At Least 141 Die In Egypt Plane Crash.

[OO-SBZ]

I suppose the swiss NAA regulations are tighter than in the other countries then
Else everybody would have said NO to them. ciao, TriStar

Facts TriStar, facts.... you emit a supposition....

Anoter fact to add to this case...

In the same year 2002 a group of Italian tourits could already experience an emergency landing in Greece after a huge "bang" coming from one of the engine of a Flash Boeing 737...

BeN

[OO-SBZ]

This is the plane that crashed yesterday in the red sea: SU-ZCD


Ciao
Chris

Thanks to the report on EuroNews, I could spot the number of the 733 which had to do an emergency landing in Athens: SU-ZCD.

Braathens did some MX on the aircraft some 13 months ago and considered it as in a good shape. Braathens can't state on the engines, didn't touch them.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread ... genumber=6

[Danny]

France sends robot, warship to search for Egyptian plane, 148 bodies






SHARM EL-SHEIKH, Egypt : France sent a submarine robot and a warship to join an Egyptian-led search for the remains of a Paris-bound plane that plunged into Red Sea waters 300 meters deep, killing all 148 aboard.

French DNA experts were also being dispatched to the area to help in the gruesome task of identifying 60 body parts that have so far been recovered from the sea off the resort of Sharm el-Sheikh where the charter plane crashed before dawn on Saturday.



Egyptian police closed a popular tourist bay on Sunday to all vessels other than those involved in the search. Absent were the usual windsurfers, snorkelers and pleasure boaters.

French naval attache Commander Xavier de Sontenay said the submarine robot arrived Sunday and was already operating in the crash area.

He added that the robot was designed to operate at the depths of 300 meters (1,000 feet) where Egyptian officials expected to find the plane's fuselage.

De Sontenay said a radar-equipped frigate, the Tourville, was also heading north from a French naval base in Djibouti to help search for the plane's black box flight data recorders.


- AFP

[Danny]

The actual name is :


Xavier de Fontenay.


www.channelnewsasia.com spelt it incorrectly.

[SN30952]

The actual name is: Xavier de Fontenay. www.channelnewsasia.com spelt it incorrectly.

You can edit, Danny.. Edit

[SN30952]

I suppose the swiss NAA regulations are tighter than in the other countries then
Else everybody would have said NO to them. ciao, TriStar

Facts TriStar, facts.... you emit a supposition....

Another fact to add to this case...

In the same year 2002 a group of Italian tourits could already experience an emergency landing in Greece after a huge "bang" coming from one of the engine of a Flash Boeing 737...

BeN

[Comet]

From what I have read about this airline in the UK media, I think their aircraft should have been grounded long ago. The fact that the Swiss banned this airline owing to safety concerns after an emergency landing sends out a clear message. They only had two aircraft. They were not old aircraft particularly. Now 50% of their fleet has crashed, that is an appalling safety record! I think that decisions such as the one made by the Swiss should be internationally enforced to prevent such carriers from operating. If it had have been the case, then 140+ people would still be alive today.

[Avro]

Everybody? Flash was not coming to Belgium? Netherlands? Danmark? Sweden? Germany? All big 'producers' of traffic to the Red Sea area...

Well flash did come to Germany, there is even a picture of one of the B737's in Düsseldorf.

I've also heard this morning that France never did a check on the Flash Airlines plane like Switzerland did. In addition to that they probably "ignored" the ban of Switzerland.

Other interesting fact is that Flash Airlines has said that the problem with Switzerland was a financial one and not technical

I hardly believe that Switzerland would ban an airline because of financial problems

Who tells the truth

Regards
Chris

[Avro]

Fons,

I've looked on A.net and found the following:

SU-ZCD in Düsseldorf
SU-ZCD in Frankfurt

SU-ZCD in GENEVA.
Was this the emergency landing done in Switzerland or not? itherwise the ban wouldn't have been respected

Chris
8)

[A318]

Anoter fact to add to this case...

