BRU winter 09-10: latest news, routes, airlines

[euroflyer]

Changes regarding the flights from BRU to MUC, HAM , TXL and FRA.

SN will discontinue the flights to MUC and will keep the morning flight to FRA.
The flight in the afternoon will be discontinued.

HAM: 4 times a day by SN
TXL: 7 times a day by SN
FRA: 1 flight by SN on, 8 by LH
MUC: 8 flights by LH

OK, if this is correct FINALLY we can see some results of the cooperation.

The afternoon flight to FRA indeed did not make much sense, at the moment you have SN2613 leaving BRU at 17h15, LH4581 at 17h35 or 17h45 and LH4583 at 18h10 . The morning flight to / from FRA will probably be kept as the timing is perfect for connecting pax from Africa to Frankfurt and it is the best timing on the way back from FRA to BRU (leaving FRA 8h15, whereas LH leaves at 7h10 and 9h35). Already today you can see that a quite big number of LH pax has turned to the SN2608 flight, which has a much higher load factor than a year ago, whereas the LH4572 at 9h35, which used to be operated by A320 or even A321 now frequently is operated by A319 or 737s with a still only average load factor.

Question 1 : what will happen with the unused slots (2 rotations on TXL, 1 rotation on FRA), will they be taken by a competitor (Air Berlin, easyjet from SXF?)

Question 2 : Will we see something similiar soon as well for VIE ? Here Air Niki could take any slots which become available. They will take in November already one additional VIE-FRA slot from LH/AUA.

[euroflyer]

So SN has received TXL and HAM, whereas LH takes MUC?

And here we can see where the first CRJ100/200 will be phased out at LH regional ... LH keeps FRA and MUC, where they have the bigger planes operating to / from and they give away TXL and HAM, where usually smaller planes are having their home bases

[euroflyer]

Hi airbuske,

Where did you get your info of the LH shedules for this winter?
Already checked both booking sites LH & SN and didn't noticed any changes of
aircraft or carriers !

Shouldn't they announce this change to their customers or change booking sites?
Noticed that the flights concerning TXL LH & SN togheter have 9 flights a day!
(where 6 by SN and 3 by eurowings LH )

Strange.

CX-B

I have just checked the LH booking engine as well and the FRA and MUC changes seems to be reflected there, no afternoon flight of SN to/from FRA in November anymore and no SN flights to MUC at all, TXL and HAM however seems to be unchanged for the moment

[tolipanebas]

The afternoon flight to FRA indeed did not make much sense: at the moment you have SN2613 leaving BRU at 17h15, LH4581 at 17h35 (or 17h45) and LH4583 at 18h10.

Exactly, but whereas codesharing doesn't need approval from the EU, setting up an integrated time table does, so it couldn't be done before.

Now it can, and its good to see it is done swiftly, because sharing the work has many benefits.
SN and LX have been doing it for years with great success on Switzerland: GVA exclusively to SN, ZRH and BSL to LX.

The morning flight to / from FRA is perfect for connecting pax from Africa to Frankfurt and it is the best timing on the way back from FRA to BRU (leaving FRA 8h15, whereas LH leaves at 7h10 and 9h35). Already today you can see that a quite big number of LH pax have turned to the SN2608 flight, which has a much higher load factor than a year ago, whereas the LH4572 at 9h35, which used to be operated by A320 or even A321 now frequently is operated by A319 or 737s with a still only average load factor.

I'd expect the morning SN flight to FRA to be permanently upgraded to A319 in the future...
Already in November, some rotations are scheduled on A319, so the loadfactor on the flight must indeed be quite good.

Will we see something similiar soon as well for VIE ?

An integrated timetable is being worked out with Austrian right now indeed.
Since there's only one route concerned, I'd expect it to be shared evenly amongst SN and OS, with about 5 or so daily return flights and with both airlines canceling their nightstopping early morning return flight from the other base...

What's interesting is that SN also talks about doing the same with BMI, but to my knowledge there are no route overlaps in the network.
Does this mean SN might start operating some of the BMI flights to BRU, for instance those currently operated by the Embraers? It's a fact BMI has nothing in its fleet between an A319 and an Emb145, so maybe an RJ85 of SN is better suited on some routes sometimes, especially now that there may be more demand on the routes thanks to the onward codeshares offered through BRU?
Or are they even talking about taking over some flights to LHR???
Well, one can always dream, not?

[Established02]

> I'd expect the morning SN flight to FRA to be permanently upgraded to A319 in the future...

SN is keeping their 2607/2608 only for this winter season.
This rotation will probably not be operated anymore during the upcoming summer season.
Flights beyond 27MAR10 may still be in the system, but will expectedly be taken out rather soon.

> TXL and HAM however seems to be unchanged for the moment

Everything will be updated by tomorrow or after tomorrow.

> easyjet from SXF?

