The future of Brussels Airlines with Lufthansa

[kiwiandrew]

I don't think SN will start a Atlantic flight with own metal this or next year. But Boston will work really good from BRU. It was one of the most succesfull Sabena destinations in the past. And there is still a lot of ask for this route. And that's wy I proposed that LH can maybe fly from Germany via BRU to Boston with their own planes, than SN don't take any risk. Or they can base 1 plane in BRU for this route to BOS and the cabin crew can be half SN and half LH.

Please dont take this the wrong way ( I know that it seems that I always have questions about what you have posted but that is because I find your posts interesting , not because I think that they are wrong ) , but I am wondering what "one of the most successful Sabena destinations in the past" actually means - from what I have read a lot of 'old' SN routes had fantastic load factors but terrible yields ( I do not claim to know this for a fact , it is just based on a lot of reading I have done on the subject - I would love to have feedback from any former Sabena people who could either confirm or refute this ) so , my question would be - do you mean that BRU-BOS had great loads , or do you mean that it actually made money?

[RoMax]

What I heard about the route is that this route make a lot of money together with Montreal. This routes make a lot of the other Atlantic los making routes good, thats what I hear about it.

@LJ: With Dublin I mean, this would be a new market for SN that they fly themself even if they codeshare with Aer Lingus they not really operate themself on this market (Ireland). And if Aer Lingus can operate 2 daily A320's than can it be possible for SN to operate 1 daily flight with an Avro or A319 or so.
That Rossiya wil cooperate close with AF/KL looks strange for me, they are(where) talking with Star Alliance for a membership.
About AMS, did they get slots for only one daily AMS flight?, this looks not very much compared with KLM (5 or 6 daily flights I think) but I hope they will fly this route and with lower fares than KLM. About kiev you are correct, I forget that codeshare with Ukraine International.
Do you have no opinion about Bari, Bucharest, Glasgow, Bordeaux, Valencia and Ljublijana? Especially Bari looks intresting, they fly it in the past, but than there was Myair, but now there gonne. They flyed three times a week with a CRJ-900 (86-90 pax) than can SN fly this route 1 or 2 times a week with an Avro, don't they?

[BrightCedars]

You forgot DL who is also flying to JFK out of BRU.

Did not. DL is not a member of Star Alliance and isn't about to be, I'm talking about SN's offering as an LH subsidiary and member of Star Alliance. A virtual network of many North American destinations.

[tolipanebas]

What I heard about the route is that this route make a lot of money together with Montreal. This routes make a lot of the other Atlantic los making routes good, thats what I hear about it.

@LJ: With Dublin I mean, this would be a new market for SN that they fly themself even if they codeshare with Aer Lingus they not really operate themself on this market (Ireland). And if Aer Lingus can operate 2 daily A320's than can it be possible for SN to operate 1 daily flight with an Avro or A319 or so.
That Rossiya wil cooperate close with AF/KL looks strange for me, they are(where) talking with Star Alliance for a membership.
About AMS, did they get slots for only one daily AMS flight?, this looks not very much compared with KLM (5 or 6 daily flights I think) but I hope they will fly this route and with lower fares than KLM. About kiev you are correct, I forget that codeshare with Ukraine International.
Do you have no opinion about Bari, Bucharest, Glasgow, Bordeaux, Valencia and Ljublijana? Especially Bari looks intresting, they fly it in the past, but than there was Myair, but now there gonne. They flyed three times a week with a CRJ-900 (86-90 pax) than can SN fly this route 1 or 2 times a week with an Avro, don't they?

I first decided NOT to do this, but I'll do it anyway (at risk of starting a lenghty discussion).

Most of the destinations you've mentioned don't make any sense, my friend:

DUB: what for? Irisch going to AFI? ROTFL Or to EU, connecting through BRU?
DUB is the homebase of Europe's largest LCC FR and EI is serving the route to BRU multiple times daily. If yo're looking for the potentially lowst yielding route for SN, you've just picked the best candidate!

LED: SN operated on that in the past, and it had very low loadfactors. Besides, OS and LH serve the place, so within a STAR network, it simply doesn't make sense for SN do start such a route.

AMS: if they do it, it will be just like CDG, to bring in connecting pax. But as somebody already mentioned, SN has applied for slots in the past and each time gave them back, probably because they feel the number of Dutch going to AFI is rather limited and the train is a good alternative (contrary to the train from Paris)

LJU: was served once daily by SN up untill last year and is now in a codeshare with STAR alliance partner Adria, offering multiple daily flights... Could you please first check the timetable before making suggestions?

