5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

[TUB023]

rumours go around that they have found a 6th? is this true ?

[Bralo20]

I did found the following press release dated 19APR2010 by ILFC:

BRUSSELS AIRLINES LEASES ONE (1) USED AIRBUS A330-300 AIRCRAFT FROM ILFC
Century City, CA, April 19, 2010 — International Lease Finance Corporation (ILFC), a wholly-owned subsidiary of American International Group, Inc. (NYSE: AIG), announced the lease placement of one (1) used Airbus A330-300 aircraft to BRUSSELS AIRLINES.

BRUSSELS AIRLINES, based in Diegem, Belgium, leased one (1) used Airbus A330-300 aircraft from ILFC. The aircraft is scheduled for delivery in 2010.

ILFC is the international market leader in the leasing and remarketing of advanced technology commercial jet aircraft to airlines around the world. ILFC owns a portfolio valued at more than $50 billion, consisting of more than 1,000 jet aircraft.

American International Group, Inc. (AIG), a world leader in insurance and financial services, is the leading international insurance organization with operations in more than 130 countries and jurisdictions. AIG companies serve commercial, institutional and individual customers through the most extensive worldwide property-casualty and life insurance networks of any insurer. In addition, AIG companies are leading providers of retirement services, financial services and asset management around the world. AIG\'s common stock is listed on the New York Stock Exchange, as well as the stock exchanges in Paris and Tokyo.

[TUB023]

that's prlly of the malaisian bird

[HighInTheSky]

rumours go around that they have found a 6th? is this true ?

I've heard this several times aswel, but let's wait and see... We still have to get the 5th on the apron in BRU

Let's hope the 6th will come ASAP

[TUB023]

Painted in kuala lumpur

[NCB]

A 6th A333 would be ideal to fight AF on the African West coast to places like Conakry, Bamako, Nyamei.
But will it come before 2011? Chances are slim.

Some consideration must be given to parting some major routes from their triangular operating model into stand-alone routes. It should be possible to rotate an A333 in quick 75 minutes at base and do BRU-DKR-BRU-ABJ-BRU-DKR-BRU-DLA/NSI-BRU in 48 hours, thereby maximising the aircraft's potential. That would result in freeing up one additional aircraft that can do a new pair of triangular routes.

[tolipanebas]

Remember that what is possible in a high tech society, isn't possible in a third world country, so I wouldn't count on cutting the turn around times in AFI easily.

Also, bear in mind SN's A330 have the highest utilization rates in the industry while operating in quite challenging environments to say the least, yet they can't have any sort of maintenance don't on them but in BRU: turn arounds of just 75 min in BRU are a recipe for network disruptions due to unscheduled yet highly due maintenance.

Not to mention that in your proposal, some outbound flights from BRU would actually be operating southbound during the late evening, meaning no comfortable connectivity in BRU with several key destinations: all of the USA, CDG or LHR for instance!

In short: even if you'd manage to operate according to the schedule proposed (which in itself is highly doubtful), it would be quite challenging to get anywhere near some kind of a decent loadfactor on the evening departures.

[BrightCedars]

If we've been knowing about the 5th bird and its origin for some time, it could be that this press release by ILFC is indeed some kind of announcement for bird nr 6. And with bird number 6 I would go singing...

Start spreading the news... I'm leaving today... I want to be a part of it... NY! NY!

[SN1203]

Some consideration must be given to parting some major routes from their triangular operating model into stand-alone routes. It should be possible to rotate an A333 in quick 75 minutes at base and do BRU-DKR-BRU-ABJ-BRU-DKR-BRU-DLA/NSI-BRU in 48 hours, thereby maximising the aircraft's potential.

Excellent idea! Who needs a wave concept or maintenance anyway

[diminbru]

If we've been knowing about the 5th bird and its origin for some time, it could be that this press release by ILFC is indeed some kind of announcement for bird nr 6. And with bird number 6 I would go singing...

Start spreading the news... I'm leaving today... I want to be a part of it... NY! NY!

isn't this ILFC press release about the 5th A330 that is going to be delivered next month???

[NCB]

Not to mention that in your proposal, some outbound flights from BRU would actually be operating southbound during the late evening, meaning no comfortable connectivity in BRU with several key destinations: all of the USA, CDG or LHR for instance!

That is correct except for LHR. If there is a 10:00 departure to Dakar, the flight would arrive back to BRU at around 19:30, which connects to the last flight to LHR. On the other hand, the morning connection to the USA would be improved if the morning Dakar flights can coincide with the U.S. flights (instead of making pax wait 5 hours) and the evening flight could benefit from increased feeding capacity from Europe and could be popular among businessmen due to schedule. If there are destinations that do not rely on CDG or U.S. feed, that is the one to choose for the evening flight.
If SN ever flies to NYC on own metal it would have to be an outbound red-eye because the alliance partners (UA), codeshares (9W) and competitors (DL/AA) are already serving it well in the morning. If that happens, you can get some evening connections from some cities in Africa to NYC, which would be unique and be charged accordingly.

