Cargo B moves to LGG

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Megaman
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Re: Cargo B moves to LGG

Post by Megaman »

So, again, explain to me why twenty years ago this wasn't an issue, even when back in those days planes were far more noisy and were much more poluting then the modern airliners which fly into BRU today?
I don't know facts about the airport 20 years ago. I was in the US at that time and probably too small before. But I think this is mainly about night travel isn't it? I think this became mainly an issue with the DHL development which was at a peak a few years ago. If a site suits night Cargo flights better (less disruptions, less congestions, etc.) why not chose that site?

And again the politicians of today lack of vision. (I'm not Bitching, I'm just saying a lot of them don't see further than their belly button and this kind of attitude is getting no one no where. Without a strong federal state which imposes investments and rules based on the greater good, this country and BRU, Zaventem, brussels international or whatever is going to suffer further.)
Well, wouldn't it be fair to state that when jobs are starting to dissapear at BRU, it have to be French speaking employees who go first?
You're joking right?
Second, you don't know if the Walloon government has something to do with the move from Cargo B to LGG. I they, in some way, provide the same backing they did with Ryanair at CRL, then it is about politics and then it is fair to say that the Flemish government finally has to start countering these moves.
and everyone will loose.

Super Baloo
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Re: Cargo B moves to LGG

Post by Super Baloo »

@Conti

I don't decide what topic should be discussed or not. I express my personal opinion which is that I think you miss the point speaking only about politics in this matter.
As far as I'm concerned, you can talk about politics all night on this forum, I will always read it but I don't think it is the main issue (once again, personal opinion).
I'm truly sorry to read that in 37 posts, none of them actually talked about operationnal issues regarding this move. When I visit aviation forum, I prefer to read about such things then about politics which I think is not really relevant in this case.

I do believe that Cargo B is a private company (even with some public shareholders) and that they act for the best of there employees and shareholders. R
Ryanair deal was (or is) a shame legally speaking. I don't think LGG offered the same stuffs to Cargo B. I think they just offer what they have to propose (which is iMHO far enough), operationnal flexibility (no slots - open 24/7 - short taxi time, etc), professional staff (like in BRU - no gap between the two) and cheap fees (which they offer to everybody flying overthere (6,5€/tons*MTOW for landing and no take off fees, or something like that).
LGG airport is very well managed and they have an agressive commercial policy (which is succesful for the moment). It is good for them. Maybe the wheel will turn the other way someday (who knows?).

Once again, Belgium is not an island and airlines (especially cargo) are certainly global carriers. All the north European airports are in close competition and if LGG won this time, maybe CGN, AMS or even BRU will win next time.
I think that airport management and operational professionalism are far more important nowadays than intra-belgium politics.

(Once again: Can somebody tell me who will be the handler in LGG ? Thank you very much)

flightlover
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Re: Cargo B moves to LGG

Post by flightlover »

jan_olieslagers wrote: As for France annexing Wallonia: if ever they want it (which I doubt) it will certainly not be for its airports. Northern France has enough underused airports for itself (Lille, Metz-Nancy, Calais-Dunkirk, ...) So that part of your message is utter nonsense, indeed.
What do you think France would say if Wallonia would ask to join France without a growing economy? -> NO

So right now they are making sure France get's some interest in Wallonia.

And not only this way I suspect. The French are buying important belgian companies. They already have our electricity (Electrabel)and one of our largest banks (Fortis which HAD to be sold to Paris Bas) and those are just recent cases.

Do we really want them to take it all before belgium dies?

But still this is my cent

I just hope it is wrong, but we'll see in a few years

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Conti764
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Re: Cargo B moves to LGG

Post by Conti764 »

Megaman wrote: I don't know facts about the airport 20 years ago. I was in the US at that time and probably too small before. But I think this is mainly about night travel isn't it? I think this became mainly an issue with the DHL development which was at a peak a few years ago. If a site suits night Cargo flights better (less disruptions, less congestions, etc.) why not chose that site?
If the DHL night flights really were the reason for Brussels to paly tough games, there is no reason left to do so. If they agree with the Flemish in such way an agreement is satisfactory for both, BRU can grow without causing too much disruption in Brussels. But if you look at the way Flemish and Dutch speaking overall are treated in Brussels, this is not an option.

