future of BMI, SN to Heathrow

[airtrotter]

As I've explained above, unless there's another swap not known yet, SN is actually down a couple of flights, and even more so if we look at the total flight hours

I think it will stay equal

LHR: + 4
LGW: no change (my believe)
BRS: - 2
NCL: -1

so maybe indeed LGW will be down one, or there will be more reshuffling BRU - UK. Of course, this doesn't represent actual flight hours, got no idea about that.

[sdbelgium]

I have indeed bothered to ask for extra routes, if I may say so. If don't get an answer to that question, then I can't write anything about it. I'm sorry too, but there is no communication whatsoever about other routes, especially the LGW one. I am as curious as everyone else here on this board.

If they announce the cancellation of LGW I will offer you an apology, but for now we still win 1 flight, not lose.

Maybe we should all calm down a bit and wait until things are all loaded and definitive instead of guessing and speculating around here...

'Neen, deze wetlease heeft geen gevolgen voor SN, want er zal meer gevlogen worden... door anderen?'

Nee, door SN naar LHR en wie weet nog naar andere bestemmingen...

[RoMax]

One thing is sure if LGW stays there will be more SN flights to the UK and a lot more SN seats. If LGW will be dropped there is still the same (even a bit more or a bit less) amount of SN seats to the UK only to other destinations.

But Tolipanebas, you asked for routes that I was thinking about and my answer was the thing below, but I am waiting for an answer of you.

I have really no idea about the market between the UK and Brussels and connecting to the rest of Europe but there are seven destinations that are operated by KLM in the UK that aren't operated to BRU. I will give you them and you give your ideas. I think some of them will really don't work for SN but I give them all.
-Aberdeen
-Cardiff
-Glasgow
-Hull
-Liverpool
-Norwich
-Teesside

[tolipanebas]

I have indeed bothered to ask for extra routes, if I may say so. If don't get an answer to that question, then I can't write anything about it. I'm sorry too, but there is no communication whatsoever about other routes, especially the LGW one. I am as curious as everyone else here on this board.

Indeed we are, and I think that in fact we've just uncovered (and spoiled) a big newssplash from SN here.

If they announce the cancellation of LGW I will offer you an apology, but for now we still win 1 flight, not lose.

Oh, there's no need to, as this is nothing against you at all.

Just me interpreting something you've written in a specific way so it would still make sense, whereas in fact it now appears you ment it to mean something differently (although allow me to say, that in that case it doesn't make any sense at all then, since it doesn't prove anything)

Maybe we should all calm down a bit and wait until things are all loaded and definitive instead of guessing and speculating around here...

there's not much guessing to be done really.

SN has just uploaded the new timetables (hence me being able to post the flight times to NCL and BRS) and I see LGW is completely gone. On the other hand, I see BD hasn't updated anything yet, so they don't show the new NCL and BRS flights yet, but they do still show LGW as a twice daily destination.
All that needs to be done is BD update their flights in the systems and then the codeshares will disappear, IMHO....

[sdbelgium]

Indeed we are, and I think that in fact we've just uncovered (and spoiled) a big newssplash from SN here.

It's all the fault of Travel Magazine!

Just me interpreting something you've written in a specific way so it would still make sense, whereas in fact it now appears you ment it to mean something differently (although allow me to say, that in that case it doesn't make any sense at all then, since it doesn't prove anything)

I understand what you're saying, although I ifnd it hard to believe it is that ambiguous. I think the word 'namelijk' is the only one which leaves room for 'discussion' as it might indicate SN will fly more to NCL and BRS as a result of the previous sentence saying crew will be used on other flights. Is this the case?

SN has just uploaded the new timetables (hence me being able to post the flight times to NCL and BRS) and I see LGW is completely gone. On the other hand, I see BD hasn't updated anything yet, so they don't show the new NCL and BRS flights yet, but they do still show LGW as a twice daily destination.

Possible, very well possible actually. But until things are fully updated, I expect it to happen tomorrow (?), we should give them the benefit of the doubt.

[tolipanebas]

Tolipanebas, you asked for routes that I was thinking about and my answer was the thing below, but I am waiting for an answer of you.

