ANA flirting with the A380

[RoMax]

Keep in mind that Japanese airlines will not just order Airbus airplanes. As said before, they eat out of the hand of Boeing. But an important reason is that they want to keep the trade balance between Japan and the US in shape. Even if they like the Airbus, they will choose Boeing. And indeed you can say, yes but airlines like BA also replaced Boeing with Airbus. But that's just because they liked the airbus more than the Boeing (A320-B737 and A380-B748). Japan is a whole other story and a bit to difficult to explain.

btw: airlines like Air France who were almost forced to buy Airbus (by the government) are not in definition happy with Airbus. The majority of the Air France pilots (also Airbus pilots who also flyed Boeing)still like Boeing more than Airbus. That's also a reason why they will never have a complete Airbus fleet. And KLM will never have a majority of Airbusses in their fleet. But I don't mean they aren't happy with Airbus at all, but they still like Boeing more with Air France.

[regi]

Keep in mind that Japanese airlines will not just order Airbus airplanes. As said before, they eat out of the hand of Boeing. But an important reason is that they want to keep the trade balance between Japan and the US in shape. Even if they like the Airbus, they will choose Boeing. And indeed you can say, yes but airlines like BA also replaced Boeing with Airbus. But that's just because they liked the airbus more than the Boeing (A320-B737 and A380-B748). Japan is a whole other story and a bit to difficult to explain.

btw: airlines like Air France who were almost forced to buy Airbus (by the government) are not in definition happy with Airbus. The majority of the Air France pilots (also Airbus pilots who also flyed Boeing)still like Boeing more than Airbus. That's also a reason why they will never have a complete Airbus fleet. And KLM will never have a majority of Airbusses in their fleet. But I don't mean they aren't happy with Airbus at all, but they still like Boeing more with Air France.

Okay, that is a new approach to human resources combined to purchasing of equipment: let the pilots decide which airplane they want to fly. Come on. What do AF pilots have to say about the purchase of a certain type ? Certainly if it is a type that they have never flown before? How could a AF pilot have a realistic view on purchasing A350 or B787 ? Airplanes that have not been flown by AF pilots because of several reasons. The simpliest reason we all know is that they are not flying yet.

[RoMax]

Keep in mind that Japanese airlines will not just order Airbus airplanes. As said before, they eat out of the hand of Boeing. But an important reason is that they want to keep the trade balance between Japan and the US in shape. Even if they like the Airbus, they will choose Boeing. And indeed you can say, yes but airlines like BA also replaced Boeing with Airbus. But that's just because they liked the airbus more than the Boeing (A320-B737 and A380-B748). Japan is a whole other story and a bit to difficult to explain.

btw: airlines like Air France who were almost forced to buy Airbus (by the government) are not in definition happy with Airbus. The majority of the Air France pilots (also Airbus pilots who also flyed Boeing)still like Boeing more than Airbus. That's also a reason why they will never have a complete Airbus fleet. And KLM will never have a majority of Airbusses in their fleet. But I don't mean they aren't happy with Airbus at all, but they still like Boeing more with Air France.

Okay, that is a new approach to human resources combined to purchasing of equipment: let the pilots decide which airplane they want to fly. Come on. What do AF pilots have to say about the purchase of a certain type ? Certainly if it is a type that they have never flown before? How could a AF pilot have a realistic view on purchasing A350 or B787 ? Airplanes that have not been flown by AF pilots because of several reasons. The simpliest reason we all know is that they are not flying yet.

Excuse me, but do I ever said that pilots should decide wich aircraft an airline should buy. You just place words in my mouth that I never said.
I said the AF exemple only because that shows that NOT all Airbus (same story for Boeing by the way)are happy with them, neither the pilots neither the maintenance. But I never said airlines shoud listen to their people to acquire their airplanes. I want to make clear that changing from Airbus to Boeing or from Boeing to Airbus is not that simple. And the AF is a ferfect exemple to show that after so much years a lot of people in the company still like the previous airplanes (B737's in AF's exemple)more than the current.

Above that, all Japan airliners buy Boeing almost without thinking about Airbus. But they are hardly pushed to buy Boeing by the government like LH, AF, BA are pushed/forced by the government to buy Airbus. But the difference is that Japan airliners never had a real Airbus fleet, but LH, AF, BA had a big Boeing fleet.