In the same year 2002 a group of Italian tourits could already experience an emergency landing in Greece after a huge "bang" coming from one of the engine of a Flash Boeing 737...
BeN

Just found another fact:
One of Flash 737 had an emergency landing at Geneva Airport beginning of 2003 (despite it was banned from Swiss airspace), following the one in Athens (end of 2002).

Now it is getting really suspicious!

Erwin

[sn26567]

SU-ZCD in GENEVA.
Was this the emergency landing done in Switzerland or not? itherwise the ban wouldn't have been respected

Chris, you did not read the latest news: https://www.aviation24.be/article2685.html

[Avro]

From what you are telling us Erwin this would confirm that the pic that I've found on A.net is the one of the emergency landing at Geneva.

It's very strange that on both emergencies the plane was SU-ZCD the one that crashed in the red sea. It seems that the plane had some problems , or was it just a coincidence?

Ciao
Chris
8)

[Avro]

SU-ZCD in GENEVA.
Was this the emergency landing done in Switzerland or not? itherwise the ban wouldn't have been respected

Chris, you did not read the latest news: https://www.aviation24.be/article2685.html

OOPS I'm sorry André, but I'm in a hurry because I have a lecture in 10 minutes I'll pay more attention next time

Chris

[sn26567]

I've also heard this morning that France never did a check on the Flash Airlines plane like Switzerland did.

Chris, you read French, don't you?

PARIS (Reuters) - Après le signalement de la compagnie aérienne Flash Airlines par les autorités aériennes helvétiques, la France a procédé à trois contrôles qui n'ont donné lieu "à aucune remarque particulière", a déclaré Gilles de Robien, deux jours après le crash en mer Rouge.

La Suisse a fait part de "contrôles pas satisfaisants à un moment donné" et la France a "aussitôt a fait trois contrôles sur Flash Airlines pour voir si la compagnie avait rectifié sa position, avait tout simplement tenu compte des contrôles suisses", a expliqué le ministre des Transports sur France Inter.

Après le premier contrôle, il subsistait des "petites réserves", notamment "sur des questions de marquage défaillant d'une issue" de secours, a-t-il poursuivi.

"On m'a dit qu'aussitôt après, il y a eu deux autres contrôles. Les contrôles suivants n'ont donné lieu à aucune remarque. C'est la raison pour laquelle l'aviation civile française, avec la technique qu'on lui reconnaît internationalement, a laissé voler ces avions", a-t-il déclaré.

"D'autres pays ont contrôlé (...) les avions de Flash Airlines et ont abouti au même résultat que la France, c'est-à-dire qu'il n'y avait pas de remarque particulière à faire".

"Je vous rappelle que toujours les compagnies sont sous le contrôle premier du pays, de l'Etat dans lequel ils sont immatriculés", a souligné le ministre.

"Nous estimons que l'aviation civile en France fait des contrôles en très grand nombre (...) Cela ne nous empêche pas d'être toujours meilleurs et de faire toujours plus de contrôles (...) Je crois qu'il n'y aura jamais assez de sûreté dans tous les transports en commun en général dans les avions en particulier".

Deux jours après le crash, qui a fait 148 morts dont 133 Français, la polémique s'est engagée lundi sur le niveau de sécurité des compagnies charters par rapport aux compagnies aériennes régulières.

Selon le ministre des Transports, "les normes sont les mêmes pour tout le monde mais peut-être qu'il y a encore plus de contrôles pour les compagnies charter".

"Le niveau technique est le même pour tout le monde mais c'est vrai qu'il peut y avoir des économies sur le service, sur la qualité (de la restauration)" dans les compagnies à bas prix, a-t-il reconnu.

[A318]

From what you are telling us Erwin this would confirm that the pic that I've found on A.net is the one of the emergency landing at Geneva.

It's very strange that on both emergencies the plane was SU-ZCD the one that crashed in the red sea. It seems that the plane had some problems , or was it just a coincidence?

Ciao
Chris
8)

I don't know that Chris, I got the info from the link mentioned earlier in this topic:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread ... genumber=6

Greetz,

Erwin

[Badabing]

2 thoughts bother me here...

