2008-2009 Liège Airport (LGG) latest news

[Acid-drop]

indeed, there is a 6.000 tons difference
It's not that much, the end of the year will be interesting

[Acid-drop]

tonnage JAN-OCT : 373.865 tons
(last year at that time : 437.181 tons, so it's a decrease of 14.5%)
Source : http://www.liegeairport.com/liege-airpo ... go_013.htm

OCT '09 (47.643 tons) was better than OCT '08 (44.167 tons).

Again, Looking forward to see what's the result of BRU. I'm sure LGG will finish the year first

[Filou]

Dear Acid-drop,
are you willing to also share the financial details that are directly linked to this cargo growth ?
I mean, would you mind sharing the financial results of "buying" the business as LGG does ?
How many Millions of Euro's will be lost this year if LGG would get no subsidies ????

I would love to do so and hope you don't mind to openly share details of both BRU & LGG (and why not OSTperhaps too, as also a cargo airport?)
And openly discuss revenue, gross profit, subsidies, and finally the net result with and without subsidies...
and let's see how many smiling faces I'll see on the LGG side
Hip hip hoera, the governments spends about 50 %of the revenue to compensate for the hughe losses at LGG.
I wanted to add a smiley, but unfortunately tere's no reason for smiling when we look carefuly at the LGG financial figures.

So why being happy about a ranking if any additional kilo just adds losses ad will nd more subsidies ?????

have a good week-end

[an-148]

dear (not too much) filou

this is an aviation site; if you want to post communautary angriness post it somwhere else, you would make everybody happy

[JOVAN]

Dear Acid-drop,
are you willing to also share the financial details that are directly linked to this cargo growth ?
I mean, would you mind sharing the financial results of "buying" the business as LGG does ?
How many Millions of Euro's will be lost this year if LGG would get no subsidies ????

I would love to do so and hope you don't mind to openly share details of both BRU & LGG (and why not OSTperhaps too, as also a cargo airport?)
And openly discuss revenue, gross profit, subsidies, and finally the net result with and without subsidies...
and let's see how many smiling faces I'll see on the LGG side
Hip hip hoera, the governments spends about 50 %of the revenue to compensate for the hughe losses at LGG.
I wanted to add a smiley, but unfortunately tere's no reason for smiling when we look carefuly at the LGG financial figures.

So why being happy about a ranking if any additional kilo just adds losses ad will nd more subsidies ?????

have a good week-end

Poor Filou,
We should be happy that both Liège and Charleroi are back on the map.
Fortunately, a few politicians (Kubla, André,..) have seen the strategic importance of airports and its effects on employment.
Some other (Walloon) politicians have misused the airport-subsidies for their own goal; let them burn in hell.
The result is a (beginning of a) revival in Wallonia..
Let us be happy about it.

Meanwhile in Flanders (Wat we zelf doen,...) we see Deurne and Oostende , where the time stood still:
Oostende: a few charters and then all the scrap-airlines that cannot fly to other European airports;
Deurne: typical Antwerpian Littleness;
Also here subsidies were given and wasted.

OK, Filou, keep asking about figures, ..

I am happy to see that Aviation and investment is possible in Belgium, be it now mostly in the South.

[Filou]

All,
I love the way reactions goes quickly when you step on some-ones toe.

Jovan is comparing Flanders with OST ad ANR, not mentionning BRU...but why ?

Because there is no comparison possible: a private non-subsidised airport can not compete against a governmental subsidised airport.
Which I fully agree, as the level playing field is totally diferent and can not be compared at all.
So why comparing figures then and trying to compete against each other and willing to be the best, the biggest, etc ?????

In my idea we should for sure not have BRU and LGG competing, this is the basic start idea, we should offer Belgium then as a valid alternative for all possible airlines.And work together.

Now if some others believe they should compete and that we should compete in volume, etc, OK, but let's als compete on the financial results too then.

