5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

[LX-LGX]

Ncb,

Let me remind you of the definition of a high yield Market:

A high yield Market is either a destination where there is low supply and high demand (connecting flights are high supply even though they are not as attractive for high paying passengers),or a Market where there is a high % of business pax, or a Market where ties between the city-pairs is high, or finally a market that has low weight, low volume time sensitive cargo with little competing supply of cargo space towards that destination...

IMHO there is no such thing as a high yield market. There are however high yield routes (city pairs) and there are certain airports or cities which combine more than 1 route which sport high yields. And simply stated: a high yield route is a route that results in a high contribution to the company's margins. Now, let's keep in mind the drivers of margin and you know which elements (in combination or individualy) constitute a high yield route: volume (+), willingness to pay (+), demand for value added services (+), costs (-), etc.

When Sabena was flying to both destinations, FIH has a better yield then JNB.

Today, actual revenue from FIH for Brussels Airlines is more then what they eventually could charge for JNB. Tickets for Kinshasa are more expensive, operating costs are less. And discussions/complaints about free baggage will soon be gone, with Hewa Bora no longer in play (HBA was offering 50 kg for its inbound flights to Africa).

[b720]

This thread is dragging on and on... allow me to interrupt. A319 to africa will not work, unless the cabin is fully dedicated to c class pax.. example the new BA service from lcy to new york.
SN will never be able to compete with AF-KLM Lufthansa, or BA. Sabena tried and failed.. in my opinion SN should concentrate on providing a strong product in Europe, excellent service, improve BRU airport, making it a pleasure to transit in.. improve Africa flights and grow in that market, slowly, and only into high yielding markets. We can not compete with AF, BA LH etc on an over saturated JNB run... this idea of a 319 trans continetal spin.. with 30 min. turnaround in GVA and FCO and a bit more in africa... even ryan air can not achieve that! I still think that SN should upgrade their product, concentrate on become the best airline in europe, and the best product - service while - to africa.

[teddybAIR]

When Sabena was flying to both destinations, FIH has a better yield then JNB.

Today, actual revenue from FIH for Brussels Airlines is more then what they eventually could charge for JNB. Tickets for Kinshasa are more expensive, operating costs are less. And discussions/complaints about free baggage will soon be gone, with Hewa Bora no longer in play (HBA was offering 50 kg for its inbound flights to Africa).

Yes, what is your point?

[LX-LGX]

When Sabena was flying to both destinations, FIH has a better yield then JNB.

Today, actual revenue from FIH for Brussels Airlines is more then what they eventually could charge for JNB. Tickets for Kinshasa are more expensive, operating costs are less. And discussions/complaints about free baggage will soon be gone, with Hewa Bora no longer in play (HBA was offering 50 kg for its inbound flights to Africa).

Yes, what is your point?

Simply : I disagree with your statement "IMHO there is no such thing as a high yield market".

Kinshasa was, is and probably will remain a real high yield market. While Johannesburg is low yield: JNB is only profitable at high load factor.

[Air Key West]

It's quiet obvious I have never been to Africa, LX-LGX ? Actually, I have been travelling on a regular basis (at least once a year) to Africa during the last twenty years. This is why I'm aware of the problem of carrying luggage and cargo (on A320s, but isn't OS carrying any luggage and cargo on their A320s to the Middle East ?). I've seen the efficient airports of JNB and CPT, the very acceptable NBO, the mess at DKR, the corruption at LOS (why don't ou buy a boarding card if you want one), or being held at gunpoint by soldiers on the way to the airport while the car and the luggage were being searched during a coup in Togo, etc... But I've been spared FIH (lucky me).
But, OK, let's forget the A319/A320s. If IFLC has a number of A330s available, why haven't b.air leased one yet ? I don't understand b.air's shyness and slowness in additional investment in a product which is a success. Yes, let's forget the A319/A320s since, according to LX-LGX, there are enough A330s available on the market. Only, b.air doesn't want them obviously.

[teddybAIR]

Kinshasa was, is and probably will remain a real high yield market. While Johannesburg is low yield: JNB is only profitable at high load factor.

You mean Brussels-Kinshasa is a high yield route. I'm sure not all flights from Kinshasa have a high yield factor. That is what I mean with the statement "there is no such thing as a high yield market"

[Vinnie-Winnie]

IMHO there is no such thing as a high yield market. There are however high yield routes (city pairs) and there are certain airports or cities which combine more than 1 route which sport high yields. And simply stated: a high yield route is a route that results in a high contribution to the company's margins. Now, let's keep in mind the drivers of margin and you know which elements (in combination or individualy) constitute a high yield route: volume (+), willingness to pay (+), demand for value added services (+), costs (-), etc.

Sorry but the market to/from Africa is generally high yield. If you really want to nit-pick we can start talking about OD pairs but that is certainly not the point of this discussion.

What makes Africa in my opinion so interesting is that it is generally still a bit messy to do business there. As such SN has 40+ years of experience and that is it strengh.

South-Africa is way too mature for that. In a sense because you seem to like your economical terms teddybair SN is responding to a market failure and is doign quite well at it.