Once again, I do not blame Cargo B for searching better options, nor do I blame LGG for looking for more customers, but I see a disturbing evolution of French speaking politicians luring away as much aviation bussenis from Flanders as possible and it's an evolution that is going on for some time now.
And this evolution has been made possible, mainly due to two reasons:

1) Making aviation bussenis at Flanders main airport more and more difficult (Brussels region)
2) Giving some form of aid to encourage companies to move ops from BRU to either LGG or CRL.

The second is not such a big problem to me, but I have more difficulties accepting the first one. If this is the way Walloonia wants to play, then Flanders should play along.
You're joking right?
Why? People on this forum state that it's a good thing jobs stay in Belgium, but that's irrelevant. People prefer working in their own region and if jobs are lost because the Walloon government encourages companies to shift operations from BRU to LGG or CRL, it is my opinion that the first employment which is lost due to such a move, should be walloon jobs so they can go and work at LGG or CRL, in their own region and the Dutch speaking staff can stay at 'Flemish' BRU.
and everyone will loose.
Right now only Flanders is loosing. There are huge investments being done at Brucargo to modernise the infrastructure and give customers a better package. B-cargo is het first one to move a sizeable operation to LGG. Who is going to follow? Singapore?
Other, even bigger investments are done to make the airport better in reach for everyone. But what's the point of such investment if the concurrence (which CRL and LGG de facto are) is lurring away as much bussenis as possible with support of the Wallon government?

Now, it is my opinion BRU should be more of a pax orientated airport, in stead of a cargo airport, but it is cargo that brings in much money and allows the airport authorities to modernise the entire airport and give their customers a better solution for their operations. Now, for one, if Cargo B effectively goes to LGG, the government should get rid of their stake in the company and instead invest it in Brussels Airlines, Jetairfly or other Belgian carriers which have BRU as home base.

Acid-drop
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Re: Cargo B moves to LGG

Post by Acid-drop »

You don't like when wallonia is winning, do you ?
You are part of the people that complain about unemployement in the southern part of the country but in the same time do everything to keep it like that, i guess ?

This topic is not even about Cargo-B anymore

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Conti764
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Re: Cargo B moves to LGG

Post by Conti764 »

Acid-drop wrote:You don't like when wallonia is winning, do you ?
You are part of the people that complain about unemployement in the southern part of the country but in the same time do everything to keep it like that, i guess ?

This topic is not even about Cargo-B anymore
Talking about being shortsighted... :roll:

Walloonia may win whatever it wants, as far as I'm concerned, but not on the expense of Flanders, and by on one side imposing unreasonable conditions for BRU and on the other hand attract companies to do bussenis in Wallonia by giving them some form of aid, the politics in your region is delibirately harming Flanders for their own gain. And even with that I have no problem, as long as Flanders will do its very best to keep as much aviation bussenis in BRU as possible.

By the way, I have no problem with employment raising in Walloonia. On the other hand, I chear such developments. If you want to know my problems with Walloon politics, we can always discuss this, but then we would really go offtopic. Feel free to PM me about my dislikes against Walloonia politics (and see it clear: I write politics, not people before you start nagging about that).

Megaman
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Re: Cargo B moves to LGG

Post by Megaman »

Let's hope CargoB can expand rapidly. :D

Acid-drop
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Re: Cargo B moves to LGG

Post by Acid-drop »

I'm sure that at the end we agree because I don't like too much walloon politics either. Anyway, airports aside, everything seems to work better in Flanders anyway, so let us keep this joy ;)
the politics in your region is delibirately harming Flanders for their own gain.
I don't believe in that, sorry. From here, it looks exactly the other way...

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Atlantis
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Re: Cargo B moves to LGG

Post by Atlantis »

an-148 wrote:do they still fly to South America ? if yes, that could also have another reason than the "always put in the foreground political one":
Yes, Cargo B is operating 3 weekly flights to South America. By the end of next week, 17.05, they will start flying again to Africa. Africa was their first continent but they pulled out very quickly.

We might don't forget that Singapore Airlines Cargo is also flying one weekly cargo flight to, almost, the same destinations as Cargo B in South America.


Cargo B wasn't expecting this battle. Also VOKA is now involved. There is at this moment a lot of communication between all parties and the CEO's were at Brucargo today.

With all respect to the members contribution in this topic but if you are not in the aviation business you can't understand what the consequences are when a homecarrier like Cargo B moved away their ops to an other airport. I don't speak only about the loss of jobs, but about a lot more other things.