Easy for me it sound...and then, sorry,but if you want to compete, try to also compete in the final financial results...then only we will be able to compare apples with apples...

[Acid-drop]

I'll give you a few path for reflexion

- LGG and CRL are only at the begining of their lives, nobody expect the financial figures to be positive. The walloon gov will soon get off of the management and the airports will be privatized. The hand of the gov was just there to show the world what nice hidden 2 tools we had.
- Subsidies are like anywhere else. Again, it's used by any kind of government in any kind of country. Open your eyes.
- What may see negative (financial number, subsidies, ...) had created many jobs. That positive feedback is extermely hard to balance. It has transformed 2 potatoes fields into 2 international airports and that's good for the future.

On the other hand, if you want to share some "über secret" info, feel free
I don't have them because i'm interested only in the aviation part.

[flightlover]

LGG mostly made it into top cargo airports because the walloon politicians broke BRU's good name and bought the airlines flying on LGG away from other airports. So not only on the money side BRU is disadvantaged, but also it sees its wings clipped by the many rules imposed by the Brussels gov that prohibit any growth on BRU eg,: no flying out of BRU over brussels for instance

[Acid-drop]

LGG only moved Ethiopian from BRU. All others were from abroad.

Since BRU has to be a quiet airport from a political desicion (from federal and flanders also, just fyi), LGG is helping to keep belgian jobs in belgium. Otherwize, it would probably go in AMS or HHN.

So if I start to get crazy like some of you in the other way around, I could say that waloon subsidies are paying flemish jobs. (these are not my thought, I just made this sentense using your logic)

[JOVAN]

LGG only moved Ethiopian from BRU. All others were from abroad.

Since BRU has to be a quiet airport from a political desicion (from federal and flanders also, just fyi), LGG is helping to keep belgian jobs in belgium. Otherwize, it would probably go in AMS or HHN.

So if I start to get crazy like some of you in the other way around, I could say that waloon subsidies are paying flemish jobs. (these are not my thought, I just made this sentense using your logic)

Indeed, SQ, Asiana, Korean, EVA ,Saudia are all still at BRU, but have seriously reduced activities and frequencies there. AMS took over lot of SQ flights.
If the crisis persists, and it will persist, we will see them re-organizing, meaning cutting more flights
e.g. from BRU.
Can you blame LGG for this ?

BRU lost DHL remember, or half of its volume.
Before that SN was forced into bankrupcy, which never happened before or since with a 'National Carrier'

Can't help, but we Flemish have lately become a people of "kapotmakers"; there are numerous examples of how our great politicians and leaders and managers are destroying wealth.
I am deeply ashamed and apologize to future generations.

My analysis is that Wallonia went thru the same process more or less,30 years ago, but has reached a point where re-building the Economy is again possible.

I agree there should be a common aviation strategy in Belgium, and that all parties would benefit.
However I am afraid we reached already a point of no-return.

[Atlantis]

Indeed, SQ, Asiana, Korean, EVA ,Saudia are all still at BRU, but have seriously reduced activities and frequencies there. AMS took over lot of SQ flights.
If the crisis persists, and it will persist, we will see them re-organizing, meaning cutting more flights
e.g. from BRU.

Do you have any proof that they have, like you said, seriously reduced activities at BRU??

May I remind you that all cargo airports in Europe are suffering and this because Europe has a lot of cargo transport to Asia and the Far East. This is a part of the world that is hit very hard by the economic crisis.
And you can't compare every cargo airport with an other because every airport has it's specific problems: DHL to Leipzig, ET to LGG, bancruptcy of Cargo B.

You always referring to AMS: well these are the facts: El Al cargo moved to LGG, Polar Air moved away, Martinair parked their B742 due to noisy (the same regulations as BRU). Malaysian, Great Wall and Kalitta has reduced their capacity and Jett8 of Singapore has pulled out of AMS.