But to come back to the core of the case. ANA A380's are still far far far far away.

[tolipanebas]

All Japan airliners buy Boeing almost without thinking about Airbus. But they are hardly pushed to buy Boeing by the government like LH, AF, BA are pushed/forced by the government to buy Airbus. But the difference is that Japan airliners never had a real Airbus fleet, but LH, AF, BA had a big Boeing fleet.

AF, BA and LH are all privately owned companies, so NONE of them is being pushed by the government to buy anything really; they make up their own mind, which is why BA was until last year a pure Boeing company when it comes to widebodies, until the A380 sold itself, why AF has ordered the 77W over the A346 because that way they keep engine commonality with SNECMA/GE and don't have to operate RR engine, or why LH has placed a launch order for the 748I to supplement their A330/A380 fleets.

Excuse me, but sometimes it still shows it is incredibly hard for Boeing supporters to accept Airbus makes great planes too and offers really competitive deals, making them the natural choice, even for long term Boeing operatiors. Heck, even UA ordered the A350, despite never having operated a widebody Airbus before... government pressure too?

[RoMax]

All Japan airliners buy Boeing almost without thinking about Airbus. But they are hardly pushed to buy Boeing by the government like LH, AF, BA are pushed/forced by the government to buy Airbus. But the difference is that Japan airliners never had a real Airbus fleet, but LH, AF, BA had a big Boeing fleet.

AF, BA and LH are all privately owned companies, so NONE of them is being pushed by the government to buy anything really; they make up their own mind, which is why BA was until last year a pure Boeing company when it comes to widebodies, why AF has ordered the 77W over the A346 or why LH has placed a launch order for the 748I.

Sometimes it still shows it is incredibly hard for Boeing supporters to accept Airbus makes great planes, and offers competitive deals, making them the natural choice.

Ow come on, do you really believe AF, BA and LH aren't pushed by the government to buy Airbus. And I'm talking about the past, now they do what's the best for them, but not in the past. Btw, AF wasn't even privitised at the time they buyed Airbus.
It's not because I'm a Boeing lover that I'm telling you that Airbus is making bad airplanes. NOT AT ALL. I also said the same story can be told about Boeing, but off course you didn't see that I was also talking about Boeing. I just took the Airbus exemple just BECAUSE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE AIRBUS A380!

[tolipanebas]

Well if the UK government ever pushed BA to buy from Airbus, then it did a pretty lousy job doing so, because until about 5 years ago or so, BA had NEVER EVER ordered a SINGLE Airbus.

ALL of its Airbus orders (the large A320 order of a few years ago, as well as the recent A380) came AFTER privatisation of BA.

[RoMax]

Well if the UK government ever pushed BA to buy from Airbus, then it did a pretty lousy job doing so, because until about 5 years ago or so, BA had NEVER EVER ordered a SINGLE Airbus.

ALL of its Airbus orders (the large A320 order of a few years ago, as well as the recent A380) came AFTER privatisation of BA.

Let's make of these 5 years, 12 years. 89 A32S's were ordered in November 1998. Indeed after the privatisation of BA in February 1987. Does that mean that the government did not pushed BA to buy finaly some Airbusses. Do you know the advantages for Germany, France, the UK if Airbus is doing well? So it's very normal that they push the biggest local airliners to buy these airplanes. Wich doesn't mean they do it always, like BA doesn't want to order A300/A310's. But AF is the best exemple, because they were really forced to buy Airbus because they were still a government company at the time they buyed there first Airbus airplanes.
Pushing by the government is done all the time, they push national and international companys as long as it is in the country's (governments)advantage. The same is done in the airline industry. And the Japanese government is pushing "there airlines" to buy Boeing.

[NCB]

ANA is either
-serious and wants to operate the (5?) A380 from HND to JFK, LAX, FRA, SIN, LHR, ORD, maybe even on domestic routes using a pair of high-density A380's?
OR
-not serious and are seeking discounts for a B748I order, trying to make the A380 look good before they smash it down with a B748I order, to help Boeing market the airplane in exchange for discounts.