Also, bear in mind SN's A330 have the highest utilization rates in the industry while operating in quite challenging environments to say the least, yet they can't have any sort of maintenance don't on them but in BRU: turn arounds of just 75 min in BRU are a recipe for network disruptions due to unscheduled yet highly due maintenance.

If the line mx is staffed accordingly there are no issues doing the daily maintenance in 75 minutes, even with all the ground handling going on. I wouldn't do it during the morning run due to other A333's rotating.
SN's A333 do 4 cycles a day and around 18 hours air time on the tougher runs. If the triangles can be reshuffled to create the direct (example) DKR/ABJ/DKR/DLA flights the cycles and air time per day would be the same 4/18 hours.
For the same amount of air time and cycles, revenue would be generated on 4/4 sectors instead of 2/4 sectors and capacity (pax and freight) would be doubled.
The above was calculated based on 90 minute turn-arounds at the African airports, which is what they have now at FIH. At ABJ they are working with 75 minutes rotations.

The ILFC announcement was for SN's 5th A333 as there are no new agreements as of now.
Maybe more MH A330's in 2011 (on-going replacement with new A333's)? Alot will depend on how happy they are with the first one and what LH wants to do next.

[RoMax]

The ILFC announcement was for SN's 5th A333 as there are no new agreements as of now.
Maybe more MH A330's in 2011 (on-going replacement with new A333's)? Alot will depend on how happy they are with the first one and what LH wants to do next.

For extra AFI operations a MH A333 would be suitable (btw: MH is flying with some even older A330's than SN). But SN said in December 2009 that they would look for another type of aircraft for transatlantic operations, because they find the A333 not suitable for them to operate to the US. So probably they will choose something like A332's, but 1 or 2 A332's wouldn't make a lot of sense. So maybe they will choose for more A332's in the future. With 1 or 2 operating to the US and 1 or 2 operating to AFI (or somewhere else), they could shuffle aircrafts between US and AFI operations if needed. So there would be some flexibility. The A332 is maybe not the best aircraft for the kind of AFI operations SN operate but they can so something with them in AFI, don't they?
A lot will depand on what LH wants, because from April 2011 they have their call option for the remaining 55% of SN airholding and that's in less than a year. So normally there will not enter more than 1 long haul airplane (above this fifth A333)before LH will own SN for 100%.

[fretn]

The ILFC announcement was for SN's 5th A333 as there are no new agreements as of now.
Maybe more MH A330's in 2011 (on-going replacement with new A333's)? Alot will depend on how happy they are with the first one and what LH wants to do next.

For extra AFI operations a MH A333 would be suitable (btw: MH is flying with some even older A330's than SN). But SN said in December 2009 that they would look for another type of aircraft for transatlantic operations, because they find the A333 not suitable for them to operate to the US. So probably they will choose something like A332's, but 1 or 2 A332's wouldn't make a lot of sense. So maybe they will choose for more A332's in the future. With 1 or 2 operating to the US and 1 or 2 operating to AFI (or somewhere else), they could shuffle aircrafts between US and AFI operations if needed. So there would be some flexibility. The A332 is maybe not the best aircraft for the kind of AFI operations SN operate but they can so something with them in AFI, don't they?
A lot will depand on what LH wants, because from April 2011 they have their call option for the remaining 55% of SN airholding and that's in less than a year. So normally there will not enter more than 1 long haul airplane (above this fifth A333)before LH will own SN for 100%.

an a330-200 would be great to reach south africa!

[tolipanebas]

If the line mx is staffed accordingly there are no issues doing the daily maintenance in 75 minutes, even with all the ground handling going on.

Keep in mind though that the plane needs to be repositioned from the B pier to the A pier due to the lack of widebody gates at BRU, so you'll easily loose around 20 min of your turn around time.

Not saying you haven't a point, just trying to show it isn't such a great idea as you think it is, mainly because there are many practical complications which make it not likely to be used in daily operations.

In an ideal situation, where we'd have an optimal airport, a network that offers perfect connectivity throughout the day and brandnew planes requiring only minimal care, it might work indeed, but under the present situation, I fear it doesn't.

[tolipanebas]

If there is a 10:00 departure to Dakar, the flight would arrive back to BRU at around 19:30, which connects to the last flight to LHR.

How about getting pax from LHR for your next flight which is supposed to leave that same evening?

