The future of Brussels Airlines with Lufthansa

[HighInTheSky]

Also, the codeshare with EL AL to TLV will stop with the start of the new winter season. SN passengers booked on a EL AL flight will be rebooked on the daily SN flight or on a flight of LX or LH via MUC, FRA or ZRH.

[Shanti]

Is the expensive business class on SN european flights a success?
I wonder how many passengers book this flight and has anyone
have experience with the new business class? Thanks!

[Atlantis]

Also, the codeshare with EL AL to TLV will stop with the start of the new winter season. SN passengers booked on a EL AL flight will be rebooked on the daily SN flight or on a flight of LX or LH via MUC, FRA or ZRH.

Why would they do that? El Al is not a member of one of the three alliances. What will SN do? Stay with one flight to TLV?

Its obvious that Brussels Airlines will be a feeder airline to the German airports and not v.v. Pax will have less direct flights out of BRU.

I think that SN will loose more and more pax in this case. Other airlines at BRU will take them over. Like we have said several times, we don't have to think national but international. I choose an airline that can give me what I want.

[Atlantis]

Is the expensive business class on SN european flights a success?
I wonder how many passengers book this flight and has anyone
have experience with the new business class? Thanks!

Are you speaking about the TLV flight of SN? It is a success with sometimes overbookings.
El Al increased there flights to BRU with three flights a day. The demand is there, no question about that.

[Established02]

Is the expensive business class on SN european flights a success?

I'm not in a position to evalute the success of it, but I think this new business class does serve its purpose...
- for the connecting passengers flying business class to Africa
- for the new traffic generated by LH (and later on expectedly also by other Star Alliance partners).

Why would they do that?

I tend to think that it is LY that did not want to continue the relationship with SN, due to its alliance with LH/LX.

[Air Key West]

If b.air's TLV flights are such a success, I don't understand why they don't operate a second daily flight to TLV, instead of rerouting pax via ZRH or FRA//MUC and instead of grounding aircraft or sending them back to the lessor. I may have misunderstood, but it seems they have at least one 737 of A319 to much, why not used it for a second flight to TLV, leaving BRU, for instance around 9 am to be back around 1900 hours. The same aircraft could then fly to BEY leaving BRU around 2100 hours to be back around 7 am. There are probably operational and security constraints I am not aware of which might make it difficult to operate such daily flights, but I think it would be worthwile to explore this idea.

[Conti764]

If b.air's TLV flights are such a success, I don't understand why they don't operate a second daily flight to TLV, instead of rerouting pax via ZRH or FRA//MUC and instead of grounding aircraft or sending them back to the lessor. I may have misunderstood, but it seems they have at least one 737 of A319 to much, why not used it for a second flight to TLV, leaving BRU, for instance around 9 am to be back around 1900 hours. The same aircraft could then fly to BEY leaving BRU around 2100 hours to be back around 7 am. There are probably operational and security constraints I am not aware of which might make it difficult to operate such daily flights, but I think it would be worthwile to explore this idea.

Does the Belgium/Israel agreement allow that much flights? Remember, LY already has 9 weekly flights between TLV and BRU, they have cargo ops to LGG, JAF flies LGG to TLV and SN flies daily BRU-TLV.

Maybe they could deploy a 333 on certain days though...

[sdbelgium]

Maybe they could deploy a 333 on certain days though...

Yes, I would say this is a good idea. LX/LH deploy A330/A340 to Tel Aviv on a daily basis and SN has already done this in the past. I recall last Summer or the one before that, they used a 333 on two days of the week.

[Air Key West]

Is an A330 available to operate such flights ?

[RoMax]

No A330/A340' s are perfect for Tel Aviv, but SN need them for Africa. Only when they get a lot of A330's it is possible to fly with this airplanes to Tel Aviv.

[Conti764]

Is an A330 available to operate such flights ?

Some days of the week, yes... I regularly see one A330 standing at hangar 40 in maintenance.

[airbuske]

And also : The codeshare agreements with Jet Airways, Hainan Airlines, Etihad and Malmö Aviation will be maintained. The codeshare with American Airlines will be maintained for the moment .

[RoMax]

Is an A330 available to operate such flights ?

Some days of the week, yes... I regularly see one A330 standing at hangar 40 in maintenance.

The A330's are flying a lot and long flights, they need weekly maintenance so it is not possible to fly with this 4 A333's to Tel Aviv.

[Atlantis]

Why would they do that?

I tend to think that it is LY that did not want to continue the relationship with SN, due to its alliance with LH/LX.

If that is the case then we have an other story.

Does the Belgium/Israel agreement allow that much flights? Remember, LY already has 9 weekly flights between TLV and BRU, they have cargo ops to LGG, JAF flies LGG to TLV and SN flies daily BRU-TLV.

Maybe they could deploy a 333 on certain days though...

That was my other question. What is the billateral agreement between Belgium and Israël, in other words, how many flights are allowed? SN has a daily flight, El Al multiple a day and JAF two a week. Since JAF is operating more and more scheduled flights, it was a missed opportunity of SN to offer more own flights to TLV. El Al is now offering three flights on certain days, SN was the link to maintain the third flight on the other days.

