5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

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Vinnie-Winnie
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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by Vinnie-Winnie »

What some of you also seem to forget is that the european scheduled airline market is slowly heading towards one we can see in the US. ie a few mega hubs, some medium size hubs and most airport that connect to these hubs.

BRU is and will certainly not be a megahub for LH so best we can hope is that it becomes the medium size hub for Africa. And rest assured that if LH sees that an african destination out of bru is doing very well out of germany, it will start its own operations from its megahub in Frankfurt and force SN to share frequencies/dropt destinations.

That is why we will never see JNB or CPT out of Bru! Fra can more profitably route its passengers through FRA than BRU (P2P high yield german passengers + connecting passengers from different destinations including BRU)

SN best best is still slow growth into the Africa. Asia is covered by LH, US is covered by united and continental!

Some people are funny here! They dream of Sabena but criticize the old management that made Sabena the succesful company we all know in 2001, dream of new management but seem to forget that new management was put in place after 2001!



NCB wrote:Ouagadougou and Accra could be a nice triangle, but it would take time to establish a customer base there.
It certainly wouldn't be profitable until 2011.
Says who?

When you start a new destination, you do some marketing first, then, in a relatively uncompetitve market like Africa, you don't need to introduce high frequency from the start. You therefore start flying once or twice a week, perform some kind of triangular route. A flight can become very profitable in a very little amount of time. It's not an all or nothing
NCB wrote:Jovan was mentionning Air France, but there are some running start-up projects and already runnning projects like Afriqiyah that could take the entire market away from SN, AF and the others within 3 or 4 years.
And you think Afriqiyah is the new emirates of africa! Haha they got an inferior product, an awful hub, and 0 reputation! They also fly narrow bodies which is a minus point in Africa! Not gonna happen...

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RoMax
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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by RoMax »

NCB,SN expects to run break-even or even make profite in the last quarter of this year, that will not compensate the lost in the other 3 quarters of the year but it is something. And SN still has money in their pocket. Not much, but enouch. Trust me, they have money to lease an A330 and deploy some new routes.

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euroflyer
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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by euroflyer »

NCB wrote: A drastic expansion plan needs to be layed over the table.
Sorry, who exactly is going to pay for this "drastic expansion"? SN certainly (hopefully?) has the money to lease a fifth A330, maybe even number six as well and to start some new operations, but they have not won the lottery, have they? :cry: I cannot see where from - realistically - money for a drastic expansion should come. Maybe step by step from LH, but not now and not all at once (my guess). In the current economic climate you will not find anybody who will be willing to invest massively into a rather insecure investment like a drastic expansion into Africa or somewhere else, even more if it includes leasing or buying new planes first. There are a number of airlines around which already have the planes (as they had to cut back operations to many destinations) and are looking desperately for new lucrative destinations they could use them too. It will be hard enough to compete with them anyway ...
NCB wrote: I think that a large part of the capital injection through LH's acquisition is going to cover this year and the coming winter's losses.
Has there been a capital injection by LH at all? I thought the price paid by LH for the 45% of the SN mother company has been paid to the shareholders who sold the (their) company? But maybe I oversaw something.
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RoMax
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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by RoMax »

LH paid 65 million. 40 (45?) million for the shareholders of SN the other 25(20) million are for investements in SN itself.

NCB

Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by NCB »

Afriqiyah inferior product?

Image

This is a jail compared to this:

Image

Afriqiyah will stop to nothing to expand, they said.
http://www.eatribune.com/articles.php?id=732

Online ticketing, new terminals on their way.
I also smell a big A320 follow-up order coming very soon...

SN must expand now, even if in a non-traditional way... or lose Africa in a few years.
The tough competition will come anyway, it is a matter of building a network, brand recognition before it is too late.

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Vinnie-Winnie
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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by Vinnie-Winnie »

U r falling into that easy trick of thinking that what makes a different is PTV! Sorry but it's not by putting PTV that you attract customers! It's by being part of an alliance, brand recognition...

If ur unable to reply to any of my arguments and only able to post pictures of green seats with tv on them, then it really shows that you have 0 idea about how you run and market transport operations!

JOVAN
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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by JOVAN »

Vinnie-Winnie wrote:U r falling into that easy trick of thinking that what makes a different is PTV! Sorry but it's not by putting PTV that you attract customers! It's by being part of an alliance, brand recognition...

If ur unable to reply to any of my arguments and only able to post pictures of green seats with tv on them, then it really shows that you have 0 idea about how you run and market transport operations!
You are right to state that being member of an alliance is vital for an airline.
OK, finally, after loosing time for years, SN is part of a club.
And fortunately the best club.

