2008-2009 Liège Airport (LGG) latest news

[sn26567]

Please abstain from politics in this topic (and in all other topics as well)!

[Acid-drop]

Well, this is a bit off topic also, but It's worth the talk I think.

The new guillemins train station will make its grand opening tomorow.
It's not to compete against airport but more to complete them, maybe to feed them.
Paris in 2h13, Cologne in 1h01, Frankfurt (airport and city) in 2h00 ... this is already today.
Maastrich, both Limburg province, Liège, several millions people have now a brand new gateway

A nice article about it :
http://www.the-sheet.com/architecture-n ... o-tomorrow

And of course, wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li%C3%A8ge ... ay_station

[Filou]

Just one small remark; I do believe that no-one is aware that the military do organise the Traffic Control during the day now at LGG, and that as soon as they'll leave, it will normally be done by Belgocontrol...which will cost the airlines money I believe.
Has any-one thought of that ?
Is everybody so pleased that they will leave ?

[jan_olieslagers]

I do be aware of that, yes, it's simple to find in the AIP. Interestingly, it even changes the airspace class from C to D and vice versa. But the consequences are not very clear to me:

-) Belgocontrol is already doing ATC outside business hours, which means all hours of the week (7*24) minus more or less 40 business hours. So the military are only providing a small amount of time, and that at the cheapest moments.
-) does anyone know how much the military charge today for their service to "the civilians" ?
-) I do not think the invoices, neither from the military nor from Belgocontrol, go to the airlines; I always understood ATC and other services are charged to the airport operators, who can then charge the airlines.

[Filou]

Dear Jan,
I will not discuss how much the military are charching the civilians, as I don't even know the amount at all, but as you launched the idea: have you got an idea how much the government is charging the civilians to "subsidies" LGG airport for example (Or CRL?) ? Ever seen how many MILLIONS of Euro is given by the walloon government to LGG in this case, just to be able to cover the costs ? I will give you the pleasure of searching the internet, as you can find it all over there, and please don't be surprised...
Not really difficult to attract some carriers, as it is just "buying" customers, it's for no other reason than financial.
And coming back to Belgocontrol: they never charge airports, they always charge airlines directly.
The actual airlines operating at LGG are not charged any ATC charge at all at this moment, as the agreement was that during daylight the Military would organise the ATC, which they do.
Now if they leave, and if Belgocontrol comes in also during daylight, the rule might easily change, and cost will appear...to airlines who are not expecting it and oprate at LGG to save the ATC cost.
Of course at that moment the airport could offer extra incentives to keep the total cost for an airline lower, but then again they would need money...your money... :
I believe people should look a little deeper in some cases, although some are afraid to do so as the truth might hurt !

[Nevihta]

-) Belgocontrol is already doing ATC outside business hours, which means all hours of the week (7*24) minus more or less 40 business hours. So the military are only providing a small amount of time, and that at the cheapest moments.

Militaries are operating the tower (local time) :

Monday 08.00-22.00 (14hrs)
Tuesday : 08.00-22.00 (14 hrs)
Wednesday : 08.00-22.00 (14 hrs)
Thursday : 08.00-15.00 and quite often later if they are awaiting helicopers (+7hrs)
Friday : 08.00-15.00 (7hrs)

that makes around 56 hrs

[haflinger]

Dear Jan,
I will not discuss how much the military are charching the civilians, as I don't even know the amount at all, but as you launched the idea: have you got an idea how much the government is charging the civilians to "subsidies" LGG airport for example (Or CRL?) ? Ever seen how many MILLIONS of Euro is given by the walloon government to LGG in this case, just to be able to cover the costs ? I will give you the pleasure of searching the internet, as you can find it all over there, and please don't be surprised...
Not really difficult to attract some carriers, as it is just "buying" customers, it's for no other reason than financial.
And coming back to Belgocontrol: they never charge airports, they always charge airlines directly.
The actual airlines operating at LGG are not charged any ATC charge at all at this moment, as the agreement was that during daylight the Military would organise the ATC, which they do.
Now if they leave, and if Belgocontrol comes in also during daylight, the rule might easily change, and cost will appear...to airlines who are not expecting it and oprate at LGG to save the ATC cost.
Of course at that moment the airport could offer extra incentives to keep the total cost for an airline lower, but then again they would need money...your money... :
I believe people should look a little deeper in some cases, although some are afraid to do so as the truth might hurt !

