How much did SN pay for the 4 slots to LHR?

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tolipanebas
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How much did SN pay for the 4 slots to LHR?

Post by tolipanebas »

Found these interesting news facts concerning bmi and their recent slot sale at LHR.

1- bmi admits it has sold an unspecified pair of slots at LHR recently to raise around £2190 million of cash in order to get through the winter.

2- A Star airline CEO who requested anonimity told ATWonline that all recent bmi slot sales were conducted with Lufthansa Group airlines and Star members.

3- bmi is said to have sold six pairs of takeoff and landing slots to Swiss International Air Lines for around £60 million

4 - SN has taken over 4 pairs of slots... :roll:

http://atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=18767

I am having a hard time believing SN paid close to £40m (€50M) for those 4 slot pairs, but then apparently they haven't gotten them for free, so even if they got a good discount (-50%), the price is increadibly high for an airline like SN, so the question is, how did they pay for it? Or did LH provide SN a loan?

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RoMax
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Re: How much did SN pay for the 4 slots to LHR?

Post by RoMax »

I suppose it was a gift of LH that they will pay back later!? :? I hope that is gonne this way, otherwise... :shock:

HighInTheSky
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Re: How much did SN pay for the 4 slots to LHR?

Post by HighInTheSky »

Maybe LH will deduct the costs in 2011 when they buy the rest of SN? I don't think that we will ever know everything about this slot story ;)

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euroflyer
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Re: How much did SN pay for the 4 slots to LHR?

Post by euroflyer »

I think everybody should get used to those kind of transactions. For LH, once they own SN fully (and of course bmi, LX, OS, ...), at the end of the day only the overall result of ALL airlines is important. So if for any reasons (could be tax regulations, could be anything else) some kind of transaction between one daughter airline and another increases the overall result, such transactions will take place. This could be one of them. Maybe SWISS (less likely SN so :? ) is 'happy' to pay some GBP for slots in order to avoid a 'too' big positive result (which would mean high tax burden in Switzerland) and at the same time bmi urgently needs some cash to avoid high credit costs or anything else. So such kind of transactions could be a perfect win-win situation for everybody involved and for LH as well.
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b-west

Re: How much did SN pay for the 4 slots to LHR?

Post by b-west »

With the current exchange rate, £40 is more like €44 ;) Not that I'm saying that it's not a lot of money...

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Re: How much did SN pay for the 4 slots to LHR?

Post by Gliderpilot »

tolipanebas wrote: 1- bmi admits it has sold an unspecified pair of slots at LHR recently to raise around £2190 million of cash in order to get through the winter.
It is £190 million, I already thought £2190m would be way too much to 'get through the winter'. ;)

In the beginning of 2008, just before Open Skies were 'open', slots at LHR were changing hands for £5m-ish. Now with the GFC going on, I doubt the value of the slots has doubled.

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tolipanebas
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Re: How much did SN pay for the 4 slots to LHR?

Post by tolipanebas »

Indeed, my mistake, bmi needed to raise £190m.

Half of that sum is known to have come from LH in the form of a loan and LH has said bmi had to secure the other half itself through selling off assets (i.e. slots).

bmi now said it had secured the required funding, meaning it has raised £95M through the sale of an unspecified number of slots, reportedly to LH Group airlines and STAR airlines.

We know bmi have traded 6 slots with LX (to allow them to start up a 6 times daily LHR-GVA route) and SN has also taken over 4 slots. As a consequence, bmi have pulled out of BRU (6 times daily) and AMS (4 times daily) and bmi has also announced it is discontinuing its twice daily TLV flights and its daily KBP flight, meaining another 3 pairs of slots were freed and sold to a so far undisclosed STAR airline.

In all, it means at least 13 pairs of slots have been traded and have generated £95m, or about £7m each, provided we do not take into account any price difference depending time througout the day (which in the case of SN is a bonus, as they are having prime time slots only!)

Has SN indeed forked out some £28m or €32m to gain access to LHR? :o

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Re: How much did SN pay for the 4 slots to LHR?

Post by euroflyer »

tolipanebas wrote: Has SN indeed forked out some £28m or €32m to gain access to LHR? :o
Well, I guess SN is not forking out anything anymore :? LH has shifted some money from one pocket into another pocket ...
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tolipanebas
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Re: How much did SN pay for the 4 slots to LHR?

Post by tolipanebas »

euroflyer wrote:
tolipanebas wrote: Has SN indeed forked out some £28m or €32m to gain access to LHR? :o
Well, I guess SN is not forking out anything anymore :? LH has shifted some money from one pocket into another pocket ...
Let's not be naive here too, shall we?

The point is bmi needed to be refinancied urgently, yet LH was not jumping from joy to do so, so they've clearly decided to 'spread the risk'.

iso forking out £190m and lend it to bmi, they've only provided a loan for half of that, and asked other airlines of its group to do a contribution too (in return for slots). LX took over 6 slots and paid cash for themand we know SN too took over 4 slots. It would be naive to believe SN has just been given these slots for free or to think LH has taken charge of the payment without guarantee whatsoever. In that case they could have just as well given bmi the money up front!

