The future of Brussels Airlines with Lufthansa

[tolipanebas]

As expected, Brussels Airlines' FFP 'Privilege' will be replaced by LH's 'Miles & More' by the end of October this year.

I'm pretty sure it will, but I didn't recieve any info on that... Is this confirmed?

You didn't receive official information on this, because it can only be officially confirmed after the take-over gets the green light from the EU...

But once the take-over gets the green light, you may expect significant changes well before SN is STAR member or before LH get's full control over the Belgian airline: almost immediate codeshares with SAS, TAP and LH, cooperation on all fronts, FFP integration... given the depressing economic situation, there really is no time to wait till 2010-2011.

[HighInTheSky]

You didn't receive official information on this, because it can only be officially confirmed after the take-over gets the green light from the EU...

But once the take-over gets the green light, you may expect significant changes well before SN is STAR member or before LH get's full control over the Belgian airline: almost immediate codeshares with SAS, TAP and LH, cooperation on all fronts, FFP integration... given the depressing economic situation, there really is no time to wait till 2010-2011.

I was aware of all the rest, but still, February will be a very interesting month for all of us!

[sn26567]

As expected, Brussels Airlines' FFP 'Privilege' will be replaced by LH's 'Miles & More' by the end of October this year.

How can they already make such a decision when the merger deal is not yet approved by the European Commission and they are not even allowed to talk to each other?

[Air Key West]

André, I think you should see things in a more nuanced way. Companies (including airlines) which want to co-operate or to merge are allowed to talk to each other and to make a number of decisions (which could not be approved of by the EU Commission). There is only one thing, to my knowledge, which they may not do, that is talk about and agree on prices.

[HighInTheSky]

Has anybody an idea if and when the codeshares with AA, BA and AY from Oneworld and AZ from Skyteam will stop?
And ofcourse new codeshares will start, but I had expected that on the routes to the north SAS would already codeshare on us (and vice-versa) and TAP to the south.

[RoMax]

If SN really join Star Alliance this year, I think this codeshare's will stop at the end of the year. AA will fly the 763 again on the Chicago route at the end of the year, I think that is a sign that the codeshare' s with SN gone stop.

[NCB]

LH is phasing out the last 6 A300's on Wednesday.
LH has 5 or so airworthy A300R's, that could prove very handy for SN on the African routes.
The A300R has the range to operate to Kinshasa, Nairobi, Luanda with 265 pax in 2-class, the same as their actual A333's, only with more economy seats and less cargo.

Could we soon see SN operate the African destinations non-stop using A300's wet-leased from LH?

It would make sense to offer direct flights with A333's on the dense routes and use the A300's on the thinner routes and increase frequencies to daily on some important routes.

Before any routes to North America, I'd strongly consider routes to Asia.
Hong Kong, Shanghai, Beijing,Tokyo, Bangkok are must do destinations.
China-Africa links are very crucial for short to long term development.

Brussels Airport has too many carriers flying to North America but only one flying to Asia (Hainan).

[cathay belgium]

Hi,

A300? for SN!
I hope not, I wanted to see some new planes in the fleet ,not some old crap!
Let the A300 been sold for hewabora to fly for FIH
If LH wants to improve the fleet mt tought were A330/A340 and maybe B747,
that sounds nice !! not A300!
Oh shi*,the germans with their effenciency!
Ciao,CX-B

[jan_olieslagers]

You can wish and dream as you like, CX-B, that is not going to have much effect on what actually happens. For myself I largely prefer A300's over nothing: it is more than time for SN to expand its presence on the African market. The choice of plane is a minor concern, given correct maintenance for safety and reliability.

As for German efficiency: would you have preferred a take-over by a company less efficient? Say Alitalia or Olympic or so? I think SN was acquired by the best candidate one could wish for!

But to remain on subject: are LH phasing the A300's out of their own company, or out of the whole group? The latter would make more sense to me, but I am not an expert on airline fleet management...

[RoMax]

The last A300 wil leave the LH fleet next mond i think, but I don't now what their plans are with these plains. The A300 in SN's fleet is better than nothing and is more possible than an A330/A340 this year, next year is an other thing.
But most of this A300 are really old, is it a good idea to give SN such planes that uses a lot of fuel?

[cathay belgium]

Hi,

Jan,

Whishing and dreaming or still free these days so don't stop!,but..

Why should we be happy with some old A300,that even Sabena fased out so many years ago?
Off course that they should expand their ,specialty of the group, African market but why A300.
I think that getting some old fuel consumating A300 accepting now is even as smart as
changing a whole fleet into airbus so as their father SN did so many years ago.
I think that in these days with all the airline bankrupties of lost months their should be a lot of
better planes on the market such as some older A330, B767 or even an MD11.
I think such one should better improve their fleet on those special african markets.
A300 just sounds cargo for me these days. ( did the Belgian Army not fased out an old singapore A300,
long before they have plans for selling their A310 into a leased 767 of JAF ??? thet's my point )

Maybe they can have help of JAF! Haha they found an 767 in better shape.

But I think the A300's will never arrives as I read on this topic before they should make first deals for the 737's!

For the Germans..
I think you try to make fun of me talking about AZ/OA?
The're gone also just like SN !
But for my opinion and heart AF/KL was a better fix!
We are right in middle of these states,we're right in the middle of their mind of thinking and economics
(like it or not) and the only malfunction was that BRU is in the middle of AMS/CDG,
but I strongly believe that this could be a strength in the future.
for exemple..(SN africa,AF US/Americas and KL asia with better feeding hubs).
But is LH a bad deal,I don't think so.. LH was as always one of the leading airlines in europe!!
(such as BA )

Swiss looked also a very good deal in the beginning,but time will tell.