GLA, OTP: let's just say: they've been there, done that,and lost an awful lot of money on it! Check facts before making suggestions on 'new' routes.

Bari interesting? With just 2 or 3 flights a week? My fiend, SN is a network carrier, with the aim to offer convenient connections multiple times a day. A route which is operating only once or twice a week, is a low yielding route, perfect for low cost carriers, but this is not the core business of an airline like SN. Have a look on how they've opened LIN: immediately twice daily. This is the kind of thing SN need to make a route work. If it can't do that, better don't bother about it. You seem stuck in a point-to-point VEX kind of thinking, definitely not the kind of thinking a STAR network airline needs to be doing!
Besides, Myair went bust, so I wouldn't be so sure their network was such a money maker....

I've said it before: the only place which remotely may make any sense at all is BOD....
and a second morning flight to CDG.
Other than that, there's really nothing of any value in the list you've given.

[RoMax]

You need to read better before do like that, I never said this would be perfect destinations. I said that i picked some destinations in Europe that aren't served by SN. And I ASKED you if this are destinations with a future, likly not, but do you need to do like I am a stupid person that is doing anoying. I am really not an expert but a big aviation lover, if I mention some destinations and ask if this is something for SN you don't have any reason to do like that.
And what about the destinations wich I mentioned as underserved destinations like CDG, Nice (a good connection flight for AFI), Helsinki (Finnair codeshare will be lost), Bucharest (codeshare with Malev will be lost) this lost codeshares mean a lot of flights that will be lost, they can uprade this routes no? And again this is a QUESTION!!

[tolipanebas]

Not wanting to attack you in person, but it has become a pattern of yours to make a post full of the wildest ideas, full of errors even if I may add and then when somebody points out the inconsistencies in it and extensively explains you why you're idea's are not even realistic, let alone possible, you say: "hey, it was just an idea, I am only asking, you've misread me; don't be angry with me (which nobody is BTW)".

Not wanting to nitpick, but a codeshare on Bucharest with MALEV like you write in your latest mail????
What are you talking about????

You may be a great aviation lover, I have no doubt about that, but may I suggest you first do some basic homework on SN before asking dead-obvious questions on their network? Half the things you suggest, you could easily judge yourself if you'd first do some reading.Try to at least know the CURRENT network of SN, its partnerships and some of their failures on routes form the not too distant past, before mingling in this topic... That's all I want to say on this.

Again, nothing against you in person, but please, please...
Do some basic reading first. It really isn't that difficult these days, with the internet...

(I knew I should have stayed out of this....)

[fretn]

Hey Guys, I'd like everybody to cool down a bit.
REMEMBER: this is a public forum. And up to now, we don't know anyting about SN's future...
Just have some patience, we'll probably have some new news in early september.

[tolipanebas]

Hey Guys, I'd like everybody to cool down a bit.
REMEMBER: this is a public forum. And up to now, we don't know anyting about SN's future...
Just have some patience, we'll probably have some new news in early september.

All that I'd love to see is that if a suggestion for a new route is made, it is based on more than just a quick look at the map of Europe in front of you and saying: "hey, there's another dot which SN doesn't link (itself) with BRU yet, let's go online and ask if it makes sense to start it"

Maybe do some basic thinking yourself before? Like:
Aren't they already offering the route through a codeshare?
Is there not a STAR airline serving the route (meaning it will soon be offered through codeshare)?
Did they operate (and fail) on it before?

That's just basic, I would have guessed.
I am not even talking about best guess estimates of yield, O&D traffic or connecting possibilities, but just the essencials. There's really no point it discussion the bloody obvious.

[RoMax]

Bucharest was a mistake, I mean Budapest I'm sorry.

But what you are telling about my wild ideas are not true. Who was telling that JFK or Boston is not a good idea for SN itself for the first years because they need 1 plane for 1 route in that case. I start that disscussion about that 1 plane for 1 route. I don't think that is a wild idea, that is reallity. Who says that SN need to focus on AFI, together with a lot of other people, I do. Not a wild idea, just reallity. About AFI flights in the evening I don't start that disscussion but I asked if this isn't possible and I mentioned some reasons wy this could work but I never said this will work. About the flights from the US, like a second daily non stop flight from ORD and so, Ok is was wrong. But isn't that a reason why a forum exists to understand that you are wrong in some cases and to hear the opinion from other people that now more about that. About that European destinations, ok I said some stupid things, but from the very first post with this destinations I said that you don't need to beat me if I say something stupid. Is this maybe a forum for profesionnals that look daily to the timetables of SN, LH, LX and al the others? I DON'T THINK SO. It is not becaus somebody say something stupid that you need to do like he is anoying and better say nothing. But if you want so I don't say anything anymore, if I disturb you and others. This absolutbly not a nice way to do on a forum, everybody need to get the chance to say his thing, even it is something absolutly stupid for you.