It is hard to say which one it is but ANA's marketing in Japan focuses alot around the aircraft types they operate. That is why they painted so many of their 747's in Pokemon liveries and almost any kid in Japan knew about the "Pokemon-Jetto". With an A380 (painted in Pokemon for domestic?), ANA will definitely win over the heart of many kids and families whereas the B748I would have no WOW effect.

ANA will buy whatever suits them best with or without government pressure as shown by its fleet of A320's(so stop arguing on useless matters). ANA can fill the A380 in HND but definitely not in NRT.

[RoMax]

ANA will buy whatever suits them best with or without government pressure as shown by its fleet of A320's(so stop arguing on useless matters). ANA can fill the A380 in HND but definitely not in NRT.

You really don't understand the way Japan is working. They force ANA, JAL and others to buy Boeing (mainly to maintain good relations with the US and balancing the trade balance between the US and Japan). A small order of A320 (they have between 25 and 40 A320's and no remainging orders I think) doesn't matter for Japan. But if ANA or JAL is going to order a lot of expensive aircraft (everything bigger than 737/A320) they will automaticly look at Boeing.
Someone with a bit of knowledge in the Japanese world would know that Airbus has no big future in Japan, they should focus on China where they really love Airbus.
btw: Airbus said earlier this week that they don't expect big orders for the A380 this year. They think that the first "bigger" orders will come not earlier than 2011.

[diminbru]

btw: airlines like Air France who were almost forced to buy Airbus (by the government) are not in definition happy with Airbus. The majority of the Air France pilots (also Airbus pilots who also flyed Boeing)still like Boeing more than Airbus. That's also a reason why they will never have a complete Airbus fleet. And KLM will never have a majority of Airbusses in their fleet. But I don't mean they aren't happy with Airbus at all, but they still like Boeing more with Air France.

and why do you think american carriers have almost exclusively Boeing fleet; so you can say the same about the USA. No american carrier ordered the A380.

[cathay belgium]

Hi,

and why do you think american carriers have almost exclusively Boeing fleet

Do not generalise !
Delta has over 700 airbus aircraft ( due NWA take-over mostly ) !!

But what to expect?
Europeans carriers will evolve to Airbus , US carriers to Boeing,..
Not for the right reasons but evrybody want their people give jobs. Simple plan.
The big ask will stay for Asia and the Arab ones and LCC (because they don't give sh* for jobs )...
Africa will deal with our oldies...
Can't blame it this way..

Don't think Pokemon will that have strength !
History told us : Concord wasn't asked by AF/BA but they got it from their governments for free!
People at work and prestige,.. ( told by history guide at Duxford AB! not on TV )

So ANA, maybe a big Mitsubitshi NextGen !

CX-B

[RoMax]

Hi,

and why do you think american carriers have almost exclusively Boeing fleet

Do not generalise !
Delta has over 700 airbus aircraft ( due NWA take-over mostly ) !!

Howly, lets hold it on 158 Airbus aircraft and all due NWA take over. (Delta had always, just like CO, an gentlemens agreement with Boeing. Previously it was a real contract, but the EU forced the US to brake this contracts. But DL and CO signed a gentlemens agreement with Boeing that they will only buy Boeing). But because of the DL, NW merger and the comming CO, UA merger, they (will) both end with a big amount of Airbus aircraft altough they didn't buyed them theirself.

[NCB]

The relationship between Japan, Airbus and Boeing is complicated far beyond the historical context given here. For starters, look at how far Airbus is going, to pitch the A380 to Japan: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/b ... pan05.html

The A380 has forged even stronger partnerships between Airbus and the Japanese industry - and ultimately with the global aerospace industry as a whole. It is estimated that A380 programme business will bring around US $4.6 billion to the Japanese industry in the coming years, reflecting Airbus confidence in Japanese skills, reliability, technological leadership and quality standards.

http://stagev4.airbus.com/en/worldwide/ ... japan.html

We'd have to wait and see but if there is an order, it will not be a big one and it will be driven by the limited slots at HND. By my estimate, given NH's routes and capacity: 6+3 options, hardly a game-changer.

[cnc]

so what about "the american flag carrier" pan am back in the days? they used the A300 and A310.
even fokker planes if you go back a lot in time
i hope ana will go for the 748i but if airbus offers a A380 domestic version there should be no doubt they'll take it for both domestic and longhaul

[diminbru]

Hi,

and why do you think american carriers have almost exclusively Boeing fleet

Do not generalise !
Delta has over 700 airbus aircraft ( due NWA take-over mostly ) !!





