Brussels Airlines joining Star Alliance in December 2009

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NCB

Re: Brussels Airlines joining Star Alliance in December 2009

Post by NCB »

On the other hand, given jetblue's presence at JFK, SN might have a good reason to prefer it over EWR, even though CO has a big hub there; especially if SN and CO aren't going to codeshare, which looks like a possibility indeed as SN is going to offer connections to most US destinations through IAD and ORD on UA.
How do you guys analyse the markets?

ORD does offer connections to most U.S. destinations west of ORD.
For connections to anything East of ORD, you need to be at IAD.

Also, Jetblue has BOS as "focus city", you can't compare frequencies and choice of destinations with JFK which is their only hub. This is important for feeding.
Over half the B6 destinations out of BOS are either West coast or outside the U.S.

Last but not least, Boston is not New York.
LH is flying there out of FRA and MUC, LX out of ZRH already. UA, US and CO also offer possibilities.
US can't fill B752's between Philly and BRU at decent yields with all the feeding they have, so SN defintely won't fill a B752 to Boston, why bother discussing it all over and so much in depth?
BA and AF also fly to BOS, AA and DL also compete on the route and point to point is limited to a few exchange students. BOS offers no possibilities for pax travelling further to Africa.

BRU-JFK has alot more potential for point-to-point.
Diamond, stocks and finance, tourists and VFR's. Daily is a must, but A333 is too big.
A332 would be my choice, but SN need a better on-board product before they dare to dream taking on the TATL battle.

As said, CO is too expensive and EWR is not an airport of choice (though for many it should be more convenient). Basically, EWR is to JFK what ORY is to CDG and LGW is to LHR.

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airlines joining Star Alliance in December 2009

Post by RoMax »

NCB
If BOS would be that bad, why was it than the most profitable US route in the time of Sabena? This was one of the only long haul routes (except of AFI) that was profitable for Sabena. Ok that's already more than 8 years ago, but is the market changed that hard? I don't think so. :?

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Atlantis
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Re: Brussels Airlines joining Star Alliance in December 2009

Post by Atlantis »

tolipanebas wrote:
Apart from being an uncalled remark, to which I will not respond as I don't feel the need to lower myself to your standards, sir, I'd once more like to point out that in in that case, UA for instance has been serving ORD from BRU for years too then already, with 'merely' a technical stop in IAD. :roll:

Let's be serious for a second, shall we?

I may not know much indeed, but I do know enough to see the difference between a commercial tactic to sell a connection flight as attractively as possible. That the hubbing happens at LHR iso at JFK, that both legs may have the same flight number or that the first leg is flown on AA as well (iso for instance BA) does not make the route any less a connection however...
To follow your example: Can you fly from BRU to BOS WITHOUT GETTING OFF and BACK ON a plane somewhere in between: YES or NO?
About a year ago, or longer, I gave an overview of the long haul possibilities. I was saying in that time that AA and BRU wants a small mini hub for AA. You also was laughing away this idea. But what do we see this winter '09-'10 at BRU, a third plane of AA serving BOS via LHR. At this moment we could see B757 and two B767 of AA on the tarmac of BRU. But as I said, BOS is seasonal.
AA will not leave soon Brussels Airport as they are very happy with their ops to BRU.

UA was flying for years IAD direct with an extention to SFO, if I'm not wrong. Years ago they switched it into ORD. One plane on the tarmac of BRU.
UA is now going to split them: one plane on the tarmac of BRU to IAD, one plane on the tarmac of BRU to ORD.

BTW do you remember Biman? It was not a direct flight to Dhaka but in both directions via Dubai with their DC10-30. One plane on the tarmac of BRU.

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines joining Star Alliance in December 2009

Post by Conti764 »

NCB wrote: As said, CO is too expensive and EWR is not an airport of choice (though for many it should be more convenient). Basically, EWR is to JFK what ORY is to CDG and LGW is to LHR.
Can you show the fares you have found? Cause in my knowledge CO's fare are on par with the other companies flying BRU-NYC while CO is only inferior to 9W, but superior to the other American carriers.

brusselsairlinesfan
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Re: Brussels Airlines joining Star Alliance in December 2009

Post by brusselsairlinesfan »

brussels airlines to the US! Maybe THE good surprise of year 2010...

On the other hand, I guess that BRU - CDG will get a double daily flight as from april... but still impossible to use SN european network from Paris... why do they reserve ALL seats for connecting long haul pax only? I would love to fly CDG - BRU - TXL/CPH/FCO/MAD/BCN & co....

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airlines joining Star Alliance in December 2009

Post by RoMax »

brusselsairlinesfan wrote:brussels airlines to the US! Maybe THE good surprise of year 2010...

