Ryanair comes back to Ostend !

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regi
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Re: Ryanair comes back to Ostend !

Post by regi »

liege-bierset wrote:"Business Ethics" :shock:
OO-JFP wrote:I can only speak for myself and the region I live in. I don't know how familiar you are with the northern part of the country but we speak another language, have a different culture which includes a different way of spending money and apparently some of us still show some knowledge of business ethics. The result of "donating" that amount of money to MoL will only result in a shift of employment and passengers from Brussels and Charleroi whereby CRL probably will be the biggest looser as a big part of the flemish people will make a trip from OST iso CRL. Is it that what you want?
And what to say about Brussels?
Nice people you are in Wallonia and especially: very rich in a country that is bankrupt. But yes the countries' debts are paid by "the nation" not by Wallonia and we all know who subsidies the nation...
Dear JFP,
Of course we known " the northern part of our country". I have many (real) friends there.We do business with you, we are your main customer, we spend our EUR's at the Vlaams kust, we use your airport, we buy meat and vegetables,e.a. witloof and also speculos from you, Flamish bricklayers have built my house, most of people in my area do buy furnitures in Tongeren...-and you name it.
We have no bones in the nose :lol: :lol: and we like to visit Brugge or enjoy your famous paint masters. But I feel insulted by your reccurent flow of clichés about Wallonia as well by your cynical arrogance. Te veel is te veel ! You should watch your own plate, not always that clean, as you know.
At the end, to come back on toppic, I very much share Cathay's opinion. I still have questions about FR at MST (of course very seasonal business, with or without "carrots".)
I do understand your reaction that you feel personally insulted. The general misunderstanding between the 2 regions is that we blame the people who live there. But we should blame the leaders who made those situations possible. I compared the latest development with those subsidies to Charleroi at the North Sea. I know from very closeby how an investment program runs in Wallonie - and I can confirm it is very different than in Flanders. A Liege entrepreneur complained to me that he had to hire personnel send to him by the local FGTB representative. This entrepreneur was not free to chose his own personnel. If he would not obey, the local council would close down his factory because of polution. In movies this is called mafia.
I do feel pitty with the Walloon people who have to undergo the mismanagment of the politicians they have not voted for. Most of the Walloon people did NOT vote for the PS - but >90% of the state organisations personnel have a member card of the PS. :roll:
We had untill the nineties here in Flanders the CVP-state. Quite comparable to what the word PS-State stands for. ( the combination of a political party, the union and the medical insurance )
I am afraid that with examples of the disgrace of those subsidies we are going back to such a period where you have to align yourself with a political party/union/health care organisation to avoid that you become an outcast ( job/pension/unemployment fee/school,...)
The most striking thing is that NVA stands behind those subsidies. 2 elections ago, this same Flemish minister Geert Bourgeois promised that he would NEVER join a government if B-H-V was not split before the elections. ( I still have his email in which he promised it to me personally , imagine how I feel ) Elections came and...NVA joined the coalition. Without the B-H-V case solved. This lowlife creature should be sent to court because of breaking promises to the voters.
We Flemish always forget that we were always cheated by our own collaborators. We should not blame the Walloon population. It is not their fault.
For foreign outsiders who don't understand all this: remember the movie "Braveheart" with Mel Gibson. On the battlefield William Wallace is left alone by his fellow Scottish noblemen . The real enemy were not the English, it were his own people who betrayed him.

Acid-drop
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Re: Ryanair comes back to Ostend !

Post by Acid-drop »

I can only speak for myself and the region I live in. I don't know how familiar you are with the northern part of the country but we speak another language, have a different culture which includes a different way of spending money and apparently some of us still show some knowledge of business ethics. The result of "donating" that amount of money to MoL will only result in a shift of employment and passengers from Brussels and Charleroi whereby CRL probably will be the biggest looser as a big part of the flemish people will make a trip from OST iso CRL. Is it that what you want?
And what to say about Brussels?
Nice people you are in Wallonia and especially: very rich in a country that is bankrupt. But yes the countries' debts are paid by "the nation" not by Wallonia and we all know who subsidies the nation...
Finally you discovered that your beloved region isn't an island in the middle of the ocean, that you have to fallow the same rules that the rest of Europe. Business ethics as you call it are the same for everyone. All airports in Europe have the same rule and you play the game if you want it, if you don't, don't complain. You can't want OST to grow without playing the same rules than other airports anywhere in Europe.
Unlike you, I think flemish politics had for once a clear view of the situation, and that was really missing in flemish aviation until now.
Indeed, we speak a different language and have different culture. Unlike some of you (and this “some” tend to increase, sadly), we don't wish only bad stuff to the other side of the country. We are friendly people.