[Air Key West]

I beg to disagree with fretn when saying we don't know anything about SN's future. We know a number of things, the main one being that SN is being taken over by LH and the taking over process should be completed by 2011.
That's one of a number of things we know about SN's future. Most guests on this forum will know the rest, so I won't repeat it. Of course, there remains a lot of guessing and speculation, which we like to do on this forum (which is also one of its purposes).
As to MrBoeing : nobody wants to offend you or to be agressive, but I agree with tolipanebas that you should do some basic research on aviation in general and SN in particular before joigning a forum like this, because you sound like a ten-year-old pupil wanting to be already in high school. When you talk about b.air codeshare with Malev to Bucharest, you make a basic (stupid) mistake which you easily could have avoided. If you are not sure, you make a few checks before posting something. Most aviation enthusiasts here will know Bucharest it the capital city of Romania , which is the home base of Tarom and not Malev which is based in Budapest, Hungary. Some basic knowledge of, on this forum at least European geography is needed when you discuss aviation.
So, all we're suggesting is that you do some studying, you will come over as a more credible person and it will also make you feel a lot better with additional knowledge at hand.
You also have a tendency to repeat your arguments or questions post after post. It is not by repeating things that they materialize or that you will convince others. Only by bringing possibly credible argumentation will you add something valuable to this forum. Of course, everybody is entitled to express ideas and to ask questions and occasionally to make a mistake. But not repeatedly. So, browse the internet, read a few books, do some home work and you'll feel much better yourself. And you'll realize it is even fun to do for an aviation fan. Now, let's get back on topic.

[RoMax]

If everyone thinks like that, than I say nothing anymore and you will see that I am not the only one that ask things a few times and say sometimes something stupid. If this is the way to do against people that now a bit less then others than you can bether close this forum as public and make it only usable for professional members that need to do a knowledge test before getting a password. I am active on a lot of forum's and I never there they do never like you do here, not against me and not against the most stupid guy on that forums. But after this post you will never hear me anymore, I will read this forum only and say nothing. Oh yes one more thing, when I make the mistake of Bucharest, Budapest, it is not because I don't now anything about the geography of Europe, I AM NOT STUPID, Air key West.

[taz001]

I believe BMI is still flying ERJ equipment from BRU to LHR. At the end of October, SN will put is flight number on BD flights to LHR (and BD its flight number on SN's flight to LGW). Will there be equipment changes on the BD BRU-LHR route? A319? A320?
I am also curious about the impact it will have on BA flights to LHR... anyone an idea? or even figures about the current number of pax flying BA on a SN flight number?

[Boeing747-nurse]

Some news that also will have an influence on the future of SN within te LH group:
Neelie Croes/EU Commission formaly approved AUA take-over by Lufthansa today...
And now the consolidation/reshuffle of routes,...realy can begin.
Good luck to them all!

[TWA]

If everyone thinks like that, than I say nothing anymore and you will see that I am not the only one that ask things a few times and say sometimes something stupid. If this is the way to do against people that now a bit less then others than you can bether close this forum as public and make it only usable for professional members that need to do a knowledge test before getting a password. I am active on a lot of forum's and I never there they do never like you do here, not against me and not against the most stupid guy on that forums. But after this post you will never hear me anymore, I will read this forum only and say nothing. Oh yes one more thing, when I make the mistake of Bucharest, Budapest, it is not because I don't now anything about the geography of Europe, I AM NOT STUPID, Air key West.

Dear Mr Boeing

Very wise decision to switch to read-only mode!
Before you post any more comments about SN or any other company for that matter, you should probably check your spelling and your grammar.
It's quite honestly the worst I've ever seen. You might find that people will be more likely to take you seriously if you learned to write better.