CX-B

Delta is just one of the many american carriers. Let's see things in perspective please. Some of the european carriers have a mainly Boeing fleet also. KLM is known for this, Lot doesn't fly any Airbusses.

[sn26567]

ALL of its Airbus orders (the large A320 order of a few years ago, as well as the recent A380) came AFTER privatisation of BA.

They also unwillingly got some Airbus aircraft when they took over BCal (British Caledonian, for those who are too young to remember).

[cathay belgium]

Hi,

158 airbusses confirmed,
Wrong web-site sorry
Wrong website for fleets.
So 158 airbusses, remembered to see a lot of NWA A320 red/greys at MEMPHIS.
Sorry,

Delta is just one of the many american carriers. Let's see things in perspective please. Some of the european carriers have a mainly Boeing fleet also. KLM is known for this, Lot doesn't fly any Airbusses.

Okay but LOT has also none jobs in sight (probably) so nothing to loose..
KLM,..
Think we better start thinking in matter of alliances than in carriers for future fleets.. No

CX-B

As ANA launched the B787, the A380 is old better go for an intro of civil B747-800i !!!
Off-topic : when will we expect some AVRO-SN news ? Winter season ?

Prefer also Boeing so ..

[Conti764]

Excuse me, but sometimes it still shows it is incredibly hard for Boeing supporters to accept Airbus makes great planes too and offers really competitive deals, making them the natural choice, even for long term Boeing operatiors. Heck, even UA ordered the A350, despite never having operated a widebody Airbus before... government pressure too?

I am one of those Boeing supporters, but I can definately acknowledge that Airbus makes great planes. I do know of some pilots who still prefer the yoke over the stick, but that has nothing to do with the quality of the product...

Both Airbus and Boeing have always followed the same pattern competing each other. The 737 and A320 families are stories of their own, but especially in the widebody segment those evolutions are clear.

Boeing had the 767, Airbus came with the superior A330, to which Boeing responded with the superior 787. Airbus had the A340, Boeing came with the superior B777 for the higher end of the A340-family. I don't know if the A343 is still in production, but the 787 will consume this plane with ease.

Airbus took great advantage of the delays in the 787 development, getting some more orders for an evolved A330, which turns out to be a great plane for some segments to which Boeing currently doesn't have a clear answer, not even with the 787.

If Boeing plays their cards right, they can anticipate a potential delay in A350-development. With an updated 777 Boeing can do what Airbus did with the A330. But in the long term, a whole new Y3 is necessary to keep the edge in the market the 777 covers for Boeing.

The 747-800i seems to be the ackward plane out. It is outperformed by the A380 to fly megahub to megahub, but is being courted by the 777 in era's most companies choose two engines over four.

It is only good for everybody, the entire industry, the customers and the environment that both companies keep each other motivated to develop better, cleaner and more efficient planes.

Companies no longer allow emotions or patriotism to decide whether they take Airbus or Boeing. Todays aviation environment doesn't allow those kind of decisions. Airlines merely select manufacturer and type to cater for the route they are best suited for. Accept for those airlines having a gentlemen's agreement with Boeing or going after fleet commonality (with either Boeing or Airbus) like Iberia.

I guess even the future Continental led United Airlines will honor the A350 order because that plane simply is best fit for some of its markets.

But the Boeing fan in me prefers flying Boeing, although in september I will be on an Airbus for the very first time.

[Conti764]

and why do you think american carriers have almost exclusively Boeing fleet; so you can say the same about the USA. No american carrier ordered the A380.

United? US Airways? Jetblue?

If no American carrier ordered the A380, it is because it is too much of a plane for the American airlines. Don't forget the US aviation industry is much more competitive then in Europe. All companies ordering the A380's have some trunk routes where the A380 is best suited. Maybe some American carriers could sustain such flights, but they haven't ordered the 748i neither.

[diminbru]

and why do you think american carriers have almost exclusively Boeing fleet; so you can say the same about the USA. No american carrier ordered the A380.

United? US Airways? Jetblue?

you 'forget' to be complete : American Airlines, Continental, Delta (pre Northwest), Southwest, Hawaiian,...and then some other smaller carriers