Filou,

You seem to think that the walloon gvmt is wasting money to attract operators in LGG or CRL.
Sure they do inject money, but it's an investment. Why would they do that? Just to appear doing something?
Look around you, you'll see it's common practice to reduce charges or taxes to attract. Not only in aviation.
In France, in Germany, and even in the mighty Flanders (OPEL) they all do the same thing.

You give 1 and you get 2 (taxes, jobs, consumption,...).

"I believe people should leave their narrow "country", open their eyes, and stop beleiving urban legends!"

[Filou]

Dear Haflinger,
Let's focus on the discussion, we are talking about airports,not about Opel or whatsoever.
In some cases I do agree, but on this I don't...and I would like to ask you just 2 questions:
* Can you find me ONE other European cargo-airport where the investment is abou half of the costs ona yearly base ? Or in other words, where the revenue is half of the costs ?????
* You say you need to put 1 in to get 2 out. Please explain where in LGG that the 2 that are coming out could be found ? I really wonder.
rgds

[cnc]

100 extra jobs = 100 less unemployed people who are contributing (taxes) also.
maybe purely seen on the aviation side LGG and CRL are a waste of money but if you look at everything related to it i think its already paying itself back to the walloon goverment

[haflinger]

Dear Haflinger,
Let's focus on the discussion, we are talking about airports,not about Opel or whatsoever.
In some cases I do agree, but on this I don't...and I would like to ask you just 2 questions:
* Can you find me ONE other European cargo-airport where the investment is abou half of the costs ona yearly base ? Or in other words, where the revenue is half of the costs ?????
* You say you need to put 1 in to get 2 out. Please explain where in LGG that the 2 that are coming out could be found ? I really wonder.
rgds

Dear Filou,

*No I can't. Nobody has the exact figures and the terms of the contract in any european cargo airport. But what I can tell you is that subsidies to attract companies are widespread practices in business. Don't talk about OPEL (event though it's the same) then, but just think about DHL in Leipzig, FEDEX in Paris, Boeing's headquarters,... it sure wasn't for free )

My question is why would thez offer rebate if it would cost them more than what they get? Cos they are stupid?????

*I worked 3 years in LGG not so long ago. I was one of the people getting a job thanks to the rebate. Now I left but somebody else took my place, and is now living in the region, bought a car, flies with BRUair or VLM (or AF we don't know now )... You see I was a living example... )

Anyway, there you can find:
-Direct jobs created by companies (now plenty of them):
-Pilots (many Flemish aswell), Enginneers, office's employees, managers,...
-Indirect jobs:
-Taxi (company had to hire a few people thanks to the tnt contract -> Rental car -> maintenance ...)
-Catering company (a small new one has been created for the canteens in the ariport and in the companies on the site
-Security companies wich had to hire personnal
-...

It's a pyramid, for one direct job you have a certain number of indirect jobs (no, I can't tell you how much, but a lot, trust me).
Of all those people, not all were living in the LGG region or in Belgium, now they have a job, now they pay taxes, now they consume, and they help running the belgian economy.

TNT would not pay any airport taxes, it would not be good for the balance sheet of LGG. On the other hand and linked to all above, you see the balance is positive for the region and for Belgium in a whole.

Kind regards,


Side note:

I sincerely regret that on luchtzak when it comes to the southern part of Belgium, most loose common sense and become biased, just repeating the same urban legends, and the same politic's crap about their neighboors.
Filou, I hope you are not like that. Thanks

[LX-LGX]

I sincerely regret that on luchtzak when it comes to the southern part of Belgium, most loose common sense and become biased, just repeating the same urban legends, and the same politic's crap about their neighboors.

Indeed.

Talking in general - thus not only LGG: what we should need for this discussion is a full audit about the Belgian airports: who owns what, juridical position, financial structures, legal structures, how they are financed, how airlines are financed from regional sources, .... We'll need to know the situation before and after 1989, when airports came under regional jurisdiction.

Why is airport X suffering with its runway length because regional administration doesn't want to provide finance for road works next to the runway, whilst airport Y enjoyed federal funds for the road to a new airport building? Why were three expensive passenger scanners donated in 2009 to airport A, whilst airport B last month had to pay for a terrain that will not be used - unless as a safety parameter?