-> You probably don't know that Cathay Pacific has send several B747F to the desert because of lack in cargo. What has BRU to do with it, right, nothing.
-> You probably don't know that Asiana stopped flying cargo to AMS. They are also going to close their office at AMS. What has BRU to do with is, right, nothing.
-> you probably don't know that Saudi Arabian European hub is Brussels Airport, the ONLY in Europe. They even increased their cargo space by sending more and newer B747F to BRU.

And I can give you more facts based on knowledge.

May I give you a very good and valiable tip? Look at our seaports. They have exact the same market as Brucargo: Asia, Far East, Middle East and South-America. Do you perhaps know what their figures are? I can tell you. If we are looking at the same markets we see the exact figures. If one will increase the other will follow, and this for YEARS.

Please!!

[Acid-drop]

In my idea we should for sure not have BRU and LGG competing, this is the basic start idea, we should offer Belgium then as a valid alternative for all possible airlines.And work together.

I'll take this as a good conclusion. One is a good alternative for the other (esp. when you can use the airport only a few hours a day, with modern airplanes). They are not similar airports, but it does not mean we'll not see some T3F soon in LGG, Liège has still a nice list of adavantages, subsidies appart.

Now please leave this topic for what it's for.
On the other hand, this kind of debate is very interesting, so I guess it would be clever to open a new topic next time we wanna discuss this.

[Filou]

All,
One last remark,which is nothing against LGG but a fact that should be cleared:
Pure cargo as such does not need night operations- with some very small exceptions from time to time- contrary to Integrator business who does no need any daylight.
Full freighter cargo is absolutely and perfectly fitting in daylight operations, such as it does in BRU, FRA, etc.....
And modern aircraft is a logical way, if you know that the B747-8F should be operated in a year as from now, resulting in having much more-400's on the market, reducing the interest in the older -200's that are so fuel consuming, etc.
Believe me, choices in BRU were not made by coincidence. )

[Acid-drop]

Well, I see some -400's in the desert and alot of -200's, dc-10 and md11 flying, so I don't know if the cargo industry is always logic. I guess we'll continue to see some old birds for a while and they need an airport. But yes, I guess you can have a very good life with "only" modern airplanes and day hours. Good for us, we can have 2 big complimentary airports in Beglium.

[RoMax]

Do you really believing that DC-10's, 742F's, MD-11's will stay more in service for cargo than the 744F? If the ask for cargo is rising the oil price is rising to, how do you think cargo airliners will react on this. DC-10's, MD-11's are being replaced by the 777 and the 742F's by 744F's and 748's. . And don't forget the A330F that will come in service soon. Where do you see the market for old planes like a 742 or DC-10? Only for starting cargo airliners and african cargo companies a 742 or something will stay a good option because they are cheap to buy

[erasmus.student]

Hello to everybody! I've recently visit the Liege Airport with my University and we have to do a work about the weak and strong points of the airport. I was just looking on the internet for more information and I've found this very interesting page I have a general idea about LGG now that I've read this forum, but I have some question that are not very clear to me:
- First of all, is the LGG too small to support another great distributor like for example FedEx or DHL? Because I think they are taking a great risk just depending on one important client. Imagine TNT decides to go another airport or they go bankrupt? What happens than with LGG? I think that if LGG loses a big customer, all the other ones will also leave.. What do you think?
- Can support LGG another big company like FedEx for example? (in terms of infrastructure especially).
Is the airport main runway enough for every kind of airplane used by TNT or other ones from DHL or FedEx, or is it too short?
- LGG wants to expand but I think they have a big problem for that because the terrains, as they said, are too expansive, or they don't have too much space.
- The noise regulations are problematic for LGG? Is the same regulations applied in other airports from Europe or worldwide specialized in fright also? Is this a very weak point of the airport, a big cost, compared with other airports?
- I don't understand exactly why the planes can't fly 24h per day.. Is this because of the noise regulations? Is it because LGG is too small?
Ok, this are my doubts. I hope you can help me with some answers. Thank you and hope you don't argue anymore about politics because until now, the forum was very interesting