On the other hand, I guess that BRU - CDG will get a double daily flight as from april... but still impossible to use SN european network from Paris... why do they reserve ALL seats for connecting long haul pax only? I would love to fly CDG - BRU - TXL/CPH/FCO/MAD/BCN & co....
About the US. I've always said that I only think that the US will come as LH is the owner for 100%. LH can easely order some new airplanes and repclace older aircrafts, these older aircrafts can join the fleet of SN. So that's why I think it is possible that SN can start US operations from the end of 2011.

About Paris, do they reserve al seats for connecting to AFI only? I didn't now that. But I know that they said some months ago in Paris (when they promote their network together with LH and LX) that they will fly with own metal two times a day to Paris and they would extend their contracts with "Thales". So maybe they hold their own seats for connecting to AFI and the trains (Thales) for point-to-point and connecting to Europe.

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tolipanebas
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Re: Brussels Airlines joining Star Alliance in December 2009

Post by tolipanebas »

Atlantis wrote:About a year ago, or longer, I gave an overview of the long haul possibilities. I was saying in that time that AA and BRU wants a small mini hub for AA. You also was laughing away this idea. But what do we see this winter '09-'10 at BRU, a third plane of AA serving BOS via LHR. At this moment we could see B757 and two B767 of AA on the tarmac of BRU. But as I said, BOS is seasonal.
AA will not leave soon Brussels Airport as they are very happy with their ops to BRU.

UA was flying for years IAD direct with an extention to SFO, if I'm not wrong. Years ago they switched it into ORD. One plane on the tarmac of BRU.
UA is now going to split them: one plane on the tarmac of BRU to IAD, one plane on the tarmac of BRU to ORD.

BTW do you remember Biman? It was not a direct flight to Dhaka but in both directions via Dubai with their DC10-30. One plane on the tarmac of BRU.
All factually correct, but I fail to see the importance of this lecture.

It must surely be due to my complete and silly ignorance (sic), but I still fail to see how a destination which can only be reached after an intermediate stop where you're being sent off your plane to board a new flight (even if it is the same aircraft once again) is said to be served from BRU.... Other than the idea to be back on the same plane and the same flight with the same flight number, you might as well have taken a BA flight through LHR, a LH flight through FRA or a CO flight through EWR, really!

The bottom line is BOS may be offered from BRU, but is currently NOT being served from BRU, yet BOS could definitely become an SN destination in future indeed, provided they get permission to team up with jetblue, in a way similar as LH is already doing right now...

Interestingly enough, LH also connects to jetblue's eastcoast and carribean network at the 2 destinations SN has mentioned: BOS and JFK. Coincidence? There aren't any when it comes to network development within the LH group.

brusselsairlinesfan
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Re: Brussels Airlines joining Star Alliance in December 2009

Post by brusselsairlinesfan »

MR_Boeing wrote:
brusselsairlinesfan wrote:brussels airlines to the US! Maybe THE good surprise of year 2010...

On the other hand, I guess that BRU - CDG will get a double daily flight as from april... but still impossible to use SN european network from Paris... why do they reserve ALL seats for connecting long haul pax only? I would love to fly CDG - BRU - TXL/CPH/FCO/MAD/BCN & co....
About the US. I've always said that I only think that the US will come as LH is the owner for 100%. LH can easely order some new airplanes and repclace older aircrafts, these older aircrafts can join the fleet of SN. So that's why I think it is possible that SN can start US operations from the end of 2011.

About Paris, do they reserve al seats for connecting to AFI only? I didn't now that. But I know that they said some months ago in Paris (when they promote their network together with LH and LX) that they will fly with own metal two times a day to Paris and they would extend their contracts with "Thales". So maybe they hold their own seats for connecting to AFI and the trains (Thales) for point-to-point and connecting to Europe.
About the Paris/Brussels/Amsterdam/Cologne High speed train, Maybe you meant "Thalys"? I didn't know about any future agreement between Thalys & SN (back to the future?!).
Anyway, I don't understand why - even flying on own metal - brussels airlines does not open the BRU-CDG flight at decent prices to passengers interested in flying them to Europe through BRU...