- I heard that the swiss problems with Flash are about the (lack of) payment on certain handling invoices, not safety-related. Has anyone seen solid and funded information on the true nature of the issues between Switzerland and the carrier? Even so, there's a lot of guesswork going around, and it doesnt seem to bother press to write just about anything because "another newspaper claims that..." without checking their sources. I know, new year period, many people are hard to reach. But still...

- If the remains of the airframe and black box are beyond reach, what tools do the Egypt authorities use to so fiercely and quickly exclude foul play as the cause of this tragedy ?

[Avro]

Chris, you read French, don't you?

Well I do André, but I heard that they didn't performed any checks on the radio this morning. Anyway I guess they were wrong, or it was maybe me that was still sleeping

Ciao
Chris
8)

[Danny]

Too Soon to Dismiss Terror as Cause of Egyptian Air Disaster

DEBKAfile Special Analysis

January 3, 2004, 8:20 PM (GMT+02:00)





Hours after an privately chartered Egyptian airplane crashed in the Red Sea at 04.44 local time on Saturday, January 3, just after takeoff from Sharm el-Sheikh, French Justice Minister Dominique Perben asked prosecutors to open a preliminary inquiry for manslaughter. The justice ministry in Paris said tactfully that the manslaughter inquiry “does not prejudge in any way the causes of the catastrophe,” but provides a legal framework for a joint French-Egyptian investigation.

There were no survivors of the 148 people aboard the plane, 13 of whom were crew and most of the others French tourists with their families, bound for Charles de Gaulle after a refueling stop at Cairo.

The Egyptians claimed that the crash of a Boeing 737, operated by the Egyptian company Flash Airlines, was “absolutely not the result of a terrorist act but is linked to a technical failure of the plane. DEBKAfile’s aviation experts say the investigators will be called upon to consider a host of anomalies and enigmas before they reach any such definite conclusion.

1. Was it a coincidence that the disaster occurred amid the heightened aviation alert that led to the cancellation of seven US-bound flights in the week from Christmas to January 2?

2. Updated intelligence reports have revealed one or more trained al Qaeda pilots penetrating international airlines in the Middle East or Europe and standing by for a chance – or an order - to hijack a passenger airliner.

3. Suggestively, the Egyptian plane vanished abruptly from radar screens before the air crew had a chance to send out a distress call or any other signal. It looked very much as though the craft had plummeted into the sea too suddenly for any warnings; it may even have exploded in midair before dropping into the water. In that case, the cause of the explosion would have to be investigated. An eyewitness said people heard a very loud noise at the time of the crash.

4. The stricken aircraft plunged down very close to the Sinai coast opposite the shore of Saudi Arabia. Yet, several hours after the disaster, no survivors had surfaced – as normally happens when a complete craft plunges into deep water - and no large wing sections or pieces of fuselage, as would normally have been expected - only small pieces of wreckage and tens of body parts. Floating bits of debris and personal possessions were clearly visible from Naama Bay half a mile from the rescue area.

5. The Egyptian assertion of a mechanical fault does not quite accord with the initial response from French transport minister Dominique Busserau who said: “The plane had a problem after take-off and then tried to turn and it was at that minute that it apparently crashed.” However, Egyptian aviation sources say the plane was maintained regularly in Norway and there was no sign of any mechanical fault before its last flight.

6. Another odd feature of the episode is the unusual lack of response from the Saudi, Israeli, Jordanian air forces and the American warships cruising in the Tiran Straits and the Red Sea. In an exceptionally tense time, when all military electronic instruments in the region, including those of the Egyptian air force, are most certainly at peak vigilance for al Qaeda-piloted intruders, the plunging Egyptian airliner must have appeared on all their radar screens from the moment of its take-off. Because of its situation close to Jordan and Israel and opposite the big northern Saudi air base at Tubuk on the Jordanian frontier, Sharm el-Sheik is one of the most sensitive corners in the world. Why has no word come in from anyone around it?