This is not over yet.

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Atlantis
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Re: Cargo B moves to LGG

Post by Atlantis »

Megaman wrote:Let's hope CargoB can expand rapidly. :D
Hmmm, and who will pay for that? Cargo B? Have you seen their bookkeeping? What after the 20 million euro they got from their investors? Less half of that amount is already gone.

They are doing fine on the route to South America. Let do them the same to Africa and then we can talk again.

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Atlantis
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Re: Cargo B moves to LGG

Post by Atlantis »

Super Baloo wrote:Once again: Can somebody tell me who will be the handler in LGG ? Thank you very much)
That's not the discussion at this moment. First they have to sign a contract with the airport. The handlers can put an offer after that.


Just a remark: why attract carriers from an other Belgian airport instead of searching by their own some carriers? The aviation development of Brussels Airport is doing bay by day a wonderfull job for looking and attracting new carriers to Brussels Airport. Why can't CRL or LGG do that?



An other remark about the questions: why not looking at OST? Well OST is not very well located. BRU is in the middle of the country and has all motorways for trucking their goods to/from the airport and in a very short distance to their customers.

Acid-drop
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Re: Cargo B moves to LGG

Post by Acid-drop »

Just a remark: why attract carriers from an other Belgian airport instead of searching by their own some carriers? The aviation development of Brussels Airport is doing bay by day a wonderfull job for looking and attracting new carriers to Brussels Airport. Why can't CRL or LGG do that?
That looks like a very fast conclusion driven by frustration. Are you certain that LGG has something to do in this ? From the interview of Cargo-B boss today, it is clear that he NEEDED to look for an alternative airport. Many people already said in the previous post, this decision is logical ...
Are you blaming CRL and LGG to be just better/cheaper/more flexible in some case ? :?
BRU is in the middle of the country and has all motorways for trucking their goods to/from the airport and in a very short distance to their customers.
Yes. So is Liège without the congestion. That's why it works I guess.

Anyway, it's a bit too early to say anything.

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Atlantis
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Re: Cargo B moves to LGG

Post by Atlantis »

Acid-drop wrote:
Just a remark: why attract carriers from an other Belgian airport instead of searching by their own some carriers? The aviation development of Brussels Airport is doing bay by day a wonderfull job for looking and attracting new carriers to Brussels Airport. Why can't CRL or LGG do that?
That looks like a very fast conclusion driven by frustration. Are you certain that LGG has something to do in this ? From the interview of Cargo-B boss today, it is clear that he NEEDED to look for an alternative airport.
It is a conclusion that I made long time ago. We don't see many new carriers at LGG or CRL. Only the excisting carriers develop their presence.

My question is: why don't they have their own staff looking for new carriers (who are not flying to Belgium at this time) and this for pax and cargo.
Taking away carriers from an other Belgian airport is easy when you have the money and the political approval.
Attracting a whole new carrier makes you proud. Just my vision.
Acid-drop wrote:[Many people already said in the previous post, this decision is logical ...


Which decision?? The real decision is vage at this moment. Many people on this forum can say a lot of things but they are not involved in the case, so its based on speculations. And of course LGG and CRL are cheaper, we all know that, but that's typical for that kind of airports (LC and cargo).
The second question you can ask: IF the noise restrictions be the case for the move to LGG why didn't they start up in 2007 at LGG directly? They only transport cargo and LGG is a cargo airport so it would be normal to start overthere. Of couse Flanders is participating 25% in this case. They took note about the news and are now negociate what actions they will take.
All carriers at Brussels Airport knew that there are restrictions. And as far as I know the plans, they still can depart at 21h. The new restrictions will begin from 23h.

Super Baloo
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Re: Cargo B moves to LGG

Post by Super Baloo »

New carrier in LGG : El Al (from Amsterdam and Luxembourg) and Ukraine International. This is maybe not so many but it is a beginning.
Ethiopian went there for ops flexibility. Without curfew, they would have stayed in BRU.