[teddybAIR]

What makes Africa in my opinion so interesting is that it is generally still a bit messy to do business there. As such SN has 40+ years of experience and that is it strengh.

That has always intrigued me: how much of a competitive edge is SN's african track record? Is it that different to operate in Africa compared to anywhere else? It probably is and these questions are probably illustrative for my limited comprehension of the challenges in Africa. Therefore, I would very much appreciate if you could enlighten me on the business paradigms, which SN seems to master so well, compared to competition.

Regards,
bAIR

[Vinnie-Winnie]

That has always intrigued me: how much of a competitive edge is SN's african track record? Is it that different to operate in Africa compared to anywhere else? It probably is and these questions are probably illustrative for my limited comprehension of the challenges in Africa. Therefore, I would very much appreciate if you could enlighten me on the business paradigms, which SN seems to master so well, compared to competition.

I admit I don't know much about African markets and probably base my analysis on hearsay and current market provision.

Best example is probably Nairobi (NBO). How can an airline such as SN still serve this destination 3 times a week when 1) Historical Ties between kenya and Belgium are relatively weak 2) competition very strong (BA, AF, KL...) 3) quite weak frequency compared to competitors + not even direct flight

My thinking goes that there is certainly something else at play there. Not sure what and will not pretend to know as it is not my area of expertise. I'm much more knowledgeable in passenger behaviour theory & market analysis as i studied this + now work in the field although not in the airline industry.

[jan_olieslagers]

discussions/complaints about free baggage will soon be gone, with Hewa Bora no longer in play

Are Hewa-Bora discontinueing their Kinshasa-Brussels-Paris operation? What have I missed?

[sn26567]

Sao Tome refuses to further allow Hewa Bora to fly its B767 under its register. Hewa Bora has no other immediate solution than to stop flying the route and to complain about the pressures of the Belgian Government and Brussels Airlines on Sao Tome.

[Conti764]

discussions/complaints about free baggage will soon be gone, with Hewa Bora no longer in play

Are Hewa-Bora discontinueing their Kinshasa-Brussels-Paris operation? What have I missed?

Yep...

Sao Tomé and Principe withdrew the license of EJS, the company that gave Hewa Bora the cover to fly to Europe on their own 762...

Hewa Bora now blames Belgium, the EU and Brussels Airlines to have put pressure on Sao Tomé to withdraw their license, so it now calls upon the Congolese government do counteract.

[NCB]

Now we'll see who has the deepest pockets to crook the RDC government... SN or HWB?
If SN pays more, they get 14 x weekly, if HBW pays more, SN would be pulled out of RDC.
Interesting battle.
Papaioanou has a point, Sao Tome have no business pulling their aircraft unless technical shortcomings had been found. If you can't get insurance for your aircraft, you're on the EU blacklist. If you're on the EU blacklist or have been on it, no insurance company will sell you a coverage. What else to do than re-register and get insurance coverage? It's unfair but that's how it works...

Now, coincidence or not there is this thread on nutters.net:

A319 And Nearly 6h-flight?
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forum ... n/4603367/

Hello.

I just flew MX from MEX to YVR in an A319, the flight was 6:00hrs. That should be one of the longest routes too.

It was a nice flight by the way!

aeromexico757

Spanair operates its A321 on HEL-TFS which is 2562 nm and even KUO-LPA (2691nm).

AC YYZ-CCS is an A319 usually in the 5.5-6hr range.

It can't be done, it can't be done, ... because.... because Belgium ain't square...

[Vinnie-Winnie]

LOL NCB,

read the same threat earlier: U'r nicely omitting and it is being said in the threat that these routes are routes whose plane are either low configuration, have extra tanks, or are operated by charter airlines! Do you see any problems with that when operating to/from Africa? I do, and I see lots of problems!

[NCB]

Why, did someone mention in this threaD that SN should be flying 148 pax configs into Africa?
Only ones flying A319ER's mentionned in that thread are the AF Dedicates and QR's similar product and I have taken the precaution not to quote them.

US and UA fly their A319's East Coast to West Coast with dominant Westerly winds (head winds).
They are normal A319's also used on shorthaul.
Winds are dominantly West to East around the globe in most seasons, so Europe-Africa is not much affected because of its North-South routing.

Actually I didn't invent this concept, it already exists.

Virgin America flies BOS-SFO BOS-LAX on its A319 (normal ones), same great circle distance as BRU-OUA but with strong headwinds West-bound, denser 122 pax configuration than the proposed 108 Pax config and additional weight of PTV's. They don't need fuel stops, but they do when operating the A320's westbound on the route and so do B6 A320's.
The same aircraft are used for shorter sectors and they have the "First" class cabin with folding chairs, 50+inch pitch.
The front cabin is very popular and often fully booked, also on the short sectors. Many say they should have put more chairs in the front... it even won awards.
Though the airline lost considerable money during its start-up quarters, its financial results are bettering and hinting at a very *pink* future... The concept is just good.

[134flyer]

Now, coincidence or not there is this thread on nutters.net:

A319 And Nearly 6h-flight?
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forum ... n/4603367/

Hello.