7. The Sharm el-Sheikh air disaster recalls the last Egyptian air disaster in 1999 when EgyptAir’s 990 Boeing 767 crashed opposite the American coast of Massachusetts shortly after takeoff, killing all 217 aboard. At the time, the Egyptian authorities attributed the disaster to unusual atmospheric conditions on the East Coast, a claim never confirmed by US authorities. In a subsequent federal probe, US aviation authorities established that the co-pilot, Jamil Batouty, who was not supposed to be on duty at the time, took over the controls and put the plane into a sharp nosedive shouting Allah is Great! in Arabic.

DEBKAfile’s counter-terror sources reported then that a large group of Egyptian air force officers were aboard, flying home from counter-terror combat and fighter jets courses in the United States. Our sources learned that Batouty has been assigned by his known Egyptian Jihad Islami connections in Los Angels and Cairo to carry out a kamikaze mission to destroy this group.

8. British prime minister Tony Blair was vacationing at the Sharm el-Sheikh resort with his wife and four children. The day of the crash was supposed to be the last day of his end-of-year holiday. From the moment the disaster was reported, no word was released about their whereabouts. If the Air Flash charter tragedy was indeed staged by al Qaeda to coincide with the Blair family’s presence at the Sinai resort, it would be further evidence of the terrorist group’s audacity and intelligence prowess.

[L-1011]

Only time will tell


I personally think that as most of the times it is extremely probable to have many small errors/defects/bud luck situations added up which caused this crash.

This evening TF1 (n°1 french TV channel (private)) reported during 25 minutes about aviation and more particularly about this crahs.

They told the stories of whole families who died in this crash. One family of 11 (grandparents up to grandchildren) was aboard, only one of their family was in france because of professional reasons. This reminds us of the dramatic familial situations posed by such a disaster.

After that they made a very good report about airliner safety, explaining how charters are able to have low prices without sacrificing safety, and even talked during 5min about tha safety of aviation in comparison with the train and the car:

In France every year

~15 people die through train accidents
~36 people die through plane accidents
~8000 people die through car accidents

And if you consider those numbers related to the mileages of the different modes of transportation, the train and plane are close first and second , with the car being 50 times more unsafe .

ciao,
TriStar

[SN30952]

Due mesi fa Parigi aveva autorizzato l'aereo a volare
Two months ago France had inspected two Boeings 737 of Flash Airlines and had given the free way to the flight.
The inspection had been recorded in the Safa-data bank and had replaced the warning inserted from Switzerland a year ago. Just in order to clear the procedure from the responsible European authorities the prosecuting attorney of Venice has started an inquiry and has ordered the seizure of all the regarding documentation.
There are diametrically opposing conclusions from the Swiss inspectors and those French on the Flash aircraft. The Ufac (the federal Office of Swiss aviation) renders publics that all the European Countries, incuding Italy, had been informed on the outcome of the controls. "we have found out in the data bank - the president of Enac Vito Riggio admits - but I confirm that to the date, that there were no reasons for prohibiting flights of that company".

The Swiss conclusions: A so-called "ramp inspection" was carried out the April 27 and October 11, 2002. "there were gaps in the maintenance of the engines - the Ufac declares -, of the commands and the landing gear.
The necessary navigation documentation lacked and the measurement system of the tanks (to measure the fuel) did not correspond to the international standards, while the emergency escapes signalisation was partially out of service ".
The Egyptian minister immediately answered. "Switzerland had some reservations - but maintenance operations were immediately carried out so on October 11, 2002 our aircraft took off from Zurich with 148 persons and an other left from the same port of call a month after with 145 passengers".
The 737 had left from Venice at 22:35 of Friday, January02, 2004, with a group of 148 Italian tourists, they disembarked in Sharm. From there the 737 took off after an hour. The magistrates want to assess if that could have provoked the technical problems. Beyond examining the technical documents, they have asked explanations from the responsible airport authorities and the Enac.
If the European directive already had been in vigor, the disaster could have been avoided, the Italian newspaper says.
Anybody has the text of this directive?.