Also, if you'd have your plane leave to AFI around 2100, it means you'll have no feed from important places like TLS, BLQ, BIO or TRN neither.

Seems to me you'd have a hard time filling a redeye flight to AFI without pax from LHR, CDG or several of the important secondary South-European airports!

[Conti764]

Don't forget that as from next year, LH is fully in charge of SN. That might have some influences on the fleet development as well.

[Bralo20]

Don't forget that as from next year, LH is fully in charge of SN. That might have some influences on the fleet development as well.

small change: can be

[NCB]

LHR would be an issue indeed unless pax are fine with waiting 7 hours at BRU.
It does however beg the question as to why SN does not request slots for LCY. Where VG failed, SN could use it to feed its African flights and even steal some customers from Cityjet, to/from Antwerp.

Also, if you'd have your plane leave to AFI around 2100, it means you'll have no feed from important places like TLS, BLQ, BIO or TRN neither.

I think that and according to the BRU timetable, except BLQ there are both feeds for arrival and departures.
Except TLS I do not see feed potential to Africa in the fore-mentionned routes.

SN is good at feeding, it's only a waste to see all those aircraft parked at night.
What about red eyes to North Africa and Turkey using the increasing number of A319's (and I heard they are trying to secure more this year)? I heard that RAM is charging big time for their tickets, so why not fly for instance CMN (and other routes) on a seasonal red-eye schedule outbound BRU 2230-0100, inbound 0130-0500. Or CAI 0030-0530/0600-0900. Pax can connect to U.S. flights.

True, LH may or may not buy the remaining stake of SN.

I like the A332 idea, SN lacks presence in range-restrictive Austral Africa, South America, Asia and the A332 is the right size for one or two transatlantic routes (My personal favorites would be: NYC for the glamour and Africa feeding, IAH for Central and South Africa through the CO hub or the internationally underserved UA hub at the heart of America, DEN. South America and Austral Africa are interesting markets to explore.

[cnc]

SN is good at feeding, it's only a waste to see all those aircraft parked at night.

don't forget a deep cleaning of the aircraft takes a whole night, a broken toilet for example takes technicians also a couple hours at least to fix
perhaps they shouldn't be parked all night every day of the week but at least 2 days/week so ground personnel can keep it in good shape

[tolipanebas]

except BLQ there are both feeds for arrival and departures.

Have you actually bothered to check the ground time in BRU?
I've done so for those few destinations which I've mentioned to you and this is what I've found:
BIO: 5 hours waiting time in BRU for a suposed 2100 long haul departure to AFI
BLQ: 7 hours waiting time in BRU...
TRN: 11 hours waiting time in BRU even!
VCE: 4.5 hours waiting time in BRU...
You do not seriously expect European connecting pax to wait for over 5 hours in BRU, do you?

Except TLS I do not see feed potential to Africa in the fore-mentionned routes.

Well then you're wrong, although I can understand you failing to see this as it is not a natural thing to expect. But believe me, Italy is an extremely important market for AFI, definitely on a par with France, which is why SN for instance bothers having Italian in flight entertainment options.

Hey, those well-known African fake Gucci bag sellers you see everywhere in Italy must come from somewhere, don't they?

Seriously, if you don't believe me, have a look at the timetable to BRU from places like BLQ or BIO and ask yourself the all important question: 'How come they have such an odd schedule?'
Aren't these time tables very similar to the time table from CDG, with 2 daily return flights, both operating before lunchtime is over? How come, you think?

why not fly for instance CMN (and other routes) on a seasonal red-eye schedule outbound BRU 2230-0100, inbound 0130-0500. Or CAI 0030-0530/0600-0900. Pax can connect to U.S. flights.

Not going to go into details, but I'd just like to point out you're making exactly the same mistake as previously with LHR... your idea only has connectivity in ONE direction (TO the USA), but how is SN supposed to fill the outbound red-eye flight?

Look, there is a reason why long haul flights from the EU to AFI or the USA generally tend to operate in the morning, and it really takes a HUGE network carrier to support out of sync long haul flights to the South or the West of Europe. LH/AF/BA are such huge network carriers and thus have out of sync long haul operations, but SN isn't and so it doesn't have them, nor does it need them, unless you want to make them launch half empty long haul flights that is!
Better have them stick to the morning time frame for additional long haul departures, believe me!

BTW, this discussion is beginning to look a lot like a copy-paste of that clash we had over that idea of yours about sending A320s to AFI, a couple of months ago... Don't make the same mistakes as back then: there's a huge difference between theory and practice. Especially when it comes to AFI, the reality on the ground and the air in AFI isn't even near to the nice-looking theories you come up with.