TWA

[kiwiandrew]

at the risk of taking this off topic I am a bit disappointed at the rudeness shown to a new member who only joined us two months ago . I guess the people who attacked him have never made a mistake in any of their posts and have never been new to a site . While I have not agreed with everything he has posted I dont think it is very good manners to personally attack him - could we perhaps confine our comments to the content of his posts rather than calling him unpleasant names ? As for comments about his spelling and grammar , well , I am guessing that for most posters on this site English is not their first language so perhaps we could show a little bit of tolerance - I know that if I tried to post in either Dutch or French my spelling and grammar would be very bad .

[Boeing747-nurse]

"at the risk of taking this off topic I am a bit disappointed at the rudeness shown to a new member who only joined us two months ago . I guess the people who attacked him have never made a mistake in any of their posts and have never been new to a site . While I have not agreed with everything he has posted I dont think it is very good manners to personally attack him - could we perhaps confine our comments to the content of his posts rather than calling him unpleasant names ? As for comments about his spelling and grammar , well , I am guessing that for most posters on this site English is not their first language so perhaps we could show a little bit of tolerance - I know that if I tried to post in either Dutch or French my spelling and grammar would be very bad "

I totally agree with you, kiwiandrew.

And I hope MR Boeing will continue making posts on this forum; like said several times by others; first of all, this is a forum

[itami]

Ladies and gentlemen, can we now please get back on topic ?

[BrightCedars]

I'll keep my head down because flying is at low altitude on the forum today! Relax people, and remember that every 3 seconds a child dies of hunger on this planet we call home, and yet we spend billions on feeding pets.

Back to topic, the green light for Austrian is truly good news, it probably means OS will be saved, and yes it implies a massive game of reorganization of European and extra-European traffic flows for all parties concerned i.e. LH, LHi, LX, OS and SN. Believe me when I say that we are today witnessing the creation of another European giant after the creation of the first one when Air France took over KLM. I do not involve bmi here because its fate remains uncertain and may be part of the wider world-scale game that lists participants such as BA, LH, SQ and VS to name a few obvious players.

Clearly LH will streamline its European operations around the large hubs that it now controls i.e. BRU, FRA, MUC, VIE and ZRH. The depth of integration with BD activities may reveal if LH is truly interested in keeping it for good, or just keeping it for play. A net increase in overall capacity seems highly unlikely and I expect to the contrary to see a shift in equipment between players (physical transfer or plane or virtual when a carrier operates the route instead and together with a partner) and reduction in capacity with the retirement of older and odd ball fleet types. There may still be addition of mostly regional types.

Concretely for SN, this could mean that the B737s will be doomed soon or late (these kinds of changes do not happen overnight), and that the Avro's will need to be replaced by something else.

On the longhaul it's everybody's guess what LH will and will not do. One constant being that we can expect that BRU will be the focal point for Africa service, some relevant O&D and some distant hub linking routes operated either by SN or the tier carrier, mostly depending on the cheapest cost structure between the two.
Based on this, one should expect SN to eventually operate some transatlantic routes in and out of BRU in cooperation and instead of CO or UA as to for example minimize the exchange rate risk induced by EUR/USD fluctuations. It does limit the potential for massive profiteering but any bean counter would prefer that to taking too much chances; sound CEO's will listen to this type of bean counter.

A question thrown into the unknown: do you think NH could provide some Japan-VIE-BRU service in the future? Maybe a triangular one sometimes nonstop to either VIE or BRU, sometimes to the other city? And other carriers alike? Just in a route building phase?

[kiwiandrew]

I have just been playing around on great circle mapper website with the various LH group hubs ( yes , I know , I am a tragic case ! ) and even though I do not think that SN should jump on to the North America bandwagon it did occur to me that BRU is the furthest north/west point out of the 5 hubs that the LH group will dominate ( BRU FRA MUC VIE ZRH ) which ( just to prove that I can see both sides of the case ) could potentially make it a good hub for transatlantic traffic from European points which could not justify their own transatlantic services . I still think that in the short to medium term this is likely to mean SN gaining revenue by 'collecting' these pax to feed to AC/US/CO/UA operated services rather than SN operating their own services to North America , but I have been wrong before so maybe in the long term I will be wrong about this too .

slightly off topic , but does anyone have any hints for the proposed *A joining date for SN - I hear that it is supposed to be before the end of 2009 but haven't heard anything more specific ? I wondered if the same date that Privilege switches over to M&M could be it ?

[fretn]

i've heard or read somewhere that it would be at the end of october, i even think the date that continental joins *!