Reality is that either SN put a lot of money on the table itself (they do have reserves, but so far were very extremely reluctant to use them, although with the addition of a 5th A330 and the project in RDC, they appear to have changed strategy, maybe the purchase of LHR slots is part of that?), OR LH has given a loan to SN to pay bmi for the slots, thus spreading the financial risk and exposure for the Germans in case of bankruptcy of bmi.

And then there's the issue of who bought the other 3 pairs of slots at LHR?

As you've said: we're not going to find out soon how all this was played, but all signs are there for SN having paid some very serious money for those slots: the only question remaining is where do these tens of millions of euro come from? If it comes from LH, then there's likely some kind of mechanism in place which provides them with some kind of financial guarantee, because they currently own only 45% of SN, so they aren't just going to 'give' away things for free....

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Re: How much did SN pay for the 4 slots to LHR?

Post by 737flyer »

Considering the fact that the value of these slots will only go up, they could well have lent the money... Should be relatively easy to get a loan for this kind of transaction...
A wise investment anyhow.

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Re: How much did SN pay for the 4 slots to LHR?

Post by euroflyer »

tolipanebas wrote:
euroflyer wrote:
tolipanebas wrote: Has SN indeed forked out some £28m or €32m to gain access to LHR? :o
Well, I guess SN is not forking out anything anymore :? LH has shifted some money from one pocket into another pocket ...
Let's not be naive here too, shall we?
This has nothing to do with being naive, tolipanebas. It is just that from the point of view of the LH CEO and his team, there is not really the possibility of SN or LX or bmi paying for anything. It is always LH paying as LH own everything at the end of the day! (OK, I do ignore they only own 45% of SN at the moment, but I do guess that is seen by everybody at least at LH as a rather technical, temporary point which is only due to the fact that the traffic rights first need to be sorted). This is all one LH Group. So any internal transactions like those slots being sold by bmi to LX and SN happens in order to increase the overall result of the LH Group and, indeed, to manage and spread risks within the LH Group. If this means temporary problems or losses in one group airline, nobody at LH HQ will care as long as the overall result is being increased (the problems for the management of that specific group airline and its employees do of course start exactly here, as they at the same time have to show within the group that they are competitive, but that is the price which has to be paid, if a company is not independent anymore but part of a bigger structure ...) I guess it was here the 'cheapest' option to refinance bmi to shift some money from other parts of the LH Group (some as a loan from LH, some as 'payment' for slots from LX or SN, etcetera) to bmi. Obviously in the eyes of the financial guys at the LH HQ this is the best solution and cheaper than taking on additional external loans by bmi or any other solution.
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tolipanebas
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Re: How much did SN pay for the 4 slots to LHR?

Post by tolipanebas »

Don't get me wrong here:

I am not saying you're naive and I think I have a fairly good understanding as to how this group of airlines is run (as you've been able to see from my posts on SN related topics), it's just that I am pissed with the total lack of communication and transparancy from SN the past few weeks on several projects: LHR slot transfer, bmi wetleases, LGW closure, Congo plans etc...

The idea they now try to give us -staff- is they have been GIVEN these slots for free, whereas from the above, it is quite clear serious money has been paid and not only by LH. I'd love to know how much SN has paid and how this fits in with the long term cautious approach to spending our reserves....

Looks to me SN has embarked on a serious investment project (see the enumeration of issues above), so maybe some communication on the matter would be welcome? Or is the aim to keep staff in the dark, so we won't start asking for things too? :roll:

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Re: How much did SN pay for the 4 slots to LHR?

Post by 737flyer »

tolipanebas wrote: Looks to me SN has embarked on a serious investment project (see the enumeration of issues above), so maybe some communication on the matter would be welcome? Or is the aim to keep staff in the dark, so we won't start asking for things too? :roll:
As always first communication to 'shareholders' how good things are going... Then one to staff that they have to cut costs & staff should do an effort as well...

So you are pretty spot on :)

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Re: How much did SN pay for the 4 slots to LHR?

Post by airtrotter »

what about the slots at LGW? They can sell those now, can't they?
and the ones at NCL and BRS? who has to pay for these (extra) slots, BD or SN?

anyone an idea?
grz

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Re: How much did SN pay for the 4 slots to LHR?

Post by sn26567 »

airtrotter wrote:what about the slots at LGW? They can sell those now, can't they?
and the ones at NCL and BRS? who has to pay for these (extra) slots, BD or SN?
Slots at LHR are probably the most expensive in the world, due to their scarcity. They will sell way above slots at LGW, let alone slots at NCL or BRS.

SN should pay for the slots at NCL and BRS: the flights are in their name, even if they are operated on a wet lease basis by BD. But SN can probably get these slots for free: the airports are not overcrowded.
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Re: How much did SN pay for the 4 slots to LHR?

Post by Prevangor »

NCL and BRS are not at capacity limit and everyone can get slots free of charge. LGW has some free slots at certain times.

http://www.acl-uk.org/reportsStatistics.aspx?id=98

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Re: How much did SN pay for the 4 slots to LHR?

Post by airtrotter »

ok, I thought airlines always had to pay for slots, no matter how slot-restricted or not...
thanks for the clarification :)

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