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airlines joining Star Alliance in December 2009

Post by RoMax »

brusselsairlinesfan wrote: About the Paris/Brussels/Amsterdam/Cologne High speed train, Maybe you meant "Thalys"? I didn't know about any future agreement between Thalys & SN (back to the future?!).
Anyway, I don't understand why - even flying on own metal - brussels airlines does not open the BRU-CDG flight at decent prices to passengers interested in flying them to Europe through BRU...
I'm sorry, I ment "Thalys" indeed. :oops:
There was always an agreement between SN and Thalys, but they use it only when they can not get al pax on their CDG flight. For example when a group of pax out of AFI missed their connection flight to CDG because of delays with security or something. Than SN will place these pax on the Thalys. I am not really sure if this was always like that but I remember me that is was some months ago like that.

diminbru
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Re: Brussels Airlines joining Star Alliance in December 2009

Post by diminbru »

tolipanebas wrote:
Conti764 wrote:CO too expensive? Come on... And if they are a bit more expensive then the others it is because they have the superior American product from BRU. I'd choose CO over SN any time!
tolipanebas wrote:Now now, don't be too in love with CO.

They are good, but they are still just American, meaning for instance they have very 'casually working' cabin crew, fairly poor language skills and low onboard service levels: for instance the snack you receive prior landing in EWR is just a pack of chips and some candy, which was litterally thrown to me... contrary to AA its was done with a smile, but still, that's something I've only experienced on US airlines...
------------
Now I want to make a little comment on the language skills of the CO cabin crew. I have two friends working for CO. They are both very fluent in French. They always fly to the same destinations (BRU, CDG and GVA) because of the fact that they speak French. And I know there are several, what they call 'native french' flight attendants on one flight.
But I know what you mean with flying with an American carrier. I have flown to the US with Delta, AA and United and I must say I really prefer European carriers.

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BrightCedars
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Re: Brussels Airlines joining Star Alliance in December 2009

Post by BrightCedars »

Interesting reads indeed.

Well, so it seems many of us thought LH will buy the remains of SN in 2011 whereas they seem to only have the option to buy and have some time to weigh the decision. Not saying they wouldn't, but it's important details. Wonder if the fixed price is valid only for the first 2-year period or if it's for the entire duration.

SN to JFK, like I hadn't said it! SN will (most probably) codeshare with CO to EWR, UA to IAD and ORD (split in due time), US to PHL, AC to YUL and YYZ, and provide BOS and JFK in return. BOS always had good results in BRU, and JFK could be of the late type, allowing all other European alliance members to shift their surplus via the Westernmost alliance hub. I remember reading that Sabena's late JFK departure was good business because many carriers where sending their overbooked or missed connection pax to it. And yes, these two airports are JetBlue hubs and that can only be a coincidence, or...

As far as Asia is concerned, more precisely South East and East Asia, besides China, we can only hope that something will happen soon. Many are hoping for NH on Japan and I think it is a possibility with the congestion problem being reduced at Tokyo and the need to diversify further away from the domestic market, I also would hope for a return of SQ to BRU but would settle for a BKK flight by either TG or SN to offer multiple 1 change connections in the area. Give us both and the region would be nicely served.

Besides I wonder about a Latin American connection. When you see airlines like EK or TK growing so aggressively on GRU, it makes you wonder.

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airlines joining Star Alliance in December 2009

Post by RoMax »

I think GRU must be possible in the future, but not with SN. I thing TAM would make mare sense. They have still some long-haul aircraft on order and they said they would expand their European network in the comming years. So maybe...
I remember me an articele some months ago about Belgian business man that visited Brasil. They want to stimulate the belgian aviation industry and they talked with Embraer. They hope that Embraer will launch some kind of business in Belgium. Embraer said they will investigate this possibilty and they said it would make much chance. But an non-stop service between Brazil and Belgium would make it more possible and Embraer said they will contact some airliners in the comming weeks to speak about a possible flight to Belgium.
So maybe it will come, I hope so. :P

About JFK and BOS again. I still think it would make a lot of sense. Two non-Star Alliance hubs and a hub/focus city of Jetbleu a LH familly member. A non-*A hub can be a disadvantage because of little codeshares with UA, CO, US but Jetbleu can take over this task (like they do for LH) and a advantage of a non-*A hub is that there are no other carriers like CO or UA flying on the route so they don't have to give up some something of theirself (capacity, flights...).

134flyer
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Re: Brussels Airlines joining Star Alliance in December 2009

Post by 134flyer »

Interesting discussion indeed!
MR_Boeing wrote:I think GRU must be possible in the future, but not with SN. I thing TAM would make mare sense. They have still some long-haul aircraft on order and they said they would expand their European network in the comming years. So maybe...
I remember me an articele some months ago about Belgian business man that visited Brasil. They want to stimulate the belgian aviation industry and they talked with Embraer. They hope that Embraer will launch some kind of business in Belgium. Embraer said they will investigate this possibilty and they said it would make much chance. But an non-stop service between Brazil and Belgium would make it more possible and Embraer said they will contact some airliners in the comming weeks to speak about a possible flight to Belgium.
So maybe it will come, I hope so. :P
At the moment TAM operates 2x daily GRU-CDG (with the CDG-GRU legs departing quite close after each other). These flights also feed the domestic AF network, which will most likely change after TAM has joined Star Alliance. It wouldn't surprise me if TAM would move one of the two daily GRU-CDG flights to GRU-BRU instead, which will then feed the SN flights (to France etc) as well.

