ90 will thus have an operating cost of around 40% lower than the RJ100.

According to Mitsubishi, a MRJ90 will save 1 million euro of operating cost per year over a E190, for the same capacity of 96 seats.
The MRJ90, given the relatively small actual backlog may sell for cheaper than the E190. Mitsubishi is looking for a strong order from a strong European airline.

The CS100 offers 12 more seats but is 10 tons heavier and will burn significantly more fuel.
The MRJ70 also perfectly replaces the RJ85.


Conclusion, if the E-jets are good aircraft, the MRJ are the best aircraft.
Now choose between receiving a good aircraft in 2013 and receiving the best aircraft in 2014.

[earthman]

The E-jets are good aircraft, no doubt.
It comes with 3 major issues:
-the cabin is not as comfortable as the Avro RJ's

How is the cabin not as comfortable? The RJ has 2-3 or 3-3 seating, the E-jets have 2-2 seating with quite wide seats.

They do however seem to have issues with temperature control inside the cabin, esp. when on the ground.

[shockcooling]

I heard rumours that on a recent pilot union meeting with some of the managment, one of the discussion points was about the Bombardier C-series. I cannot confirm anything, just a rumour I would like to come true

[Crosswind]

Would be a dream. Exit all these old aircrafts: 737's, Avro's and A319's...

[fcw]

If we compare an E190 with an RJ100, the savings on operating cost should be in the 20+% range.
But if we compare an E190 with an MRJ, the MRJ will save 20% on operating cost over the 190.An MRJ 90 will thus have an operating cost of around 40% lower than the RJ100.

Maths aren't your strongest point NCB, 20% + 20% = 36% in this case!
A bit of a problem for a wanabe CEO who spits business plan after business plan!

[NCB]

How is the cabin not as comfortable? The RJ has 2-3 or 3-3 seating, the E-jets have 2-2 seating with quite wide seats.

It's my personal experience that SN's 2-3 configuration is alot roomier, comfortable.
I get claustrophobic on the E-jets.



Image published by AF332

Maths aren't your strongest point NCB, 20% + 20% = 36% in this case!

You should really have noticed that it is written 20+%. It really is more like 25-30%.
Next time, read the small letters before making yourself ridiculous. You need to grow up.

[sn26567]

May I ask everybody to remain courteous and not to make fun of other people's postings?

Thanks!

[cathay belgium]

Hi,

Why not an AN-158!
Looks similar as our AVRO's, just 2 instead of 4 jet-engines!
Russian = cheaper ?

I don't think they will think a second about it BUT following luchtvaarnieuws.nl
it made his first testflight today !

http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/def ... l&id=34809

CX-B

[NCB]

AN148/158 is not yet certified by EASA, so impossible to operate commercially on an AOC issued by a EU country.
Russian/Ukrainian, cheaper but ... 1.8t/hour fuel burn for 99 Pax.
Other issues: maintenance and engineering after sales support, software and documentation.

In comparison, the MRJ90 will have a fuel burn of around 1.3-1.4t/hour for 92 Pax, E190 around 1.6-1.7t/hour for 98 Pax.

[TUB023]

it seems the first ones are leavin the fleet in 2011 already:)

[Airplanefooood]

Guys, are you thinking airlines make their decision based on "how the aircraft looks"?
Com'on, then PLEASE let the rational people have this discussion and you, agh... just read, don't post.
Serious, I hope you guys are kidding about "which plane looks the best?".

[cnc]

it seems the first ones are leavin the fleet in 2011 already:)

any idea which ones are the first?

[NCB]

I wonder how SN is going to reshuffle the RJ fleet between 2011-2014.
Even if they ordered E-jets or CRJ's today, the earliest deliveries would be end 2012.

If LH shifted any of its CRJ or E190 orders it could go faster but from definition of new customer specs and delivery it usually takes about a year. I also believe that LH's E190's and CR9's are already assigned to LH Cityline, so converted options would have to wait at the back of the line for end 2012, probably 2013.

LH is probably planning a big order for the 50-100 seats segment, as SN, OS and LH Regional are in dire need of an aircraft that can replace some 33 Fokker 70/100's, the remaining BAe/Avro's but also something that might end up replacing the some 25 Q400's in the fleet and be a performer on the thin regional CR1/CR2 routes.