(Not everything is black or white in the south of the country, I hate many of waloon politics decisions, you shouldn't concider all waloons the same way. Some of us are victims too.)
Do we 'really' think after the Crime City Airport (CRL) investments (including 'artificial' job creation), it's a win-win situation for the 'tax paying' community?
Yes it's a win-win. Obviously you have difficulties to see the full picture and you keep your concentration on a small part of the story. Just make a small calculation on how much it cost us (you) to pay an unemployed people. Now, imagine the difference if you create 2500 jobs, you don't have to pay them anymore and they participate to health care, they spend more => more VAT, ... It's a huge benefit. That’s why a lot of jobs in a lot of different sectors are subsidized in Belgium.
And anyway, let's make a simple calculation: if you subsidies 30% of any ryanair flight, you get 21% of the ticket price back immediately only with VAT, you get 15% of the food the pax eat at the airport, you get 21% of any phone call, you get 90% of the gas they use to travel to the airport, you get a nice % of the airplane fuel, so the numbers looks all different, the state will win. Don’t be scared.

regi
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Re: Ryanair comes back to Ostend !

Post by regi »

hold on a second: where do you get those 2,500 jobs from ?
Where is the study?

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cathay belgium
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Re: Ryanair comes back to Ostend !

Post by cathay belgium »

Hi,
Acid-drop wrote:Yes it's a win-win. Obviously you have difficulties to see the full picture and you keep your concentration on a small part of the story. Just make a small calculation on how much it cost us (you) to pay an unemployed people. Now, imagine the difference if you create 2500 jobs, you don't have to pay them anymore and they participate to health care, they spend more => more VAT, ... It's a huge benefit. That’s why a lot of jobs in a lot of different sectors are subsidized in Belgium.
And anyway, let's make a simple calculation: if you subsidies 30% of any ryanair flight, you get 21% back immediately only with VAT, you get 15% of the food the pax eat at the airport, you get 21% of any phone call, you get 90% of the gas they use to travel to the airport, you get a nice % of the airplane fuel, so the numbers looks all different, the state will win. Don’t be scared.
I doubt it !
Yes they keep people from the 'dop' offcourse ! but how !
The jobs are subsidied !
21 % tax (? you give 30/100 on a ticket ! free or lesser airport tax = reason of getting FR in the first place !)
and food at airport - phone calls ? are you serious ?
90/100 on gas they use to the airport ??
Percent of airplane fuel , I tought this was always without tax , okay you pay it for your car but airliners don't otherwise FR and the most of all!!!! airliners simply can't fly anymore !!!
Let's talk about ecology on this point ... I don't even start ...
The state will win ??? Mol win !! The state wins ( hi I brought FR back to OST ! vote me ) but never forget
the real state the people lost !! SPQB(elgium) !!
Don't be scared ?? With these arguments I think I'm scared to death and the next generation may
sew you of first degree murder ! ( of the belgium schatkist ).

Sorry, but if you wanna give reason explain them more careful or with better toughts.
I'm sorry.

CX-B
( Nothing against OST my favourite kust city (Mariakerke ) or FR ( I flown them myself from EIN ) )
but it's not because I use it myself I can't be critical on them and the situation. )
New types flown 2024 : DO228, A338 , PC6

Propwash

Re: Ryanair comes back to Ostend !

Post by Propwash »

cathay belgium wrote:I doubt it !
Me too ;)
cathay belgium wrote:Yes they keep people from the 'dop' offcourse ! but how !
The jobs are subsidied !
Unless you believe in 'guardian' angels or Chinese bookkeeping, sooner or later entire .be will become a 'virtual' social workshop :thumbdown:

Acid-drop
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Re: Ryanair comes back to Ostend !