Why did Cargo B not begin in LGG ? Only their management can answer this question. But on those tough times for all of us in the airline industry, it is quite normal to seek any solution to survive. And cheapest fees and operational flexibility are ways to survive.
Will Cargo B live long enough to see 2010 ? I hope for them but I don't know. The move to LGG may not be definitive and they can come back one day to BRU. But if they go bankrupt, they will never come back.
I fear that 2009-2010 will be deaths years for too many cargo airlines (especially for the young ones which don't have enough money to loose till the better days). To pay less landing fees and stop paying delays penalties for cancelled flights due to curfew might help this airline to survive.
By moving to LGG, you stay close to the flower exchange in Amsterdam (ground business northbound for Cargo B) and you get closer to the German export market (even if it is shrinking for the moment) for South America and Africa. This move might been wise for the moment.

I really wish Cargo B the best for those tough times.
And for public money, if Cargo B goes bankrupt, the Flemish money is gonna be gone. If they survive by moving to LGG, then the Flemish tax payer is safe.
Wait for the crisis to be gone and Cargo B to be assured to live for a long time and restart to talk about regional pride. For now on, let's just hope they survive.

Acid-drop
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Re: Cargo B moves to LGG

Post by Acid-drop »

The 8 biggest cargo airport of europe are inside a circle of 300km radius around LGG ... of course all the companies that comes are "stolen" from one of those ... That's competition.
The whole world already fly to this region of europe, and unless you create a new company ...
Cargo-B would have started in LGG if it was made by walloon investors or without that 25% of the flemish gov. I see no reasons to choose BRU for full cargo. And now with the noice restrictions, the choice became even more simple, it's a question of live or death for that young but promissing company.
(a very important player in Liège is also CAL)

EDIT :
The walloon gov will provide a loan of 1.5M euro. Seems that the flemish gov is not the only one anymore to invest in that company. The new 744 is planned to land in Bierset the 12 may, that look fast.

Now, if someone can explain me why the walloon gov has to pay anything when they offer the best alternative ? To no see that company go to Hahn and be renamed cargo-FRA ? ;)

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zteven
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Re: Cargo B moves to LGG

Post by zteven »

Super Baloo wrote: (Once again: Can somebody tell me who will be the handler in LGG ? Thank you very much)
Handling by Aviapartner Cargo Liege.

Greetz



Steven

Super Baloo
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Re: Cargo B moves to LGG

Post by Super Baloo »

@ Steven

Thank you.

jan_olieslagers
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Re: Cargo B moves to LGG

Post by jan_olieslagers »

Acid-drop wrote:The walloon gov will provide a loan of 1.5M euro. Seems that the flemish gov is not the only one anymore to invest in that company. The new 744 is planned to land in Bierset the 12 may, that look fast.

Now, if someone can explain me why the walloon gov has to pay anything when they offer the best alternative ? To no see that company go to Hahn and be renamed cargo-FRA ? ;)
I understood this loan was to cover the cost of moving. So I do not read this as an investment properly speaking.

teddybAIR
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Re: Cargo B moves to LGG

Post by teddybAIR »

I am sick and tired of having to read that people living around the airport complain about noise levels while having bought underpriced houses!

First of all: I live about 0,5NM down the threshold of R02/20 in Steenokkerzeel. That is next to the mayor's house. I regularly go to the centre of Steenokkerzeel which is squeezed in between the approach paths of 25R and 25L. Well, I live there for about 2 years now: during those 2 years, I haven't seen a single protesting poster behind the windows...never during a sunday's market have I heard people complaining and none of my neighbours has even mentionned overflying planes or any inconvenionce.

Moreover, stating that these people have bought their houses below market-prices thanks to the vicinity of the airport is testimony to your shortsightedness and complete lack of relevant knowledge. I monthly think about these extremely stupid comments when paying of my 30 year +350k€ loan!

In conclusion: real estate around the airport is among the most expensive in the country thanks to the vicinity and good access of all major cities (Brussels, Antwerp, Mechelen, Leuven within 30') and people around the airport do not complain about noise at all! It is a vast minority of frustrated locals who have grouped in organisations like Daedalus that get too much media attention who are responsible for a large part of the fuzz created!

Best regards,
bAIR

Acid-drop
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Re: Cargo B moves to LGG

Post by Acid-drop »

(in dutch) http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/News/?id=30560
(in french) http://www.rtlinfo.be/rtl/news/article/ ... t+poubelle+
the local residents complain that the airport became a "trash airport". I don't know how they dare complaining. They had compensation like nowhere in Europe, they had very good soundproofing, and those in the zone A had the opportunity to sell their house. Now shut up people !! (Especially when a new company flying silent -400 is comming)
(in dutch) http://www.standaard.be/Artikel/Detail. ... ection=214

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