Maybe they could deploy a 333 on certain days though...

SN did that in the past during summer. I think it was not possible this summer due to the increased number of flights to Africa.

[Air Key West]

Indeed, with JAF offering flights to TLV, too, the number of additional flights b.air could operate to TLV might be limited by traffic rights for Belgian carriers between Belgium and Israel. However, given the success of TLV flights, b.air could consider daytime flights to TLV on days where slots and traffic rights are available and use one of the grounded 737s or A319s (unless the aircraft has/have already been returned or will be soon).
I also do not understand that six BAe146s are kept on the ground. I'm not saying they should all be flying again, but especially during the summer season, a BAe146 could have been used to operate daily flights to Alicante, which is a popular destination all year round and all the more in summer. Same for Valencia.
Again, I conclude to a lack of commercial imagination with b.air, or do I have to much of it ?
I don't understand that no code share agreement has yet been set up with Star Alliance member Spanair.
Both airlines operate the same three cabins model on board their aircraft and do not compete on the same routes. Spanair can offer connections especially from BCN (but also MAD) to a number of destinations in Spain which are not served by b.air. Both airlines would benefit from it. Maybe the agreement is in the making.

[Air Key West]

To Shanti's question about the new b.air business class : I have been privileged to fly it on a number of occasions. Conclusion : rather disappointing. Insufficiant catering (we are used to this with b.air) : at lunch time : a mini starter, a main course, a dessert and Neuhaus chocolates. Plastic cutlery (nice design, though). Same limited selection of newspapers as usual : on flights to/from MAD, no Spanish newspaper available. Never a Herald Tribune. Pursers and f/a still operate on a low cost model mentality : you hardly get any additional attention in business class, unless you give a hint that you might be getting disappointed.
On the flights I have taken in business class, there were no more than three or four pax in C class. My experience was rather that f/a thought : there are only two or three C pax, no need to take them into consideration.
And on the last flight I took in C class, there was no hot meal available at lunch time because (so I was told by the purser) the flight was operated with the latest addition to the fleet, an ex-AF A319 without ovens.
Conclusion : b.air management leased an aircraft without ovens, knowing they announced (delicious !!!) hot meals even in b.flex. So, they knew they would not be able to keep their commitment towards high revenue pax. Shows again that we who often pay a lot for tickets don't count for b.air management. Same as ever.
Although fares in b.air's C class are close to those charged by LH, SN's C class on European routes has nothing in common with LH's European business class. WIll it change ?

[NCB]

Perhaps the economics of operating the Bae-146 don't make sense?
These aircraft are very hungry for money and though the summer season can bring nice high-yield markets, the cost of doing a heavy maintenance for a 1 or 2 month operation must be evaluated.

Maybe other factors such as competition? Ryanair forced SN to withdraw from Sardinia, a very high-yield market during the summer.

There is no future in shorthaul with all the LCC's, the key to SN's survival and for that matter any European legacy's survival, is the downsizing of shorthaul and focus on longhaul competition and its efficient feeding.

JFK, BOS are markets very hard to enter for SN.
Why not expand to Africa first, then try Hong Kong, Beijing, Shanghai, Singapore, Tokyo (HND prreferably)?
These are year-round destinations and though the competition is there, it is not as harsh as on the Atlantic, yields are still good enough. LH will also appreciate the extra capacity that SN would make available out of MUC and FRA, so it can fine-trim capacity.

[tolipanebas]

The Bae146s aren't operated anymore because:
-)those prepared for Air DC have been seriously upgraded (flight instrumentation and navigation systems) and can not be flown by the SN pilots without first passing a difference course and simulator training.
-) those simply withdrawn from operation are close to their C check and would have to undergo costly maintenance first before they can be used again, which is deemed not economic any more for such a short period of time.

OO-SSP is indeed an A319 with a different galley configuration than the others, because contrary to its 3 sister ships, this plane comes from Air France and was used by them on short (intra-French) routes where AF has a different catering concept (no hot meals); Because the plane lacks ovens and a full galley, it is predominantly used on shorter flights by Sn and -except in exceptional circumstances- never deployed on flights to DME or TLV for instance.

Besides, all those calling to deploy the 737s to TLV or BEY, the 737s are all ex-charter or ex-LCC planes, so they have the same problem as OO-SSP.

[Air Key West]

Thanks for the explanations, tolipanebas. So, basically, we're stuck with a lame airline. Two BAe146s are so sophisticated nobody (or practically nobody) can fly them and nobody will want them and they'll probably rust away under the Belgian rain together with their sisters which are too expensive to maintain. Add to this the 737s and one A319 that don't meet the requirements of a full service airline, plus Avrojets which swallow too much fuel and we're left with three A319s which meet the needs. Please, do correct my analysis if it is wrong. I'm always happy to learn.
In other words, let's hope and assume that now, with the ok from the EU Commission for LH to take over SN, LH is already working on b.air's fleet renewal. It seems to be urgently needed. But will SN get any new aircraft for its European operations without having to wait for five or six years ? Seems like forever to me in the current situation.

[Shanti]

to Air Key West
many thanks for the information, it's a shame that your experience was bad!
(especially for the price they ask for business class in Europe)