As material for comparison:
The MRJ70 with 72 pax cruises at M0.78-828km/h with a fuel burn of about 1150kg per hour
The Q400 with 72 pax at 600km/h at 900kg/h.
The CRJ200 with 50 pax at M0.74-786km/h at 1050kg/h

The MRJ70 seems to be the best candidate for the Lufthansa group 50-100 seats replacement.
The Cseries seems well suited for the 100-130 seats segment but will be a poor performer compared to the MRJ on the thin regional routes and for too small an airline like SN that has an average fleet load factor of 63% while operating a combination of RJ85 and RJ100's at the base of its fleet.
LX diserved the CS100 as it operates the RJ100 at the base of the fleet and manages an average fleet load factor of 80%.
The only reason that justifies Cseries for SN would be the use of a combination of CS100 and CS300 as A319 and B737 substitute/replacement and on those routes that are just a size too big for the RJ100/MRJ90.

I see the shorthaul fleet of SN in 2018-2020 looking as a combination of 15 MRJ70, 15MRJ90 as RJ85/RJ100 replacement and 10 CS100/10 CS300 as A319/B737 replacement. This fleet would benefit from engine commonality (PW1000 GTF), which would be a cost-saving advantage.
Medium haul could eventually be maintained or expanded through the use of A319 or even the new "A319-200" that will be presented at Farnborough this year.

[cathay belgium]

Hi,

The CRJ200 with 50 pax at M0.74-786km/h at 1050kg/h

This option is already ready for the dustbin !
LH just phased out a lot/nearly all of them from their regional network just because
too small for ops.
I tought just the CRJ 900 will stay until the EMB-jets will arrive.
Q400 is a prop no? !
My guess; EMB ! They're already in the fleet.
MRJ might be okay but are there already european operators/orders for this type ?
My guess, EMB will rule the european short haul routes for the next decade.
( and there quite nice, have already one flown EMB170, lot of space and quite big feeling ,
probably because of the engines underneath the wings in comp. with F50/70/100 and AVRO's)
Why is the A318 so not wanted ?
What make a lot of sense due to existing fleet, fuel burn,high rate lease,.. , just AF operate them no?

CX-B

[cnc]

Why is the A318 so not wanted ?
What make a lot of sense due to existing fleet, fuel burn,high rate lease,.. , just AF operate them no?

well i imagine an aircraft with a shortened fuselage then its standard design can never be as economic as a small sized aircraft capable of the carrying the same pax with the same or newer technology.
thats why the 736 isn't a big success either

[NCB]

This option is already ready for the dustbin !

True, but the reason it is mentionned is to show that the MRJ70 can carry 22 more pax for a small increase in fuel burn, so that it could make sense to serve former thin CRJ200 routes profitably with an MRJ70.

The further point of the comparison is that the Q400 indeed is a prop but that the MRJ70 is the first RJ that flies faster and burns less fuel per km and per seat-km than an equivalent turboprop.

Embraer is actually struggling to keep the orderbooks going. They need to reengine the Ejets to be more competitive than the MRJ and they will announce decisions only in 2011. I don't know if you realise but the MRJ's GTF engine are a jump in technology from the CF34's on the Ejets, around 15% more fuel efficient.
The fact that LH has already some Ejets in the fleet did not refrain it from ordering the CS100 for LX, which is a direct competitor of the E190/E195 and for which LH still have 50 purchase options running. (though I fear that they may never be exercised)

The A318, has the same wing structure as the A320, which makes it too heavy and too thirsty. The purchase price is also close to an A320 and maintenance costs are almost the same as for an A320. Commonality saves money but not enough to justify buying an A318 over a CRJ or an Ejet.
It's therefore not suited for regional operations.
The RJ platforms are alot lighter. The CS100 will be 5 tons lighter than the A318.

[fretn]

cnc,
I did not said anything that JAF would help SN to get new planes,
I just meant that SN better could have a look to the management of JAF as you can see
how quick THEY get their new planes. ( already 3 this year /2 from B-factory and still some to go )!!

Off course I also know that you can't compare these companies with eachother,but it was just
meant on a funny way!

greetings, CX-B
( I prefer the 757 instead of A321, a 757 with winglets !! )

Wait till the reengined A321 comes out, with the sharklets... It's going to be dead sexy.
I have to admit the nose of the 757 is really beautifull.

[TUB023]

it seems the first ones are leavin the fleet in 2011 already:)

any idea which ones are the first?

a few of the 85's,

i am not sure but i believe that
DJP
DJS
DJK
are part of them.

DJK is the oldest RJ in the fleet, almost 15 years.

[Conti764]

Would be a dream. Exit all these old aircrafts: 737's, Avro's and A319's...

Huh

Aren't the A319's supposed to stay to replace the 737's?

[TUB023]

Would be a dream. Exit all these old aircrafts: 737's, Avro's and A319's...

Huh

Aren't the A319's supposed to stay to replace the 737's?

yep