Belgocontrol is Close to Bankruptcy?

[Nevihta]

I don't think so.
Air traffic is vital to the country.
There is such a thing as requisition of civil servants, or alternatively setting up a military ATC.

Militaries are not always qualified to manage such civilian traffic.

[jan_olieslagers]

ATCO's have well pondered and tempered their actions up till now, and I trust they'll keep their heads even when it gets hotter. After all, this is one of the qualities they were selected for! Unless absolutely desperate, they won't disrupt traffic to a degree that might justify bringing in the military.

BTW with all respect for our military, but I cannot imagine them able to handle the very busy traffic as smoothly as the present staff. They simply don't have the experience. Plus they'd likely have to operate their own less sophisticated equipment. Actually it might be the most effective way of illustrating how good the current ATCO's are at their job.

BTW I am not so sure how happy the military would be to take over - as soldiers, they have to obey orders, and they will - but their enthusiasm might be even less than Belgocontrol staff's right now.

[Nevihta]

ATCO's have well pondered and tempered their actions up till now, and I trust they'll keep their heads even when it gets hotter. After all, this is one of the qualities they were selected for! Unless absolutely desperate, they won't disrupt traffic to a degree that might justify bringing in the military.

BTW with all respect for our military, but I cannot imagine them able to handle the very busy traffic as smoothly as the present staff. They simply don't have the experience. Plus they'd likely have to operate their own less sophisticated equipment. Actually it might be the most effective way of illustrating how good the current ATCO's are at their job.

BTW I am not so sure how happy the military would be to take over - as soldiers, they have to obey orders, and they will - but their enthusiasm might be even less than Belgocontrol staff's right now.

Once again, militaries aren't qualified in airspaces such as Brussels approach, so they simply cannot take over civilian.
The only place where we could imagine that it would be possible is Liege, but we're far away from it.

[Propwash]

The only place where we could imagine that it would be possible is Liege, but we're far away from it.

I 'personally' won't take that for granted.

BTW final deadline is July 1th.

[Nevihta]

The only place where we could imagine that it would be possible is Liege, but we're far away from it.

I 'personally' won't take that for granted.

BTW final deadline is July 1th.

there's simply not enough of them. and even if Liege works; if ACC is on strike, nothing takes off or land in Liege.

[Acid-drop]

Finally what happened ? How many flights canceled or diverted in Liège ?

[Acid-drop]

nothing bad it seems, only 15 min delay

[Acid-drop]

Reaction of minister Antoine again minister Schouppe
http://www.lesoir.be/actualite/belgique ... 0541.shtml
(Belga news, translation is probably somewhere)

[jan_olieslagers]

Having perused that text, but not profoundly analysed, and without wanting to stir yet another inner-Belgian beehive buzzing, I must say I find some truth in Mr Antoine's words: Belgocontrol's problems are not only financial - and even if they were, they could not be settled only by payment by airports of the services they received.
At least, such is my understanding, based mainly on what I learned here on https://www.aviation24.be

And yes, there is some truth to an earlier word in this same thread:

Always bringing that to an opposition between north and south, so improductive.

[jan_olieslagers]

militaries aren't qualified in airspaces such as Brussels approach, so they simply cannot take over civilian.

I am curious to learn more on this subject, we might even wish to continue the discussion in a separate thread.

Who actually issues qualifications to ATC staff? Is there a single authority for both civilian and military controllers? There is an inventory of controlled airspace zones/areas in Belgian Airspace, but is it accompanied by a listing of which areas may be controlled by whom?

The one thing I can imagine is that, in an extreme urgency, control IS taken over by military controllers but with a much reduced level of service, such as class D for all TMA's and CTR's - which would lead to increased separation, thus to less capacity, and delays for the flights still operative.

Leaving in place the earlier reserves about the state of the equipment, and the number of qualified staff the military can muster.

[jan_olieslagers]

BTW I was flying today and was - as I have been on almost every occasion - happy with the quiet, professional, solid service from BRUSSELS INFORMATION on 126.900

Just one sample, and quite contrary to some discussions on these pages, the national "courtoisie" was warm to the heart in following conversation:

Pilot: "Brussels information, oscar oscar tango x x goedemiddag!"
Controller (with a pronounced but very charming French accent) "Oscar Oscar Tango x x, koede middak, go ahead"
Pilot (realising his mistake): "Brussels information, bonjour, Papa Alfa two eight, just out of ... , next .... , request traffic information, O O - T x x "

It is not difficult to be polite, even respecting the requirement for terseness on the air frequencies. The above example could be a lesson to many. There's less problems with real aviators, I think.

[Zorba]

Pilot: "Brussels information, oscar oscar tango x x goedemiddag!"
Controller (with a pronounced but very charming French accent) "Oscar Oscar Tango x x, koede middak, go ahead"
Pilot (realising his mistake): "Brussels information, bonjour, Papa Alfa two eight, just out of ... , next .... , request traffic information, O O - T x x "

Very charming indeed

[EBBU]

OFF topic

BTW I was flying today and was - as I have been on almost every occasion - happy with the quiet, professional, solid service from BRUSSELS INFORMATION on 126.900

It's nice to hear that the efforts of the Flight info are appreciated... It can get very hectic on a nice clear spring day on the 126.9. And only one controller for the entire class G airspace...
Trust me, you can feel 'slightly' outnumbered from time to time

[Propwash]

Rumours saying, losses are around 35 MIO €

[jan_olieslagers]

militaries aren't qualified in airspaces such as Brussels approach, so they simply cannot take over civilian.

I am curious to learn more on this subject, we might even wish to continue the discussion in a separate thread.

Who actually issues qualifications to ATC staff? Is there a single authority for both civilian and military controllers? There is an inventory of controlled airspace zones/areas in Belgian Airspace, but is it accompanied by a listing of which areas may be controlled by whom?

Nevihta, your answer is still being waited for!

[liege-bierset]

Rumours saying, losses are around 35 MIO €

Annual report says: 5 M EUR losses in 2009.
But estimates for 2010...25 M EUR.

[jan_olieslagers]

Annual report says: 5 M EUR losses in 2009.
But estimates for 2010...25 M EUR.

That's a lot of money! But most surprising is the ratio: how could the losses be multiplied by five over one single year? It's only an estimate, I know, but even a doubling of the losses would be very bad.

[Nevihta]

militaries aren't qualified in airspaces such as Brussels approach, so they simply cannot take over civilian.

I am curious to learn more on this subject, we might even wish to continue the discussion in a separate thread.

Who actually issues qualifications to ATC staff? Is there a single authority for both civilian and military controllers? There is an inventory of controlled airspace zones/areas in Belgian Airspace, but is it accompanied by a listing of which areas may be controlled by whom?

Nevihta, your answer is still being waited for!

Well, I don't really have an answer.
I think there is no single authority, and that militaries issues qualifications to their controllers.
For civilian controllers, I think there is a department in charge of that in "the Federale Overheidsdienst Mobiliteit en Vervoer/ Service public fédéral mobilité et transports"
Areas are clearly civilian or military, and can be delegated from one to another under certain circumstances.