NCB

Re: Brussels Airlines joining Star Alliance in December 2009

Post by NCB »

Sorry to crush your dreams but SN shouldn't even be considering flying transatlantic until they secure a dominant position in Africa.
With 5 A333's hopping around the place they are hardly dominant and Korongo is nothing but a pee in the Ocean.

TATL out of BRU is served well with Star partners US, CO and UA.
At best, a daily to JFK for the glamour, once they have all of Africa settled.
We're talking 2020, maybe 2025 here if Brussels Airlines still exists at that time.

Forget about BOS, there is simply no potential for Brussels Airlines. In the times of Sabena, Sabena was one of few airlines flying transatlantic to BOS, now almost everyone does. It seems that premium was selling well and DAT was willing to keep BOS, JFK and Africa under SNBA but fortunately enough, they were not that stupid.

Link to a 2001 discussion.
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forum ... in/633982/

HighInTheSky
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Re: Brussels Airlines joining Star Alliance in December 2009

Post by HighInTheSky »

NCB wrote:Sorry to crush your dreams...
Didn't expect anything else from you :roll: And dreams? Let's wait and see....

Nobody is expecting all of these changes in 2010, and I for one don't even expect TATL flights in 2011... But 2020? Come on NCB! In 2020 we'll be flying a fleet of A319's to AFI!

NCB, I don't really get your mentality... Sometimes you are too positive about something and you smash your way thru everybody's comments (see A319 OPS into AFI), and on the other hand you are so bloody negative! If I would have to search on this forum all negative posts by you, I would be busy for a while...

brusselsairlinesfan
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Re: Brussels Airlines joining Star Alliance in December 2009

Post by brusselsairlinesfan »

Even if I am dreaming for SN transatlantic flights ASAP, I wish them to grow slowly but surely... one never knows in such a fast moving world...
Anyway, I would like to wish brussels airlines & devoted staff all the best for 2010!
"Love" to Belgium - my favorite foreign country - and to its home airline!
Vincent / Paris (F)

flywithUs
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Re: Brussels Airlines joining Star Alliance in December 2009

Post by flywithUs »

Hello everyone, just an answer:

I'm not an NCB-clone but if it's too risky to fly an A330 to BOS/JFK, would it be possible to make this with an A319? like LCY-JFK on A318 with BA

NCB

Re: Brussels Airlines joining Star Alliance in December 2009

Post by NCB »

Unlike Africa, TATL A319 requires ETOPS fuel and with winds westbound, it's not possible unless they ask Airbus to build a modified A319, better even, sharkletted A320 with CFM56-5B3 (A321 engines) and some auxiliary tanks.

If there's a market for at least 100 of them over the next 15 years, Airbus might consider the STC.

Many U.S. airlines would buy it as a B757-200 replacement over the Atlantic, especially in these times where they are fighting surplus capacity.

It could also be the ideal aircraft for SN to use to Africa, if they deem 75 tons MTOW A319 too risky.

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BrightCedars
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Re: Brussels Airlines joining Star Alliance in December 2009

Post by BrightCedars »

According to another topic SN is in the process of acquiring an ex-Privatair A319LR.

Maybe the aircraft would not be de-rated and could be used on one of the shortest TATL routes that would BRU-BOS be. Especially if business contracts are the main target, it wouldn't be an issue to have it flying with maybe just about 100 seats.

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cathay belgium
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Re: Brussels Airlines joining Star Alliance in December 2009

Post by cathay belgium »

Hi,

Just thinking,if BOS could be such an opportunity why not lease a / some older cheap B757
to fill this gap and make some money instead of waiting for a specific A319.
I know it will be the black duck in the fleet but just for the moment they could do their job.
If buying /leasing 2/3 of them some better filled capacities could join the 757 operations.
Thinking of Beyreuth on previous topics,JFK,...

Why just wait for the airbus series that will come in years..
Act now.. and gain some money-making routes / advertisement /prestige !

Told this story before in order of A300/..

Why wouldn't could work this out well for SN as it already been done by a lot of others AA-UA-delta...Icelandair.

Off course I'm talking about TA-USA flights and forget AFI because the lack of the needed cargo-capacaty!
Is the 757 so much more fuel-burning that SN couldn't gain some profit of using some older planes!
Or is it just mama LH that don't wont some Boeings into the fleet :( !

CX-B

CX-B
New types flown 2024 : DO228, A338 , PC6

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