I have really no idea about the market between the UK and Brussels and connecting to the rest of Europe but there are seven destinations that are operated by KLM in the UK that aren't operated to BRU. I will give you them and you give your ideas. I think some of them will really don't work for SN but I give them all.
-Aberdeen
-Cardiff
-Glasgow
-Hull
-Liverpool
-Norwich
-Teesside

Your guess is as good as mine really...

I'd say a destination in the South of England would be cool, especially if/when LGW is closed.
And maybe something up North in Scotland too? BD serves Aberdeen already, so who knows....
But those are just my guesses, I have no indication whatsoever for them to be offered anytime soon.

I understand what you're saying, although I ifnd it hard to believe it is that ambiguous. I think the word 'namelijk' is the only one which leaves room for 'discussion' as it might indicate SN will fly more to NCL and BRS as a result of the previous sentence saying crew will be used on other flights. Is this the case?

Well, that's how I've read it, genuinely, otherwise i wouldn't have told you so.
But as said, don't take it personal, it was just me trying to make best sense of all the conflicting information at hands, and I apparently misunderstood you there for a second. No hard feelings, please...

Let's see if tomorrow brings some clarity once BD updates its time table in the booking systems...
or if SN decides to do as it should and communicate up front about their own flights!

[sdbelgium]

Well, that's how I've read it, genuinely, otherwise i wouldn't have told you so.
But as said, don't take it personal, it was just me trying to make best sense of all the conflicting information at hands, and I apparently misunderstood you there for a second. No hard feelings, please...

Yes, I guess everything just got more intense because of the conflicting information coming from everywhere and lack of clear communication. I understand the ambiquity of the sentence, I shall adjust it so there can be no misunderstanding about it anymore. No hard feelings indeed, thanks for your input.

[lumumba]

Hi For my there are 2 flight's more for Brussels Airport?
Besides, have you bothered to ask specification on what other routes he ment then, since:
MINUS 2 BRS
MINUS 1 NCL
MINUS 2 LGW
PLUS 4 LHR
still is 1 down?

Plus 1 flight's to Bristol
plus 2 flight's to Newcastle.
Makes plus 2.
Regards
Patrice

[tolipanebas]

s everything just got more intense because of the conflicting information coming from everywhere and lack of clear communication. I understand the ambiquity of the sentence, I shall adjust it so there can be no misunderstanding about in anymore. No hard feelings indeed, thanks for your input.

I love it when there's a mutual understanding about what binds us together so strongly, as well as a respect for each others imperfections.

i think you've been given ample information for a completely new article though, don't you think?

LHR schedule, NCL schedule, BRS schedule, a clear hint to the LGW termination and a view on the strategy behind it all...

[tolipanebas]

Plus 1 flight's to Bristol
plus 2 flight's to Newcastle.
Makes plus 2.
Regards
Patrice

We were talking about flights OPERATED by SN, not just OFFERED by them....

[airbuske]

Like already said LGW will be discontinued!
Passengers will be rebooked on the BRU LHR flights.

[tolipanebas]

Like already said LGW will be discontinued!
Passengers will be rebooked on the BRU LHR flights.

Indeed.

BD will soon upload the new schedule between Belgium and the UK (just as SN has), and then the 2 daily flights from BRU to LGW which are currently still showing under their BD flightnumbers will disappear.

For SN as an airline, it means they'll win LHR, but loose BRS, LGW and NCL, meaning that overall there will be less flights and less housr flown by SN metal and crews.

No wonder SN isn't very eager to communicate on all this as it's not really something they'll be able to sell easily to their staff: wetleasing planes to operate on our present routes, while sending its own crews on economic unemployment... There's some dynamite in there!

[SmilingBoy]

Well, it is all Lufthansa now, in reality. And I guess the routes that will switch from SN to BD operated are too thin for the Avro 85, so a ERJ 135/145 might be better suited. The opposite for the LHR route: Too much traffic for the BD ERJs, so better let SN operate the route with A319, 737 and Avros.

