future of BMI, SN to Heathrow

[cnc]

they better keep the morning LGW flights!

[RoMax]

They are loaded as BMI flights in amadeus, but with the note "operated by Brussels Airlines" and the operating aircrafts are also SN types.

[tolipanebas]

They are loaded as BMI flights in amadeus, but with the note "operated by Brussels Airlines" and the operating aircrafts are also SN types.

Can it not be the flights to LGW have been pulled by SN, but BD simply hasn't removed their codeshares yet and as such they are still showing?

Otherwise this whole thing is incredibly weird, with 2 airlines first swapping slots and even routes only to operate each other's new flights while codesharing on those flights as they are in fact more important to the codesharing/operator of the flight, than to the new owner of the flight...

Given the complexity and the messy character of it all, it could very well be true indeed: definitely something worthy of SN!

[NCB]

Besides, long term outsourcing through wetleases????
Hmmm, did somebody from management actually check if they haven't signed an agreement with the pilot unions on that issue some time ago? Not to mention that it is a bit weird for a company which is sending crews on temporary unemployment. Let me say the last word hasn't been said about this, which is probably also why he doesn't know too well how to communicate on it....

Yeah that's what I've been wondering recently.
SN have their own aircraft and crew waiting on the ground and yet they're increasing capacity with wetleased A319 and ERJ's... What a waste. Is the BD A319 going to be a full time wetlease or is it going to be more a charter-like agreement for the morning flights only?

[RoMax]

They aren't going to wetlease a BD A319. The LHR flights will be fully operated by SN, SN crews, SN planes, SN everything. They are going to use most of the time (like it is now loaded in amadeus) RJ85's for the weekend flights and 1/2 of the 4 weekday flights and two times a day a A319 or B737.
The wetlease is only for Bristol and Newcastle, so only two ERJ's and not a A319!

[tolipanebas]

Besides, long term outsourcing through wetleases????
Hmmm, did somebody from management actually check if they haven't signed an agreement with the pilot unions on that issue some time ago? Not to mention that it is a bit weird for a company which is sending crews on temporary unemployment. Let me say the last word hasn't been said about this, which is probably also why he doesn't know too well how to communicate on it....

Yeah that's what I've been wondering recently.
SN have their own aircraft and crew waiting on the ground and yet they're increasing capacity with wetleased A319 and ERJ's... What a waste. Is the BD A319 going to be a full time wetlease or is it going to be more a charter-like agreement for the morning flights only?

There's no A319 wetleased from BD, we're talking E-jets here...

Please read carefully, and check sources first: Not everybody posting here knows what he's talking about. Most here just talk from their back, but as demonstrated, some have pretty good sources, much to the dispair of SN, if I may say so....

[tolipanebas]

Time table for BRISTOL just got out:

BRS-BRU 0630-0845 * ER4
BRS-BRU 1205-1425 * ER4
BRS-BRU 1640-1850 * ER4

BRU-BRS 0935-0945 * ER4
BRU-BRS 1555-1605 * ER4
BRU-BRS 1935-1950 * ER4

So at least to BRS, there will be no more SN operated flights there and BD takes over EVERYTHING, contrary to what Sciot told you sdsystem.

SN, start communicating please!
This is getting ridiculous, we at Luchtzak.be are about to publish your entire network re-shuffle and new timetable between Belgium and the UK before you even confirm there's something changing indeed!

corrected for spelling errors...

[sn26567]

In this context, one would start to wonder about EDI and GLA; will those be the only 'real BD' routes left at BRU, or is there something changing too there, which they haven't told yet?

And what about East Midlands and Leeds-Bradford? They too are exclusively bmi.

[tolipanebas]

the new NEWCASTE schedule as from JAN 10

NCL-BRU 0625-0845 * ER4
NCL-BRU 1205-1425 * ER4
NCL-BRU 1805-1850 * ER4

BRU-NCL 0935-1005 * ER4
BRU-NCL 1530-1600 * ER4
BRU-NCL 2000-2030 * ER4

Who needs SN communication's department when you have BD doing all the work for you, right?

[airtrotter]

I'm still curious as to the LGW flights. When BD and SN are just swapping flights (LHR for BRS + NCL), it's possible that SN keeps its LGW flights.
Anyway, just some more speculation

[RoMax]

I really doubt that SN will drop the LGW service, maybe only two RJ85's instead of the morning flight operated by an RJ100 to B737. LGW is still another market than LHR, so why would they drop it. I really don't like it if they drop the LGW service.

[tolipanebas]

In this context, one would start to wonder about EDI and GLA; will those be the only 'real BD' routes left at BRU, or is there something changing too there, which they haven't told yet?

And what about East Midlands and Leeds-Bradford? They too are exclusively bmi.

Correct, I completely forgot about those...

So far, nothing seems to have changed on those routes and I haven't heard anything from inside BD either, so it looks like nothing is changing for what concerns those routes.

My best guess is the "grand plan" behind all this is to connect all of the UK's destinations of SN (i.e. BRS, LON, BHX, MAN, LBA, NCL, EDI and GLA) several times a day with BRU and to offer full STAR network connectivity through BRU.

Makes sense, given the fact LH/LX are so far having a serious distance and thus flighttime handicap to compete against AF/KL for all connecting pax between the regional UK airports and Spain, Portugal, France or Scandinavia. BRU is ideally positioned to take up that task and it looks like STAR alliance wants to start the battle with Skyteam right away. KL is NOT going to like this idea, because due to the eyepopping absence of BA at the regional airports, they currently take out a lot of medium haul connecting pax at the secondary UK airports and so does AF.