Post by Acid-drop »

regi wrote:hold on a second: where do you get those 2,500 jobs from ?
Where is the study?
That's just an example. (although it's a reality in the south)

Propwash

Re: Ryanair comes back to Ostend !

Post by Propwash »

If the Wallonians don't ..... (issue conflict) I think OST needs 'more or less' the same EU decision/approval as CRL (see: The Commission's decision on Charleroi airport promotes the activities of low-cost airlines and regional development)

regi
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Re: Ryanair comes back to Ostend !

Post by regi »

Acid-drop wrote:
regi wrote:hold on a second: where do you get those 2,500 jobs from ?
Where is the study?
That's just an example. (although it's a reality in the south)
Thank you for your quick and honnest reply.
But it doesn't look good for you. Sorry.
This entire subject started to shift when raw data came available. ( the subsidies) Suddenly one member after the other started to see the truth.
When you give a number of 2,500 jobs, you must realize that people are suddenly woken up.

Now another question: where comes the number from as it is a reality in the South ?
Be aware about the point of employment. If you work for a company with a contract according Swiss/Irish/Polish law , this job does not fall under those 2,500 jobs in the South ( I suppose you refer to everything around Charleroi airport - or have you added Liège as well ?)
If you add those with the numbers, we enter a completely different discussion about pension plans, unemployment fees, legal rights, union fees, medical plans, etcetera. And that could change the entire Excell sheet. I know that it is something that responsable politicians would like to wave away with 1 handstroke as "not relevant" . But ask those employees within 20 years the same question, when they feel themselves left in the dessert without any pension, back up, defense.
:?

Extra question: are those 2,500 jobs in the south actual jobs or the total since Charleroi was developed? Meaning: how many people do work actually in and around it, now, today.

Acid-drop
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Re: Ryanair comes back to Ostend !

Post by Acid-drop »

National bank of Belgium estimated 14.551 direct and indirect jobs for the 2 airports of Wallonia, for 2006. It has probably increased a lot since since both airport have a 20% per year growth rate (faster for CRL, slower for LGG).

Latest communication from Liège (JAN 2010) : "in 2009, at the airport's centre for economic development, employment was 2,800 direct jobs and 6,700 indirect jobs"

From Charleroi (OCT 2009), it seems to be 450 direct and 2000 indirect but that seems to be only BSCA.

regi
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Re: Ryanair comes back to Ostend !

Post by regi »

Acid-drop wrote:National bank of Belgium estimated 14.551 direct and indirect jobs for the 2 airports of Wallonia, for 2006. It has probably increased a lot since since both airport have a 20% per year growth rate (faster for CRL, slower for LGG).

Latest communication from Liège (JAN 2010) : "in 2009, at the airport's centre for economic development, employment was 2,800 direct jobs and 6,700 indirect jobs"

From Charleroi (OCT 2009), it seems to be 450 direct and 2000 indirect but that seems to be only BSCA.
Thank you, that is data.

Acid-drop
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Re: Ryanair comes back to Ostend !

Post by Acid-drop »

Quite an interesting article here (in french only, i'm sorry)
http://www.lesechos.fr/journal20100317/ ... 860701.htm

It says Ryanair had up to 195 millions euro subsidies last year in europe, 40% of they benefits. (estimation)
BUT
In Bergerac, the benefits of ryanair tourists are estimated to 265 millions euro while they gave 2.3 millions to ryanair (3 year period)

Stij
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Re: Ryanair comes back to Ostend !

Post by Stij »

Hi Acid-Drop,

probably this is true and valid... if your airport is a desitnation airport in the south... I wonder if the return on investment will be the same if the airport is an origin airport...

Cheers,

Stij

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Re: Ryanair comes back to Ostend !

Post by Acid-drop »

good remark, it would be interesting to know the % of south-going people.

regi
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Re: Ryanair comes back to Ostend !

Post by regi »

Stij wrote:Hi Acid-Drop,

probably this is true and valid... if your airport is a desitnation airport in the south... I wonder if the return on investment will be the same if the airport is an origin airport...

Cheers,

Stij
and what if Ryanair would not have been there, and the people came by other means of transport, spending the same amount of money. :?

liege-bierset
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Re: Ryanair comes back to Ostend !