I expect more optimisations like this between LH, LX, OS, SN and BD within the next year or so.

[NCB]

so better let SN operate the route with A319, 737 and Avros.

Indeed, except that it will be a BD A319 in Star C/S.
(LH is screwing SN!! 3 more acft on wetlease from BD, 1 SN B734 returned to lessor and the BAe146's remain on the ground!! Yeah yeah, SN is more important than BD Go tell that to the unions... )

[cnc]

why are they going to leave LGW? i can't really see the big strategy behind it.
pax landing in LGW for BRU will now be forced to travell to LHR first with the risk of missing their flight unless BD is going to perform these. still it makes no sense to me why they would drop it

[HighInTheSky]

so better let SN operate the route with A319, 737 and Avros.

Indeed, except that it will be a BD A319 in Star C/S.
(LH is screwing SN!! 3 more acft on wetlease from BD, 1 SN B734 returned to lessor and the BAe146's remain on the ground!! Yeah yeah, SN is more important than BD Go tell that to the unions... )

No NCB, it will not be a BMI A319. Don't say things when you don't know the facts!
It will be a Belgian A319, OO registered, indeed in *A livery. And I shall give a little hint, it will be an a/c that already flew under OO registration based in Brussels

Now, guess all you want, but these are the facts...

[HighInTheSky]

why are they going to leave LGW? i can't really see the big strategy behind it.
pax landing in LGW for BRU will now be forced to travell to LHR first with the risk of missing their flight unless BD is going to perform these. still it makes no sense to me why they would drop it

How many pax are arriving in LGW on a flight that isn't available out of LHR? Not much...

[tolipanebas]

why are they going to leave LGW? i can't really see the big strategy behind it.
pax landing in LGW for BRU will now be forced to travell to LHR first with the risk of missing their flight unless BD is going to perform these. still it makes no sense to me why they would drop it

Because LGW has become largely irrelevant for SN, being a STAR alliance airline really.

They can serve the LON market equally well from LHR as they do from LGW, I'd dare to say better even and on top of that, all of the LH group of airlines and most of their STAR partner airlines are at LHR, meaining they can thus immediately move in under one roof there soon, benefiting from their lounges, the check in facilities and the ground handling contracts of LH, so why on earth would they prefer to serve another airport in London???

To pick up a handful of pax who might have flown with an unbound airline to LGW?
Well, too bad for them, but STAR alliance airlines generally don't have pax of other alliances (nor unbound airlines) in mind when they take network decisions like these....

Besides, don't overestimate the LGW market: loads per flight on average rarely top 35 pax at SN, of which most are actually connecting at BRU to one of the more exotic SN destinations (and they will thus simply move to LHR with them), so it makes sense to stop serving LGW as they take over LHR.

Let's do the math
(give or take a few pax, but just to make a point and have a clear idea of what numbers we're talking):
BD operates 6 flights to LHR on E-jets, with loadfactors around 60% or slightly more, so that's 6 x 25 pax
SN operates 2 flights to LGW with around 35 pax, so that's 70 pax
making a total of 220 pax per day, soon to be split out over 4 LHR flights a day, or around 55 pax / flight
Add some extra pax thanks to new STAR codeshares and SN can count on 60 pax per flight to LHR on average, (or let's say 80 in the morning when the flight is operated on A319, and 40 in the evening on an RJ): just what is needed to make sense, yet you just can't make the figures work when you keep LGW in there!

'

Indeed, except that it will be a BD A319 in Star C/S.

Do you actually ever read what people write here?
There's NOT going to be a BD A319 wetlease!
the additional A319 is going to be leased and operated by SN...
Stop assuming things to be like you've thought them up for yourself, and try to grasp what others are telling you as facts, because otherwise this discussion will continue well above your heard, so it seems....

[EICAS]

Brussels Airlines increases frequencies to Bristol and Newcastle
Also new launch of own-operated aircraft to London Heathrow as from 10 January

Brussels / London, 11th December 2009 – Brussels Airlines is optimising its flight offer between Belguim and the UK with an increase in frequencies to and from Bristol and Newcastle. From 10 January 2010, the airline will offer 3 daily flights to these regional UK airports, as oppised to the twice and once-daily frequencies on offer today. London Heathrow will also benefit from four daily flights operated on Brussels Airlines aircraft.