As announced previously, U2 is going double daily on BRU-SXF as from 25OCT09.

[tolipanebas]

SN is keeping their 2607/2608 only for this winter season.
This rotation will probably not be operated anymore during the upcoming summer season.
Flights beyond 27MAR10 may still be in the system, but will expectedly be taken out rather soon.

Strange to keep this single flight for just one season...

Any particular reason as to why it isn't scrapped right away as well then, just like the afternoon rotation?

Or does LH need to swap slots first (which takes time), so they can operate their first flight around the times of the SN flight?

Fact is the morging flight is doing much better than before (thanks to the LH codeshare)

[euroflyer]

SN is keeping their 2607/2608 only for this winter season.
This rotation will probably not be operated anymore during the upcoming summer season.
Flights beyond 27MAR10 may still be in the system, but will expectedly be taken out rather soon.

That would be a real loss , this flight is perfectly timed in both directions (onward connection from Africa flights to FRA in Brussels and best morning flight from FRA to BRU, arriving just in time for a 10h00 or 10h30 meeting in BRU. LH is either far too early or too late).

[sdbelgium]

The "new" Olympic Air will no longer fly 737-400s to Brussels, but will instead bring 32S series to BRU.

EFF 29SEP09 (launch): 13 weekly A319
EFF 10DEC09: daily A320 and 6 weekly A319 (schedule below)

Code: Select all

OA 145  ATH 0725  BRU 0955  320  D
OA 146  BRU 1045  ATH 1500  320  D

OA 147  ATH 1630  BRU 1900  319  x6
OA 148  BRU 1945  ATH 2359  319  x6

[Atlantis]

The "new" Olympic Air will no longer fly 737-400s to Brussels, but will instead bring 32S series to BRU.

EFF 29SEP09 (launch): 13 weekly A319
EFF 10DEC09: daily A320 and 6 weekly A319 (schedule below)

Code: Select all

OA 145  ATH 0725  BRU 0955  320  D
OA 146  BRU 1045  ATH 1500  320  D

OA 147  ATH 1630  BRU 1900  319  x6
OA 148  BRU 1945  ATH 2359  319  x6

Yes indeed and they are in a nice livery.

[tolipanebas]

Brussels Airlines will announce on the 9th of December whether (or not) to add a 5th A330 to its long haul fleet.

Given this date coincides with SN's formal accession to STAR alliance at the annual meeting of all STAR alliance CEOs in BRU and the airline wants to make quite a big event out of it, I have a feeling it will be a GO this time.

Wouldnt even be surprised to see this plane in a STAR-alliance livery.

The plane will/would be deployed on new West-African destinations as from June.

[Conti764]

Given this date coincides with SN's formal accession to STAR alliance at the annual meeting of all STAR alliance CEOs in BRU and the airline wants to make quite a big event out of it, I have a feeling it will be a GO this time.

Wouldnt even be surprised to see this plane in a STAR-alliance livery.

Thus, we get an event like this on the BRU appron:

http://www.staralliance.com/assets/imag ... _plane.JPG

Could very well be true of course

[DannyVDB]

The plane will/would be deployed on new West-African destinations as from June.

If so, I would guess: Ouagadougou-Bamako (3x) and Cotonou-Lomé (3x), or Ouagadougou-Cotonou (3x) and some more frequencies on existing routes (3x).

Would be good news ...

Danny

[RoMax]

Something I hope for is all 4 new destinations (Ouagadougou, Bamako, Cotonou, Lomé) and 1-2 more frequenties on existing routes. Than they can't operate 3 frequenties a week to al this 4 destinations but that isn't needed in the beginning I think, altough with Air France SN need to wacht out.

[Conti764]

Something I hope for is all 4 new destinations (Ouagadougou, Bamako, Cotonou, Lomé) and 1-2 more frequenties on existing routes. Than they can't operate 3 frequenties a week to al this 4 destinations but that isn't needed in the beginning I think, altough with Air France SN need to wacht out.

On a smaller level, SN should do what AF (and others btw) did when Sabena went bankrupt, take away clients... In recent developments, AF didn't show much intrest in expanding into Africa and given the fact this is SN's niche market...

This is a good time to expand your client base and best way to do so is in your own backyard, the Benelux and France. LH can supply German clients and the future Star Alliance partners can provide some transatlantic feed.

Therefore SN shouldn't only be looking for more Africa ops, but make sure they can offer their clients a good connection to Paris and Amsterdam. Considering Paris, I would focus on Orly, for two reasons. SN shouldn't be focussing on CDG since this destination doens't give them extra advantages over Orly, and Orly would even give benefits to SN's clients CDG can't offer.