I just flew MX from MEX to YVR in an A319, the flight was 6:00hrs. That should be one of the longest routes too.

It was a nice flight by the way!

aeromexico757

Spanair operates its A321 on HEL-TFS which is 2562 nm and even KUO-LPA (2691nm).

AC YYZ-CCS is an A319 usually in the 5.5-6hr range.

It can't be done, it can't be done, ... because.... because Belgium ain't square...

Nobody said that it is TECHNICALLY impossible to operate A319LR's to Africa, but as many others have said many times before: there are a lot of other factors besides the TECHNICAL specifications of a specific aircraft which decide if it is feasible for SN to operate A319's to Africa. Many have come up with valid arguments why it is NOT feasible for SN to operate 1 (or 15 ) A319's to Africa, but over and over again you mostly ignore these arguments and instead stubbornly hold on to your Grandiose Plan

You can absolutely not compare the domestic US market with the AFI market, you are totally comparing apples and oranges!! Once again, there are MANY MANY OTHER FACTORS INVOLVED besides aircraft types and seat configuration!!

[Vinnie-Winnie]

Gonna start banging my head against the wall here!

How can you compare american operations (Little Cargo, little luggage) to AFI destinations (Lots of Cargo, lots of Luggage)

that is just wrong!

[Airbus330lover]

Gonna start banging my head against the wall here!

How can you compare american operations (Little Cargo, little luggage) to AFI destinations (Lots of Cargo, lots of Luggage)

that is just wrong!

Zen
keep cool !

[JOVAN]

Why, did someone mention in this threaD that SN should be flying 148 pax configs into Africa?
Only ones flying A319ER's mentionned in that thread are the AF Dedicates and QR's similar product and I have taken the precaution not to quote them.

US and UA fly their A319's East Coast to West Coast with dominant Westerly winds (head winds).
They are normal A319's also used on shorthaul.
Winds are dominantly West to East around the globe in most seasons, so Europe-Africa is not much affected because of its North-South routing.

Actually I didn't invent this concept, it already exists.

Virgin America flies BOS-SFO BOS-LAX on its A319 (normal ones), same great circle distance as BRU-OUA but with strong headwinds West-bound, denser 122 pax configuration than the proposed 108 Pax config and additional weight of PTV's. They don't need fuel stops, but they do when operating the A320's westbound on the route and so do B6 A320's.
The same aircraft are used for shorter sectors and they have the "First" class cabin with folding chairs, 50+inch pitch.
The front cabin is very popular and often fully booked, also on the short sectors. Many say they should have put more chairs in the front... it even won awards.
Though the airline lost considerable money during its start-up quarters, its financial results are bettering and hinting at a very *pink* future... The concept is just good.

NCB, I admire your thoughness really.
Never mind all the experts here on this forum.

My remark as a frequent flyer is that this 319's or 737s on long haul are just claustrofobic.
Somehow I think people like wide bodies for flight over 3 to 4 hours.

My SN summer flight to TLV in a A330 was great; the same flight some tim ago in a A319 was not satisfactory at all.

Your idea might be great,but there are other things that PAX like/dislike

[NCB]

Many have come up with valid arguments why it is NOT feasible for SN to operate 1 (or 15 ) A319's to Africa, but over and over again you mostly ignore these arguments and instead stubbornly hold on to your Grandiose Plan

What arguments?
Cargo is so important that the only possible option is to operate with A330's or not at all?
Hardly arguments, I call them unthought thoughts. The sense of logic is absent.
Operating with A319's is better than operating with imaginary A330's full of fish and fruit.

You say U.S. and Africa are different. The only argument you are stating is luggage weight and cargo (like the others). With all due respect, Americans weigh 10kg on average more than Europeans. So that's 10kg more you can put on every passenger's luggage account Africa-Europe.
VX operates an A319 at the same distance as BRU-OUA in a heavier configuration with PTV's and strong headwinds... with luggage allowance of 30+kg for first bag and up to 10 checked bags with a total of Max. 200+kg per passenger.

Put this in your mind once and for all: Virgin America's A319's are not A319ER nor A319LR.
STANDARD A319!

6900km range in standard 124 pax config. WITHOUT aux. fuel tanks. and standard reserves.
Where this range comes from:
Same wings as A320 = same fuel capacity
Shorter and lighter fuselage than A320 = lower fuel burn = more range
2% lower MTOW for 20% lower passenger capacity = more fuel = more range

Some certainly make it sound like Africa is on the moon and that you need a Space Shuttle 330 to fly it.
The only real difference in Africa is that you only need alot of patience dealing with different lifestyles and the money-oriented authorities. Operationally, send crews that are not afraid of shooting visual approaches or going around because there's cattle on the runway... people like to make a big deal out of such small details, especially airline pilots who have never done real bush flying.

Operating Africa is so special that U.S. airlines are starting to announce new routes one after the other.
UA announced ACC and LOS last week, DL is looking at DLA. Hell, at this pace soon CO and AA will do the same and there won't even be any U.S.-Africa via Europe traffic anymore by 2015.