Remains the fact that they have a very poor brand, dusty image in the market, very old planes, stupid b-light and flex service, amateur time-table, etc. SN is not, I repeat, not sexy.

That is their problem, now for years and years.

Afriqiyah still has a long way to go, but just like Ethiopian, they are luring away hundreds of PAX weekly from SN , in the lower cost segment. LowerCost with better planes, better service,..

Moreover, Addis and Tripoli Airports are not so backward as you may think.
They have improved constantly.

I saw once an ET arriving from BRU in Addis: only 20 PAX for Ethiopia; over a hundred transit to other places in Africa.

SN will remain an important player in Africa, but as a businessman and a frequent flyer, I would highly recommend them to spend more money and marketing efforts in
- Asia: Tokyo, Beijing and Bangkok seem obvious destinations.
- Russia: Moscow + St Pete: URGENT (now one poor flight only per day to DME; the long awaited 2nd flight ??
- Middle East: Dubai + Riyadh : paradises for business, even if DXB is a little down;
- US : East Coast
- Brazil and Mexico;
This are places where the business is, where you have wealth and growing wealth, ...


The future of Africa remains ....black.
Running an airline mainly for ngo's and a few rich Africans remains risky.

SN can better spread its wings.

cyrano
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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by cyrano »

NCB wrote:Afriqiyah inferior product?
Very nice pictures, but the top picture is not the Brussels Airlines A330 cabin. It's the cabin of former operator Air Madrid. Brussels Airlines used that aircraft (OO-SFW) in that state only for charter flights on Europe and wet-lease flights for Hewa Bora on Kinshasa. The cabin interior was changed befor using it on their own long haul sector.

NCB, you should check or update your information...

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tolipanebas
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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by tolipanebas »

Allow me to say way too much of the 'information' used to launch ideas in this topic comes from straight surfing the web and copy-pasting, without understanding any of it really. As I've told NCB, SN's A333s are early builts, so the idea to launch flights to South Africa with them were (as so often) based on completely wrong assumptions.

Basically, it's the same story as with your A319 operations to Central African destinations, if I may say so:
you've been looking at some purely theoretical performance graphs which assume nothing but overall best case scenario's and trying to turn data found on it into a cunning plan for some new thin long haul routes which nobody has come up with before (as if!), forgetting about the many operational matters which erode the theoretical payload range figures all manufacturers like to brag about yet which you need to exploit to the full to make your plan stick. Not a good starting point, is it? Le'ts conclude for once and for all it is not operationally possible to operate with unmodified A319s to destinations south of the sahara and it isn't possible to operate to South Africa with A333s.

BTW- Cyrano is correct, the picture above does NOT show an SN economy class interior, as can be seen from the missing overhead bins in the middle of the cabin... This is the interior of 00-SFW PRIOR to it's refurbishing! This little 'error' is illustrative of the level at which this discussion is being conducted...
Hastely drawn conclusions based on wrongfully interpreted information generally do not lead to high quality proposals, NCB.

JOVAN
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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by JOVAN »

tolipanebas wrote: This little 'error' is illustrative of the level at which this discussion is being conducted...
Hastely drawn conclusions based on wrongfully interpreted information generally do not lead to high quality proposals, NCB.
Tolipanebas, your and NCB's input are very interesting to read.

We all wish that BRU and SN become (again ?) respected players in this business.

This Forum is not more than a place where pilots, A/C, aviation enthousiasts, flyers and frequent flyers , technicians, airport personnel, consultants, ex airline managers, would be CEO's...... express their ideas, do some brain-storming...

'Little' errors are human.

So are big errors.

134flyer
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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by 134flyer »

Although already published in 2005, here is an interesting article about the difficulties AND the big opportunities to fly to Africa:

http://archives.californiaaviation.org/ ... 35513.html

AF decided to operate Dedicate A319's to Africa on specific high yield routes, but as you can read especially in the second part, there is a lot more involved than looking at theoretical performances of specific aircraft types. AF is a big AFI player and they operate their narrowbodies to niche markets, so I don't think it's a good plan if SN would start to compete on these routes with a 'Dedicate' A319 fleet on these routes. Although these routes are very lucrative, this market is also very thin. And even then, some opt to hop over to e.g. Brazzaville to take the 'comfortable widebody'.