Post by liege-bierset »

Regi and friends,

We are supposed to debate about "Ryanair comes back (maybe) to Ostend"
And once again, debate turns sour. Most probably we (the Walloons) should not put our nose in this particular tread, after all it's your money and your politicians. But for some of you, this is againg an opportunity to gunning for Wallonia and for sure CLR and LGG. We are used to and we know what the hidden agenda is.(not that hidden...)
Regi, your story about Liege (Si non e vero e ben trovato). Btw, I have tons of similar stories from your own side, not to speak about L&H, smeepijp, corruption, hormones traffic , unscrupulous civil servants, carpet industry... Everybody should clean his own front door. ;)
I' m old enough to remember my working time at Cockerill (steel industry). Everyday, busses were bringing in hundreds of workers from Limburg. None of us were upset by that They were hard working guys and nice people; we had a lot of fun together. Where that generation has gone?
Than the steel downturn was hitting the Walloon region. Foreign consultants were brought in by Government (Mr Maertens, yes the same as "Wallen Buiten", already !). Money was spent at restructuring dying industry instead of building new technology. Similar amont of money,maybe more, was given to Zeebrugge, Antwerpen, petrochemical industry...(The famous "compensations"and "Clé de répartition"). Economy leadership tilted to the north thanks to good seaports, strong petrochemicals and also an entreprenorial middle class (small and middle caps excellent netting.)
That was the beginning of the end of our country. Selfish behaviour, acute nationalism, "burst Begium !, CPAS, unemployment, defeatism , resignation, PS, VB, shame, underestimation, wooncode: these are (some) names of the game.
Just a last one: PS, Cdh, MR are not my cup of thea. But one thing is sure: I would be in your shoes, than it would be almost impossible for me to give a d** c**** vote. And for B-H-V, w'll see what Mr Dehaen has in mind :? :? Maybe the same dream map as the one presented in NYK by the Tourism Board.
Have a nice day and hope, back to aviation.

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fretn
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Re: Ryanair comes back to Ostend !

Post by fretn »

Do not take Regi seriously, he does not certainly represent my opinion.

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Airbus330lover
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Re: Ryanair comes back to Ostend !

Post by Airbus330lover »

Back on topic...

any serious news from FR?

regi
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Re: Ryanair comes back to Ostend !

Post by regi »

Airbus330lover wrote:Back on topic...

any serious news from FR?
Oh yes:
if you want to know what Ryanair means: lies and betrayal. And even disrespect for the Belgian jurisdiction.
They lost their case against Testaankoop ( organisation to protect consumers ) , but they claim on their website that they won it. Utterly disinformation. They have lost it. Final.

http://www.test-aankoop.be/vakantie-en- ... 642903.htm

And Ryanair says this, just the opposite:
http://www.ryanair.com/doc/news/2010/Ry ... iation.pdf

If you read well, you see that they will change their website. So they acknowledge in fact that they lost the case. But the title says the opposite.

Look, it is simple. If you don't want to live according the laws of a nation , leave it.

cnc
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Re: Ryanair comes back to Ostend !

Post by cnc »

regi wrote: Look, it is simple. If you don't want to live according the laws of a nation , leave it.
damn i should migrate then :lol:
btw anyone an idea if they would get power in/out stands at OST? i know they don't use a pushback at CRL but no idea about other airports to be honest

airazurxtror
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Re: Ryanair comes back to Ostend !

Post by airazurxtror »

regi wrote: if you want to know what Ryanair means: lies and betrayal. And even disrespect for the Belgian jurisdiction.
They lost their case against Testaankoop ( organisation to protect consumers ) , but they claim on their website that they won it. Utterly disinformation. They have lost it. Final.

Look, it is simple. If you don't want to live according the laws of a nation , leave it.

They have lost on some points, they have won on others; it's not an out-and-out defeat or victory neither for TA, nor for Ryanair nor for Brussels Airlines - remember, Brussels Airlines was also involved in the case, but it seems entirely to have escaped regi's attention ...
Thus, Brussels Airlines, according to regi, it's simple : if you don't want to live according to the laws of Belgium, leave it !

NB : Here is the exact position of Ryanair :
The Namur court judgment made a few minor recommendations
about Ryanair’s website and we will appeal or implement these in due course

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