[RoMax]

Is there a possebility that SN or BD will start new routes between the UK and Brussels in the comming year? So 2010/2011? KLM has verry much daily flights to the UK like you said, so if SN will compete really hard, why don't start some new routes. Or am I to excited now?!

btw: A month ago (or somthing like that) SN promoted their AFI network in paris together with LH and LX, than they told they will operate by themself two daily flights to CDG from next summer season. Is there already an shedule for this? And what about AMS, I think a lot of Star carriers would like it when SN will fly to AMS.

[sdbelgium]

So at least to BRS, there will be no more SN operated flights there and BD takes over EVERYTHING, contrary to what Sciot told you sdsystem.

Did I say that? I said "He confirmed the LHR flights as well as the BMI wet lease agreement. On board product will be SN three class, crew is BMI." I didn't say SN would operate any flights.

[tolipanebas]

Is there a possebility that SN or BD will start new routes between the UK and Brussels in the comming year? So 2010/2011? KLM has verry much daily flights to the UK like you said, so if SN will compete really hard, why don't start some new routes. Or am I to excited now?!

Since it seems we've taken over from SN's managers here (BTW, just joking and making fun of lack of clearcut communication from SN on this issue), any suggestions are always welcome...

What UK destination(s) were you thinking about?

[RoMax]

Is there a possebility that SN or BD will start new routes between the UK and Brussels in the comming year? So 2010/2011? KLM has verry much daily flights to the UK like you said, so if SN will compete really hard, why don't start some new routes. Or am I to excited now?!

Since it seems we've taken over from SN's managers here (BTW, just joking and making fun of lack of clearcut communication from SN on this issue), any suggestions are always welcome...

What UK destination(s) were you thinking about?

I have really no idea about the market between the UK and Brussels and connecting to the rest of Europe but there are seven destinations that are operated by KLM in the UK that aren't operated to BRU. I will give you them and you give your ideas. I think some of them will really don't work for SN but I give them all.
-Aberdeen
-Cardiff
-Glasgow
-Hull
-Liverpool
-Norwich
-Teesside

[tolipanebas]

So at least to BRS, there will be no more SN operated flights there and BD takes over EVERYTHING, contrary to what Sciot told you sdsystem.

Did I say that? I said "He confirmed the LHR flights as well as the BMI wet lease agreement. On board product will be SN three class, crew is BMI." I didn't say SN would operate any flights.

"Het is correct dat bmi vluchten in onderaanneming voor Brussels Airlines gaat uitvoeren via een wetlease contract," zo werd ons bevestigd door Geert Sciot van Brussels Airlines.

Dit heeft geen invloed op het gebruik van de SN-vloot, noch op het personeelsbestand [...].

...er zal namelijk meer gevlogen worden naar Newcastle en Bristol.

Than it sounds to me as if you're telling me the BD flights will come ON TOP of the current schedule as operated by SN, which doesn't seem like it's the case.

As I've explained above, unless there's another swap not known yet, SN is actually down a couple of flights, and even more so if we look at the total flight hours, so it seems like he hasn't been as forthcoming with you as you think....

We're actually LOOSING overall production here.

[sdbelgium]

Don't pull things out of their context, please.

It clearly states "Dit heeft geen invloed heeft op het gebruik van de SN-vloot, noch op het personeelsbestand, omdat die worden gebruikt op andere routes." and "Er zal namelijk meer gevlogen worden naar Newcastle (die frequentie wordt verhoogd tot 3 dagelijkse vluchten, in tegenstelling tot de huidige laatavondvlucht) en Bristol (dat er dus één frequentie bijkrijgt). Die worden zoals vermeld uitgevoerd met Embraers van bmi."

Er zal meer gevlogen worden naar Newcastle en Bristol, meaning there will be an increase of flights from 2 and 1 respective to 3 dailies each. Not: there will be extra flights on top of the SN operated flights.

For the moment, LGW is still flown, so we are losing 3 daily flights and winning 4 like things stand now... Don't be too fast. Or am I missing some of your inside information now?

[tolipanebas]

Don't pull things out of their context, please.

It clearly states "Dit heeft geen invloed heeft op het gebruik van de SN-vloot, noch op het personeelsbestand, omdat die worden gebruikt op andere routes." and "Er zal namelijk meer gevlogen worden naar Newcastle (die frequentie wordt verhoogd tot 3 dagelijkse vluchten, in tegenstelling tot de huidige laatavondvlucht) en Bristol (dat er dus één frequentie bijkrijgt). Die worden zoals vermeld uitgevoerd met Embraers van bmi."

Er zal meer gevlogen worden naar Newcastle en Bristol, meaning there will be an increase of flights from 2 and 1 respective to 3 dailies each. Not: there will be extra flights on top of the SN operated flights.

I don't think I am pulling things out of their context, I am reading EXACTLY what you wrote. VERBATIM.
I know the subclause did specify SN would fly elsewhere, but still it is ambiguous, given the fact the argument about NCL and BRS actually doesn't make any sense then.
'Neen, deze wetlease heeft geen gevolgen voor SN, want er zal meer gevlogen worden... door anderen?'

Besides, have you bothered to ask specification on what other routes he ment then, since:
MINUS 2 BRS
MINUS 1 NCL
MINUS 2 LGW
PLUS 4 LHR
still is 1 down?

[tolipanebas]

For the moment, LGW is still flown, so we are losing 3 daily flights and winning 4 like things stand now... Don't be too fast. Or am I missing some of your inside information now?

LGW seems to be pulled from all systems by SN; it is only BD which is still showing it as codeshare flight.

Interestingly enough, the booking systems also show BD codeshared SN flights to BRS and NCL, so this suggests to me SN has updated the booking servers, but BD hasn't and LGW is thus wrongfully still shown as a BD flight, operated by SN, whereas in fact it has been pulled too...