[Filou]

Dear Student,
I don't think this is the right place to answer all of your questions.It will take very long and many objections/different points of views will make it unclear for you.
If you visited LGG lately, I guess someone presented to you and you can ask the for answers on all of your questions. Commercial people like Mr. Del Marmol and Mr.Geysen of LGG airport should surely be able to help.
Why don't you ask the same questions about LGG to their competitors like BRU and OST for example ?
Mr.Duponselle of BRU airport and Mr.Van Spauwen of OST will both be able to give you another point of view which will be interesting for your conclusions.
You can find contact details of all of them on the internetwebsites.
Good luck !

[erasmus.student]

my work is not a long one, just 2 pages. I don't need too much information, just some answer and opinions in order to have a better idea about the LGG. I don't need the answer to all the questions. Every response to any question is welcome. thanks for your advise!

[Acid-drop]

- First of all, is the LGG too small to support another great distributor like for example FedEx or DHL? Because I think they are taking a great risk just depending on one important client. Imagine TNT decides to go another airport or they go bankrupt? What happens than with LGG? I think that if LGG loses a big customer, all the other ones will also leave.. What do you think?

The problem is not the size of LGG. It could grow, and build more warehouse but the problem with 2 integrators like TNT and let's say Fedex is that they would need full capacity of the airport in the exact same time : between 23h00 and 2h00 for landing and before 3h00 and 6h00 for take off. Because of that, one more track would be needed and that's something extreme that is likely to never happen, esp. because we have a lot of airports in a radius of 500km (but not necessary open during the night).

LGG is in fact trying to attract companies that can run during the day, so they don't interfear with TNT. That's why we see a lot of cargo during the day too now. (TNT is creating less than 50% of LGG trafic, it was almost 100% 10 years ago)

- Can support LGG another big company like FedEx for example? (in terms of infrastructure especially).
Is the airport main runway enough for every kind of airplane used by TNT or other ones from DHL or FedEx, or is it too short?

The main runway is long enough for all kind of plane but they are currently making it even longer (from 3287m to 3700m) to allow any kind of plane with full fuel capacity. Indeed, the weight of the plane vary a lot depending on the fuel weight.

- LGG wants to expand but I think they have a big problem for that because the terrains, as they said, are too expansive, or they don't have too much space.

In fact, LGG has a lot of space to expand. Cargo north is only at the begining of its construction.
Check here : http://www.liegeairport.com/liege-airpo ... oppements/
And if you add the fact that the military will leave the place, LGG will have a lot of cheap land to expand.

- The noise regulations are problematic for LGG? Is the same regulations applied in other airports from Europe or worldwide specialized in fright also? Is this a very weak point of the airport, a big cost, compared with other airports?

LGG has done it differently : the number of house close to the airport, in line with the track was relatively small (not like in brussels where you have a whole city inline). So they (the walloon governement) decided to buy many houses and sound proof others. This will allow night noise and allow future development.

- I don't understand exactly why the planes can't fly 24h per day.. Is this because of the noise regulations? Is it because LGG is too small?

LGG is open 24/7 (with no extra cost) and it's actually one of its main advantage. That's why companies came from Brussels or Amsterdam.


LGG has other advantages :
- no slots, no waiting : companies can land and take off anytime
- veterinary and custom available 24h 7/7
- cheap fuel (because of NATO pipeline I guess)
- Liège : a very good road network without trafic jam, a big workforce, the future high speed train link
- the location in Europe (same as all airport in a radius of 500km, but very different from madrid or milan)

If you want to see the kind of bird there is in LGG, check this
http://www.mst-aviation.nl/portal/modul ... forum&f=73

[Acid-drop]

News : Avient will receive its first MD11 tomorrow in Liège. It'll be used for Asia-Europe relations.
Avient is planning to replace all DC10 by MD11.