NCB, although I appreciate your 'out of the box' thinking, it is getting a bit tiring. It's becoming more like: "I've seen a Martian, and if you don't believe me, YOU prove to me that Martians don't exist..."

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RoMax
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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by RoMax »

I have a question. I saw in a book in that the economy seats of Sabena's A330's and A340's (for sure the newest) had PTV's. But SN doesn't have these PTV's (for so far I now, that's why I asking it), why? Where such seats to expensive at that moment for SN? I only now that they got new bussiness seats in 2006 or something.

NCB

Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by NCB »

Putting PTV requires high-budget modifications.
New seats, wiring, etc...

For those complaining that the picture shown is an Air Madrid interior, you know very well that the only difference is the dark blue seat cover.
Afriqiyah's seats are nice leather seats, PTV's and the cabin looks fresh, new.
I would feel more comfortable in such a product, and yes AVOD is an added service.

On board service besides PTV is still better with SN, but Afriqiyah is progressing very fast.

They are also cheaper than SN, which is ideal for low budget travellers to/from Africa.

I agree that it's not possible to operate non-stop JNB with the existing fleet, but on the other hand no one stops SN from acquiring a newer MSN A330 and start it. I was proposing sending the 5th A330 to JNB anyway as the other 4 are already on a busy schedule.
I also stand by the A319 proposal, destinations like Accra, Ouagadougou can be served on red eyes without any additional investment, it could work on a 1:1 replacement of the ex-VEX B737. The adequate aircraft must be seeked, as early low gross weight A319's only have 4000km range with 124 pax. I believe that post-2000 models (3 out of 4 SN A319's) will have the 5000km operational range capabiliy to operate scheduled sub-saharian all the way down to DLA.
I thing that the low risk is worth a try... If they want they can also start with 1 x A319 and see how it goes.

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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by kiwiandrew »

NCB wrote:
I agree that it's not possible to operate non-stop JNB with the existing fleet, but on the other hand no one stops SN from acquiring a newer MSN A330 and start it. I was proposing sending the 5th A330 to JNB anyway as the other 4 are already on a busy schedule. .

I have found a lot of what you have said interesting , but I have to play devils advocate here .

What happens to the JNB service when the only JNB capable aircraft goes u/s ?

It is ( in my opinion) something of a risk to open a service that could only be operated by a single aircraft from the fleet .

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Vinnie-Winnie
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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by Vinnie-Winnie »

attracting "cheap" passengers will not make SN succesful! PTV is a gimmick that may or may not attract passengers.

As an airline you have to look at the operational side and the marketing side! I'm no expert in the operation side and will let Tolipanebas refute some arguments here. But from a business perspective I think I know what I'm talking about and some of you guys just have no sense of reality! You want SN to be bold, but have no memory or market knowledge. You also don't look at what is happening around us waaaaaah madness!

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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by teddybAIR »

Vinnie-Winnie wrote:U r falling into that easy trick of thinking that what makes a different is PTV! Sorry but it's not by putting PTV that you attract customers! It's by being part of an alliance, brand recognition...
With all due respect, but I think NCB reacted to...
Vinnie-Winnie wrote: Haha they got an inferior product,
and not to the features that make an airline (un)succesful. To give you my 2 cents: when on a particular airplane for 10+ hours and being squeezed in a tin can, I couldn't care less whether the airline is part of an alliance or not. What I'm interested in when you talk about the product is leg room, comfort, sheduling, etc. The rest is irrelevant for the experiencing of the product.

Now, it is a whole different ball game when you want to discuss the selection of an airline. That is where you would get out the textbook marketing theory about creating awareness, interest, consideration, preference, choice, action, etc.

Regards,
bAIR

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euroflyer
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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by euroflyer »

NCB wrote:but on the other hand no one stops SN from acquiring a newer MSN A330
except maybe for their bank manager :? :shock: 8-)


by the way: LH only very recently started to equip their long haul planes with PTV's in Eco, I think it is not yet done on all aircrafts? And they were quite successful so far in long-haul travel (at least successful enough to buy LX, OS, BMI, SN, ...). SO PTV's and cabin optic in Eco does not seem to be the most important issues (much more important probably to focus on C-Class cabin design ...).
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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by LX-LGX »

NCB wrote:SAA announced a few days ago an order for A330's, a conversion of their previous A340 'dispute' order.
NCB, you really should try to accept that the world wide web is not the answer to all questions. You are a master in surfing the net, but you obviously fail to understand that your www-source sometimes is incorrect. Lack of experience in the professional aviation and/or travel business is another reason why you should learn to accept the views from people who do have that experience, like tolipanebas or Vinnie Winnie.