Is this off topic? Not at all: it's something which should be brought up in every discussion about Belgian airports.

[Filou]

Dear all,

All the answers on the questions above are available, sometimes by searching te internet, sometimes by asking left or right. But be sure, it all is available and very clear.

On the job issue: I'm so sorry, but I don't agree, as in the case that a new job is created in LGG for example, it meant that somewhere else that same job disappeared. And in most of the cases it was a private,non-subsidized job, that disappeared to be replaced by a subsidized job.
If you believe what you say, would you agree by stopping all private jobs and replace them by subsidised jobs ? Sure you want to do this ? Would you know what kind of taxes you would need to pay as a citizen to feed the governments ????? For sure i wouldn't...

And on the questions of LX-LGX:Also all these answers are to be found easily sir.
First you need to make the difference between a private and a govenmental airport ( even local govnmt). Then the difference is to be found who would pay for what kind of costs...then the decission to to allow something or refuse it is much easier to be made.

A question that unfortunately was not mentionned, and is at least as important as all the others; why is airport A restricted for some types of aircraft even during he day, is like closed during the night, and anoter is allowed to have them day and night without any restriction ? Just another issue.

Whatever reason there could be, we'll never talk about a same level playing field...
unfortunately...
And this means that we will always have both positive and negative things on all questions or issues we'll launch
good week-end

[Atlantis]

tonnage JAN-JUL : 252.911 tons
(last year at that time : 319.000 tons, so it's a decrease of 20%)
Source : http://www.liegeairport.com/liege-airpo ... go_010.htm

LGG is confirmed as #1 cargo airport in Belgium (BRU at 242.6 (-42.7%))

Not too fast Acid-Drop. BRU is still number 1 as cargo airport in Belgium. There is already for months a problem with the exact cargo figures. 25.000 - 30.000 ton of cargo is not registered in the official cargo figures. They are going to give very soon the exact cargo figures, retroactive.

[dna]

Not too fast Acid-Drop. BRU is still number 1 as cargo airport in Belgium. There is already for months a problem with the exact cargo figures. 25.000 - 30.000 ton of cargo is not registered in the official cargo figures. They are going to give very soon the exact cargo figures, retroactive.

Isn't that because LGG includes cargo by truck and BRU doesn't? I was told that if you use the same criteria, then BRU indeed is the #1 cargo airport in Belgium.

[Atlantis]

The correction by 25.000 - 30.000 ton is pure air freight. So in that case alone BRU is still number 1 as cargo airport. Cargo trucking is not included in the monthly figures.

BTW if we take air freight and cargo trucking together for BRU then we have more then 1.000.000 ton a year.
If I'm not wrong the total cargo figure for 2008 (air and truck) was 1.200.000 ton.

So always the same: we have to compare the correct figures.

[Acid-drop]

It's very hard to imagine how they forgot to count 30.000 tons of freight... that's more than 250 747's full ... hard to miss

It's good to have a joker when you need it the most.

I'm looking forward to have the number of september, so we can have a good view.

BTW, Avient and the new Liège-HK relation from TNT are gonna help LGG to finish the year in a good way I guess

[Filou]

All,
Atlantis is right, this is also what I heard and read. Although I believe the 2008 figure was just over 1.000.000 ton.
And on Acid-drop's idea: it's not a joker at all, it's just a fact...and facts should be compared with facts, it's that simple.
It's a pity the error occured, because without that BRU shall declare all it's freight as it is, and separate Full freighter, belly, Integrator and trucked ftreight;
Not many others do unfortunately...
And why never to count trucked freight in an airports figure ? because it is counted as flown freighter freight in another airport.
LUX is doing such as LGG and declaring it al together, which is wrong...unfortunately...

[Acid-drop]

tonnage JAN-SEPT : 326.222 tons
(last year at that time : 393.000 tons, so it's a decrease of 17%)
Source : http://www.liegeairport.com/liege-airpo ... go_012.htm

Looking forward to see what's the result of BRU.

[Desert Rat]

http://www.lecho.be/actualite/entrepris ... 41-582.art

[Filou]

"Looking forward to see what's the result of BRU"
For those who follow up on Brussels Airport's cargo figures: they still are a higher than LGG on YTD base...not much, but enough to remain bigger YTD