EU admits making errors regarding closure of airspace

[grnkg]

Well now, here we go!

European union admits that errors have been made regarding closure of airspace:

(only in Dutch)
http://www.tijd.be/nieuws/ondernemingen ... 84-434.art

Kind regards,
GR

[tolipanebas]

Feathers, I tell you, feathers, is what we urgently need... and tar, loads of tar.

[cathay belgium]

Hi,

Feathers, I tell you, feathers, is what we urgently need... and tar, loads of tar.

How can you deal with that?
The article says that there was no precedent,rules maybe before '80, and so on...

Blame them for not having/doing serious info/research on this ..
but you can't blame them for advising no dealing with 'small risks'.
If they followed a ancient rule okay that was what they have so the conclusion was correct.
The future will have better standard/rules now so that positive !

Progress will always have a cost,this time for a few 1000pax and some nervous pilots !

Go fly now!
Cx-B

Note

Feathers and tar is also ancient now we have internet,multimedia and don't worry they 'll work
better and more efficient.
But next time you and a lot of other forget these and just vote again on those 'diapers'??

[grnkg]

Translation (in a nutshell):

European officials admit that errors have been made regarding the closure of airspace. Under US airlaw, flights would have been conducted in the current atmospheric conditions. Still according to these officials, Europe should evolve to the same model. Meanwhile, Belgian airspace remains closed until Tuesday 0800 local time.

The science behind the models used to close airspace is currently based upon asumptions, which are not based on scientific evidence, says Matthias Ruete, general-director of the dept. mobility and transport. Also the fact that some testflights conducted by commercial airlines did not encounter any problem, suggest that the safety risk is not as big as so far assumed.

In the US, under similar circumstances, airlines would have been advised "not to fly over the vulcano". It is left to the airlines themselves to decide on any other safety measures.

Currently the EU member states decide independently about closure of their airspace. The decision is based upon safety procedures of 1980 after incidents with aircraft in Indonesia and Alaska. (BA and KLM)

Kind regards,
GR.

[tolipanebas]

The article says that there was no precedent.

So this was the first time ever a volcano erupted then?
Weird, I remember some pretty large eruptions and I am definitely not 200 years old!

The only thing without a precedent is the sudden urge from Big Brother in Europe to take over from the operators and suddenly start regulating what has been working just fine for decades... and let's be clear about it, they've made a mess from it, doing so! If you absolutely can't resist the urge to do something, at least make sure to know how to do it.

This really is the problem with politicians these days: something happens and immediately they want to regulate it so they can look like they are pro-actively working for the common good in the evening news. Somebody swallows in a flippo while eating a pack of chips... let's regulate chips...
Some people get the flue on holiday, let's scare everybody by warning for a catastrophic pandemic outbrake.
A volcano erupts in Iceland, let's halt all flying without knowing where the cloud is going...

Organizing a first conference call under massive pressure of some of the largest airlines in this continent after 5 days, only to find out that there are clear procedures on how to deal with volcanic eruptions as a government in all possible details readily available (from the FAA), procedures under which operations would have been allowed to continue in this specific case we're now experiencing, is truely embarassing!

[grnkg]

they've made a mess from it

You're not the only one with this opinion,
just saw an interview on the news with Mr. Giovanni Bisignani, chairman of IATA, saying just the same.

Kind regards,
GR.

[Propwash]

You're not the only one with this opinion

Me too

It's aftercast, but I said/wrote this from day one.

Probably the overpaid 'fat neck' EU weirdo's have 'finally' read this topic.

I think Mr. Diaper King need many Nannies tonight.

It's wise to stop paying 'incompetent' €urocontrol in the first place and start a 'combined' lawsuit for 'Final' compensation

Involved passengers should stick together and do the same (start lawsuits against the incompetent €urocontrol and their Governments).

[cathay belgium]

tolipanebas wrote:
they've made a mess from it


You're not the only one with this opinion,

Progress will always have a cost

Pity enough,the next 'flu' is already looking in front of us ..

but

based upon asumptions, which are not based on scientific evidence,

but what if they didn't and the one exception became a nightmare..
probably it wouldn't have happened but just.. guess if it became a reality,
history and the conclusion on this forum would be so different..