This increase in flights from between Brussels and Bristol is a response to market demand. In effect, with weekday flights in the morning, the middle of the day and in the evening, passengers flying for business can now spend a full day on site, and the new schedules also give excellent onward connections to a large number of destinations on our European and African networks.

Flights to Bristol and Newcastle will be operated on Embraer Regional Jets, supplied by bmi. A co-member of Star Alliance, bmi is a part of the Lufthansa Group, which is a strategic partner of Brussels Airlines.

Brussels-Bristol timetable from 10 JAN 2010 (local time)

Code: Select all

SN2055  BRU 0935  BRS 0945  123456-  SN2060  BRS 0630  BRU 0845  123456-
SN2053  BRU 1555  BRS 1605  12345--  SN2056  BRS 1210  BRU 1425  12345--
SN2057  BRU 1935  BRS 1950  12345-7  SN2058  BRS 1635  BRU 1850  12345-7

Brussels-Newcastle timetable from 10 JAN 2010 (local time)

Code: Select all

SN2187  BRU 0935  NCL 1005  123456-  SN2194  NCL 0625  BRU 0845  123456-
SN2189  BRU 1530  NCL 1600  12345--  SN2188  NCL 1205  BRU 1425  12345--
SN2193  BRU 2000  NCL 2030  12345-7  SN2190  NCL 1630  BRU 1850  12345-7

London Heathrow
From 10 January, Brussels Airlines will also operate 4 daily flights between London Heathrowand the captial of Europe. Following the cessation on 9 January of the bmi service on this route, Brussels Airlines will replace this service with a full programme of flights. In line with this strategic decision, the airline will terminate its reduced service between London Gatwick and Brussels. ‘In offering a service to and from London Heathrow, we can give our passengers a better service, as well as better connections to our Star Alliance partner networks flying our of Heathrow.’ Explains Erik Follet, Executive Vice President Network at Brussels Airlines.

Brussels Airlines will offer 4 daily flights between LHR and BRU from 10 January – two morning and two evening flights. These flights will be scheduled for excellent connections to Brussels Airlines European and African networks via Brussels, with a mimimum transit time previewed. Flights will be operated on Brussels Airlines’ Boeing 737, Airbus 319 and AVRO RJ.

Brussels-London Heathrow timetable (local time)

Code: Select all

SN2091  BRU 0730  LHR 0740  12345--  SN2104  LHR 0650  BRU 0900  1234567
SN2093  BRU 0950  LHR 1000  12345--  SN2092  LHR 0830  BRU 1040  12345--
SN2093  BRU 0955  LHR 1005  -----67  SN2094  LHR 1050  BRU 1300  1-3-567
SN2101  BRU 1915  LHR 1925  12345-7  SN2094  LHR 1115  BRU 1325  -2-4---
SN2103  BRU 2125  LHR 2135  12345--  SN2102  LHR 2015  BRU 2225  12345-7
SN2103  BRU 2110  LHR 2120  -----67

Brussels Airlines now offers flights to and from 8 destinations in the UK. With 27 flights per day on weekdays the company has the best connections between the capital of Europe and the UK.

Brussels Airlines press release 11 December 2009

[Conti764]

Do you actually ever read what people write here?
There's NOT going to be a BD A319 wetlease!
the additional A319 is going to be leased and operated by SN...
Stop assuming things to be like you've thought them up for yourself, and try to grasp what others are telling you as facts, because otherwise this discussion will continue well above your heard, so it seems....

The A319 is going to replace one 737. I assume the leasing rate of an A319 is higher then that of a low cost configured 737. I assume (again ) that the economics of an A319 are better then that of an old 737, but then again, the leasing rate is higher and an A319 has fewer seats (10 less then a 733 and 32 less then a 734) so is SN going to raise the rates on the flights the A319 is going to operate or are the better economics enough to cater for the lesser capacity and higher leasing rates?