Yes, SAA has ordered A330's. But they are A332's, not A333's. And not because of a "dispute order". The A332's will join the fleet in 2012 and 2013 as planned, because 6 x A342's will then be phased out. You are probably mixing up with the "dispute" about an order from 2002, when SAA ordered 15 x A320's, 11 x A319's and 15 x A340's. Those A320's were cancelled in 2004, but that cancellation was never confirmed by Airbus. Anyway, after some discussions, Airbus accepted the cancellation a few weeks ago, but at the same time SAA has ordered ... additional A320's. They will probably be used for Mango also, when Mango phases out its 738's as from 2012 (trust you know Mango is SAA's LCC, and SAA is becoming an Airbus-only carrier).
NCB wrote:Nevertheless, I believe that unless flights are leaving at noon during the South African summer, there shouldn't be any empty seats due to performance at JNB's 4400 meter runway. Again 100% load factor is a totally different concept than full payload, by more than 20 tons...
JNB is at 1.700m above sea level. Except for May till October, temperatures around 20h are almost always above 25°. But then, I'm sure you will tell us that a "new MSN A330" can take off under these circumstances for a nonstop JNB-BRU, fully loaded with pax and cargo and fuel...
NCB wrote:AF will be sending its A380's to JNB for the world cup, and I suspect LH will do the same.
This is another example of misleading information, like your photo mix-up (Air Madrid interior, presented as Brussels Airlines).
1. Air France is not sending it's A380's to the World Cup: AF is expecting delivery of 2 x A380's early March 2010. One will be used for JNB, the other one for Dubai. And they start using the A380 for JNB as from early March 2010 (World Cup is 11/06 till 11/07).
2. It's a pity that you haven't mentionned that Air France will reduce it's 14 weekly flights to 11, when the A380 starts flying to JNB.
NCB wrote:Just did an Orbitz search June 30th and found the cheapest about 2000$ return with SAA and we're still 7 months ahead with draws yet to be announced. Last-minute tickets will be very hot, count 3000-5000EUR return. Tickets for the stadium of the final usually go up to 5-10KEUR on the black market.
Soccer fans are not regular tourists.
Try the only booking engines Connections, Nouvelles Frontières and Joker! And don't check them for 30th June (first day of school holidays), but somewhere around 8th or 10th June. And don't limit your choice to SAA only. The tournament starts on 11th June, and every fan will like to see one of the three group pool matches (played between 11th June and 30th June). You will find easily tickets for less then 1.000 euro's. That's half of what you think Brussels Airlines can get for it.
How many European soccer fans will indeed pay 3.000 to 5.000 euro for an airline ticket to SA to see the final, without being sure they will be able to see that match? Only a very few, I guess. But surely not enough to fill a A319...

- - -

Bottom line: you really should try to accept that JNB has been discussed many many times at Brussels Airlines, on a level that overclasses your technical input. A319 is excluded because of practical reasons and passenger comfort, A330 is excluded because of operational reasons, cfr tolipanebas.

NCB

Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by NCB »

What happens to the JNB service when the only JNB capable aircraft goes u/s ?

It is ( in my opinion) something of a risk to open a service that could only be operated by a single aircraft from the fleet .
I thought of that, and I figured that actually JNB would be an advantage compared to other potential destinations if the 5th aircraft flying it goes U/S.

For JNB it's so easy to reschedule the passengers to fly with Lufthansa, Swiss and Star partners like TAP, Egyptair. The frequencies are high, the alternatives numerous. It will be a matter of choice.

Now my question: what are you going to do if one of the A330's flying any of the smaller airports like Ouagadougou goes U/S? LH doesn't fly there nor does any Star Alliance partner and SN doesn't have a full time spare aircraft seen that their A330 fleet is rather small. Especially if it's a long-lasting problem, it could mean big trouble as they will have to reshuffle the entire A330 schedule.

A disadvantage is that you can't fly daily anyway because BRU-JNB-BRU takes more than 24 hours with rotations. Basically, you would have to rotate with other cities to turn that disadvantage into an advantage.

Actually we haven't said much about the market itself.
JNB is one of the highest-yielding markets out there and still has alot of room for new carriers.
It's low risk, with finances getting tight and LH's 2011 bid, it could be the wisest choice for a 5th A330. A misstep at this point could be very expensive. Hell, if they can't find an A333 as there are not many more than zero on the market, the A332's, of which a few are available, would be even better operationally.
attracting "cheap" passengers will not make SN succesful!
No, but anyone would prefer to pay less, no matter what budget they are on.
Low-budget passengers are saving hard to pay for AF, SN seats these days and filling many of their seats. Who will stop them from choosing another cheaper carrier like Afriqiyah tomorrow?