If you don't have the evidence/knowledge in your hands ..
maybe some would fly but if I don't have the 100 percent knowledge I should have come to the
same conclusion at that time.
Afterwards.. it's easy..

But I'm affraid that since there was not so many efforts an examening this thing by the scientifics,
lessons will be forgotten ( remember train accident a month ago ) or pushed away,
the one thing now is this thing will gave certain airliners a go/ the power for flying under
less safe conditions the next time and politicians won't be able/the courage to withstand this power.
maybe I'm seeing it to black now.. but some will do..

CX-B

[Nevihta]

Tolipanebas,

though I share part of your opinion, I think you're a little to extremistic. there must be an intermediate solution. Perhaps you remember volcano eruptions before, but were the consequences over such crowded airspace, and such populated areas ?

Total closure was a mess, and probably too much, but radical measures were required, because there was no scientifical evidence that there was a danger, but there was no scientifical evidence that there was no danger neither.

So, this was a huge mess, but noone can say what would have happen otherwise.

[Propwash]

Total closure was a mess, and probably too much, but radical measures were required, because there was no scientifical evidence that there was a danger, but there was no scientifical evidence that there was no danger neither.

So, this was a huge mess, but noone can say what would have happen otherwise.

One of the biggest mistake the €urocontrol weirdo's made, was not sending up Vulcanic Ash measuring balloons.

They remain much to passive (sitting on the chair, filling their own pockets) leaving 750.000 passengers woldwide behind.

€urocontrol is the first responsable and should sued by the Airlines and all others directly/indirectly involved.

General Aviation (VFR) Operators must sue their local Governments for total incompetence/negligence.

[cathay belgium]

Hi,

Governments did act as ' a good father' since there was no accurate precedent.
They can be blamed to not do their studying/scientific measurements and so on..
but sewing the government will be ,because the lost money from the government will be paid by
you and me. ( + hulp for SN like the farmers .. )
Enough is enough.

Second:
I tought the institute who said to have the data on this was a british institute for the whole
of northern europe. ( was this Eurocontrol ?? )

Sue him,this,that is very easy to say IMHO !

If the governments will aid carriers that's more than enough.
Better learn lessons and set up a REALISTIC EFFICIENT EUROPEAN INSTITUTE to help to deal
with this AND similar events in the future.
Maybe this helps us more in the future.
You can't turn back time (yet -yes I'm a S.Hawking fan and scientific edu )!

Cx-B

[NCB]

Applause to the EU politicians for admitting errors.
I prefer to vote for the guy who admits his mistakes rather than the one that makes them, hides them and makes them all over again.

Now airlines can proceed to claiming financial compensation and we can move forward, learn from this experience.

[Propwash]

Applause to the EU politicians for admitting errors.
I prefer to vote for the guy who admits his mistakes rather than the one that makes them, hides them and makes them all over again.

Now airlines can proceed to claiming financial compensation and we can move forward, learn from this experience.

Yeh

A typical aftercast example of how the overpaid 'fat neck' EU bureaucrats/weirdo's including €urocontrol staff (No Tears, No Brains) work.

Develop legislation far beyond the ICAO Volcanic Ash recommendation (no IFR clearances in Volcanic Ash Areas), without thinking of the consequences and Volcanic Ash Area measurement actions to be taken. The bureaucrats/weirdo's 'might have' thought(?), this would 'actually' never happen in the EU.

Everyone was sitting stoned and relaxed behind their desk, cashing tax-free salaries without thinking (No Brains) their legislation might be 'totally' wrong, outdated or not fit the bill. Securing their 'own' job careers prevealed above wishfull thinking, common sense and listening to the Aviation industry in general.

Believe it or not, the same EU bureaucrats/weirdo's were telling blocked Air Travellers, that the Airlines were responsable for 'decent' accommodation and ticket cashback etc.

Some Governments closed their airspace for 'low level' VFR traffic. Others with more brains didn't.

Have the EU and local Governments learned a lesson? NO they didn"t!
They will 'always' be overdominant and NOT going back to their core business (providing data only to the Aviation industry/Pilot In Command).