[RoMax]

And in my opinion SN must start to fly to AMS, that will atract also more *A partners that are now flying to AMS (like CO with their Houston operation) CO is codesharing with KLM for now on the route BRU-AMS. In my opinion an route Houston-BRU must be possible but only when they drop Houston-AMS and with good connections to Europe and AFI and AMS need to be one of these EU destinations that could be codeshared bij CO. For the rest I am thinking about Singapore Airlines, I think they will be interested in a route BRU-AMS operated by SN.

When I heard that LH will fase out some CRJ's and ATR's I was thinking that maybe 3-5 ATR's can operate some small routes for SN, example's are Bordeaux, Clermont-Ferrand, maybe some smaller destinations in the UK. For such routes a RJ85 is maybe to big, but an ATR-42 or ATR-72 or CRJ-100/200.
And a larger EU network with big codeshares of partners will attract more AFI pax and that is something Air France is not going to like.

[Conti764]

And in my opinion SN must start to fly to AMS, that will atract also more *A partners that are now flying to AMS (like CO with their Houston operation) CO is codesharing with KLM for now on the route BRU-AMS. In my opinion an route Houston-BRU must be possible but only when they drop Houston-AMS and with good connections to Europe and AFI and AMS need to be one of these EU destinations that could be codeshared bij CO. For the rest I am thinking about Singapore Airlines, I think they will be interested in a route BRU-AMS operated by SN.

Slightly off topic, but CO is never going to drop IAH to AMS in favor of BRU. The O&D traffic between IAH and AMS is to big because of the oil industry. Maybe we'll see a IAH-BRU rotation one day, but it won't have anything to do with CO leaving Skyteam and KL for Star Alliance and SN.

I do see opportunities for SN to operate a BRU-AMS rotation with larger equipment than the foreseen Avro's, this way CO clients from IAH willing to go to BRU have two options: either via EWR and arrive early morning, or via AMS and arrive slightly later.

[LJ]

I do see opportunities for SN to operate a BRU-AMS rotation with larger equipment than the foreseen Avro's, this way CO clients from IAH willing to go to BRU have two options: either via EWR and arrive early morning, or via AMS and arrive slightly later.

SN requested slots for an early morning flights (AMS-BRU-AMS) for Summer 2009 and again in the Winter 2009-2010. However they always returned these slots before (or just after) the deadline. I reckon that AMS is only interested if it can be connected with the flights to Africa. However this can only be done if the aircraft leaves BRU around 08:00 - 09:00 but return around 09:00 - 10:00... Thus only the same way CDG is served can be viable, which was also reflected in the slot requests (and this isn´t a cheap option). However, if LH would do a Germany - AMS - BRU - AMS - Germany rotation then the problem is solved.

For the rest I am thinking about Singapore Airlines, I think they will be interested in a route BRU-AMS operated by SN.

Have you ever seen an SQ codeshare flight? I haven´t. I think SQ isn´t very interested in codesharing.

[RoMax]

Singapore Airlines is already codesharing on the LH flights from FRA to BRU, so why they wouldn't be interested in a SN flight from BRU to AMS, BRU is a hole in their European network and so long they doesn't operate own flights to BRU they can codeshare on a SN flight to BRU (AMS is served by SQ). If they connect AMS and FRA with BRU via codeshares they can attract more pax than only FRA, and for the moment they can not codeshare between AMS and BRU because KLM is the only operating airline on the route.

[tolipanebas]

I would focus on Orly, for two reasons. SN shouldn't be focussing on CDG since this destination doens't give them extra advantages over Orly, and Orly would even give benefits to SN's clients CDG can't offer.

Care to elaborate just what benefits ORY offers which CDG can't?

My personal opinion is that it doesn't matter whether SN serves CDG or ORY (or both), as they would just be attracting the same pax at ORY they now pick up at CDG, but given ORY is about 10 min flying further south, it would make the connecting flight more expensive: remember this flight is given for (almost) free to the connecting pax, so it has to be operated as cheaply as possible.

On top of that, SN would be about the only STAR airline at ORY.
Don't know if that is such a good idea either, just as SN could finally make savings by starting to use the 'under one roof project of STAR' and by using the station's facilities of the LH group at CDG (LH/LX/OS).

[Conti764]

Care to elaborate just what benefits ORY offers which CDG can't?

My personal opinion is that it doesn't matter whether SN serves CDG or ORY (or both), as they would just be attracting the same pax at ORY they now pick up at CDG, but given ORY is about 10 min flying further south, it would make the connecting flight more expensive: remember this flight is given for (almost) free to the connecting pax, so it has to be operated as cheaply as possible.

On top of that, SN would be about the only STAR airline at ORY.
Don't know if that is such a good idea either, just as SN could finally make savings by starting to use the 'under one roof project of STAR' and by using the station's facilities of the LH group at CDG (LH/LX/OS).

Isn't CDG more slot restricted then ORY and more expensive to operate too? CDG is a great airport for a home carrier, but less for a carrier operating a feeder flight from the Paris region to their own hub.