Europe-Asia used to be a high yield market in the early 1990's, today it has become a low-yield battlefield where only established airlines can afford to make money by asking for reasonable yields. SQ went from nothing to become a reference by offering a good product at the right price. Carriers like Aeroflot or Air Asia X who have yet to establish are forced to compete with low fares and adequate products/services.
(As a matter of fact, I got a return ticket with SU BRU-NRT-BRU for 470EUR on the brand new A330...)

Euroflyer, in the same way, LH didn't need PTV's on longhaul because they are an established carrier with an established network and customer basis. They fly to 179 destinations worldwide. They highly rely on corporate travel in the first place, and on the travellers-genes of the Germans in the second place. They sell low-yield to agencies as well. But now that most airlines flying longhaul have AVOD, LH has to adapt and they are installing them on their fleet too. SN has only a dozen of African destinations, hardly an established network with a "major carrier" position, it is therefore at disadvantage to airlines like Afriqiyah who are aiming at becoming the major carrier in Africa with a not so inferior product. Today, we don't see a difference nor an imminent threat, but if Afriqiyah announces a big A320 order soon and I suspect that they will, the outlooks for SN near/mid-term would become bleak.

SN need to become the reference for Africa before any other smaller challengers are allowed to achieve that status.
Don't get me wrong, an A319 operation can not be meant to be permanent, or unless it proves to work too good to switch back to bigger capacities on some of the thinner routes.
If SN can raise some healthy cash (with 15 A319's flying red-eyes instead of 4xA319's & 11 B737's sleeping at night, 100 million euro profit per year is possible) by expanding quickly with A319 capacity, they will not be laughed at when in a few years they go to ILFC and ask for 20 A350XWB's and/or B787's.



LH bought half of SN and have the option to buy the rest in 2011, but we must assume the worst...
Actually if SN has a good strategy, new investors could join and even make actual shareholders turn 180 degrees. It would also make SN more attractive to LH because when you think about it, if LH really wanted SN that bad, they would have paid the full price right from the start. Some routes freedom rights need be negotiated politically, but one could question LH's real motives behind that move... LH did the same with BD and there even was a confrontation a few months ago between LH and BD shareholders.
LONDON, May 20 (Reuters) - BMI's controlling shareholder BBW Partnership Ltd said on Wednesday it has initiated action against Lufthansa (LHAG.DE) in the UK's High Court, requesting that the German airline be forced to complete the acquisition of British Midland.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKLK29676920090520

LH is a short-term relief for SN thanks to the cash injection covering for losses and Star membership.
Climbing up Maslow's pyramid, SN now need a mid-long term strategy and there could be nothing else than establishing a strong position in the sunny continent. A passive growth is not an option.
The colour of those AirDC tails are the spirit SN needs to show for Africa: "this is our territory and we're wild."


Simulation:
BRU 16:00 - AAA 22:30
AAA 23:30 - BRU 06:00
Daily inspection / operational margin
BRU 07:00 - GVA 08:00
GVA 08:30 - BRU 09:30
BRU 10:00 - FCO 12:00
FCO 12:30 - BRU 14:30
Check / light defects / operational margin
BRU 16:00 - to Africa

LOS/OUA/ACC/ABV/KAN/LFW/NIM/AJY/NDJ/ABJ/CKY/BKO/FNA/COO/KRT/PHC/NKC can work on this schedule. You can add 2 x daily to DKR and shift a A333 to JIB or some other place.
Add 30 minutes for the African flight, shorten the 2nd shorthaul flight and you can add:
ROB/BGF/NSI/DLA/SSG/LBV
Eventually shift the A333 doing DLA-FIH to non-stop or triangle with FBM.
All within operational range of post-2000 A319 with sufficient margin, some with spare room for cargo.

In no time, SN will have an important network and can start thinking of feeding from Asia and North America.

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Re: 5th A330 for Brussels Airlines

Post by sdbelgium »

LX-LGX wrote:Air France is not sending it's A380's to the World Cup: AF is expecting delivery of 2 x A380's early March 2010. One will be used for JNB, the other one for Dubai.
The Dubai plan has been shelved. Because of a delay in delivery of the second A380, they will immediately introduce a service to JNB; initially 3 times per week and with delivery of the third a daily rotation.

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