The Aviation Industry (Pilot In Command) with exception of Air Kamikazie, is perfectly capable of making their own go or no-go decission.

Besides HUGE financial Airline and General Aviation losses, many Air Travellers lost 'additional' money as well.

Example: Family (Dad, Mom and 2 kids) where blocked in Portugal. Due to work, the 'unhappy' Family had to be back in Belgium by Monday morning. The only option was to hire a car. Car hire cost € 2.000,- + tollways + fuel + enroute Hotel!

Thanks to the EU bureaucrats/weirdo's, the family mentioned above will not Fly again!

In other words, the Aviation industry lost 4 customers :thumbdown:

[regi]

No no no, we will not stop flying because we were stuck somewhere in the Algarve, Burgas or Bodrum on a all included charter holiday.
For the same reason that people did not stop driving when their cars broke down in huge numbers 20-30 years ago driving south to the French riviera.
We ( generally speaking ) all have a short memory.
And holidays are holy matter.
We will only think a bit further when booking the next holiday. We will ask questions about travel insurances, responsabilities, repayments. But that couple of 2 adults with 2 little screamers in the back of the rental car will go next year to Sweden, Ireland or Poland. Or whatever. This year they will stay home, to save money for the next Big Escape from Boredom. ( BEB)
Imagine they were taken back by the Brittish navy. How many vomit bags they have on board such a vessel?

[TCAS_climb]

One of the biggest mistake the €urocontrol weirdo's made, was not sending up Vulcanic Ash measuring balloons.

Are we sure this is part of their mandate? Does it exist? Where can I buy one?

This is more about meteorology. AFAIK we're not yet in the Single European Sky and therefore...

EUROCONTROL's mission is to harmonise and integrate air navigation services in Europe, aiming at the creation of a uniform air traffic management (ATM) system for civil and military users, in order to achieve the safe, secure, orderly, expeditious and economic flow of traffic throughout Europe, while minimising adverse environmental impact.

[Propwash]

Are we sure this is part of their mandate? Does it exist? Where can I buy one?

This is more about meteorology. AFAIK we're not yet in the Single European Sky and therefore...

EUROCONTROL's mission is to harmonise and integrate air navigation services in Europe, aiming at the creation of a uniform air traffic management (ATM) system for civil and military users, in order to achieve the safe, secure, orderly, expeditious and economic flow of traffic throughout Europe, while minimising adverse environmental impact.

The answer is 'more or less' in your lower quote

Off course €urocontrol doesn't have Volcanic Ash measuring tools (balloons) BUT they should have asked each memberstate to send them up on a regular basis to know if Air Safety was or became an issue.

Compare it with a fire. Every fire brigade wanna know the levels of danger by meassuring. If safety become an issue, they will evacuate a local area only. Not a hole County, Country or Continent!

Correct me if I'm wrong, €urocontrol pulled the plug (after VA rumours) in the firstplace.

The Dutch (example) have it's own Flying Aerospace Laboratory and they didn't or weren't 'even' asked to meassure. It was KLM and LH :thumbup: who went airborne to prove nothing was wrong and Air Safety wasn't an issue (opposite world).

[TCAS_climb]

Mmmh...

Common sense (i.e. the fire brigade example) is one thing. Legal certainty and regulatory requirement are sometimes another thing. Is there someone in charge and responsible for such situation at a European level? Don't think so...

[Propwash]

Is there someone in charge and responsible for such situation at a European level? Don't think so...

Someone from ... pretty-much a non Country

[regi]

Positive attitude:
when I see so many angry people who can not get back home after their holidays , I just think: we as Belgians must be happy that we are so rich that we can travel to Cape town with the children for an Easter holiday.

[Conti764]

Now airlines can proceed to claiming financial compensation and we can move forward, learn from this experience.

Yep, in the future do it the American way: put the responsability with the airlines.

Force the airlines to fully refund passengers who do not want to fly in these circumstances, if they'll happen again and if the airline decides to take a chance at their own risk.

If something goes wrong, go after the airline that took the chance.

And in the meantime, compensate them for the losses they had.