But my opinion doesn't matter,even yours haha..
I'm far from an expert but this is my view!
There is just one rule in aviation ,money ! ( how sad this also sounds..)
FR proofed it!
Aviation is a business like any other business and money is the rule!

Ciao,CX-B

[jan_olieslagers]

But for my opinion and heart AF/KL was a better fix!

Wait and see what they do to VLM over the coming months/years. I hope for the best but fear the worst.

[NCB]

A300's aren't that bad. While being 4 meters shorter than A332's, they are 30 tons lighter.
MX is a bit more expensive but low ownership costs and slightly lower fuel consumption make of it a very reasonable aircraft.
The LH A300R's are younger than 20 years, some even younger than the older SN A333.

Of course SN will get a fleet of longhaul aircraft in the long run.
But in the immediate, SN needs to get its hands on any longhaul capacity available at an affordable price, and seen that LH doesn't need the A300's, they could charge for mx, crew and a symbolic amount (for instance 80% below market rate) for the aircraft. That way LH can keep about 150 German crews rotating at BRU (through HAM, FRA or MUC) while getting rid of the excess capacity and earning some money.

SN can expand to Africa and double the capacity, maybe switch some A333's to Asia.

As someone pointed out, the lower capacity A300R's could prove to be a better option to serve the African routes non-stop. A bigger longhaul capacity means more traffic to Africa means more feeding passengers means higher load factors in the regional/shorthaul fleet.
If that works out well, LH will without doubt order new longhaul aircraft for SN.

One more thing: LH has been waiting to finalise all the mergers with SN, BD and OS prior to making an order for A350XWB/(less likely)B787. That way they could estimate exactly how many aircraft they need to order. Basically that means that SN could see some A350XWB's in the distant future (my estimate 8+years from now).
Airbus will surely enforce their A330's-while-waiting-for-the-A350 policy and give away some cheap A330's to LH, so that SN, BD, OS can benefit .

[euroflyer]

LH's A300-600 are quite nice aircraft, from the pax point of view VERY comfortable. They have been used mainly on domestic routes (FRA-TXL, FRA-MUC, FRA-HAM) and on some short and medium-haul routes like Moscow, Athens, Istanbul, Cairo, Rome, LHR or CDG from FRA and MUC. They had been refurbished only about 2 (?) years ago with real business class seats for the first 20 rows or so (2-2-2) and new eco seats (2-4-2) as well. So I guess the original plans of LH were to use them for quite a big longer. So they should still be "ok" from the LH perspective to fly around. However, given the changed economic situation they obviously need less planes and than it was the best option to phase out the relatively small number of A300s and instead to use A321s on those routes mentioned above. The first group of A300s had been taken out of service already in autumn 2008 if I am correct, some of those I still saw stored in Dresden some weeks ago (are they converted in freighters there?).

Where I am not sure is the point if LH is prepared to increase the number of planes at SN in the current economic situation at all It does not feel like the right time to come up with proposals for new routes, higher frequencies, etcetera. Most airlines are happy if they can manage to keep as many of there routes they have at the moment as possible and do not open up new ones. So I guess LH might be very cautious. And that would mean in turn that the A300s might have been sold or converted before SN gets the chance to discuss with LH which new planes they get ...

But that are just my thoughts ...

[NCB]

Actually SN is doing pretty well on Africa and if there's anywhere SN should be focusing on, it would be Africa.
Africa is pretty much recession-proof on both cargo/pax, the even bigger loss-maker in these times is the European network.
It would be in SN's interest to immediately expand service to Africa, in order to lighten the burden on the European network so that both networks can complement one another.

I don't say 5-6 aircraft by next week, but a A300 in August, another one in September and another one in October/November, some more during the winter-spring could really work for SN. LH and SN liveries are not much different, I'd just paint the B-tail on them, swap the LH titles and off they go.

[cathay belgium]

or just put a silver mark'brussels' after the LH signs
CX-B

[summersso]

LH's A300-600 are quite nice aircraft, from the pax point of view VERY comfortable. The

Absolutely agree Euroflyer - I flew from FRA-ATH on an A300-600 in April, first economy row window seat, great leg room, comfortable seat, nice clean renovated and relatively quiet cabin environment. All in all very impressed with the aircraft and disappointed to see them leaving LH. And I think they'd make a great addition to the SN fleet. But surely the A330 cabins would need a refit and for PTV to be installed if SN is serious about launching long-haul ops to the US or Asia? Are there any plans in the pipeline to do this?

[cnc]

didn't LH ground some A340's ?
and with the A380 and 748i joining the fleet in the future i might see LH station the A340's permanent with other airlines from the group so why not SN

[HighInTheSky]

didn't LH ground some A340's ?

1 A346 and 1 B744. Both a bit to big for us in my opinion...
The A343 's they grounded was due to the fact they were sold to the German Airforce.

[Conti764]

I don't understand why SN doesn't consider using Boeings again? When SN was a small, independent company where each cent mattered, I could see the relevance of concentrating around one airplane supplier. But with LH backing them up and in the future owning them fully, this shouldn't be much of a problem anymore. I can see both the 757-300 (with the recent popularity of an upgraded 757-200W this type is more difficult to find) and the 767-200/300 (ER) be efficient on their African ops. The A333 is actually a little too big to do the majority of the AFI operations for SN throughout the most of the year and thus the proposed a/c would be more economical (even more so since SN's 333's aren't the youngest around). The A332 would be a good option as well, but these are harder to find given their popularity.