matsATC wrote:
Ehm... I think you're still missing the point: most of us are happy to work as a controller, and know that if they would go and work elsewhere, they would have to work more hours (for less, or more money, that depends). The problem is that we are not sure our jobs will be still there in a few years...
Ehm, with all my support for your feelings, but do you really think ANYBODY can be sure his/her job will still be there in a few years ??? If anybody is here in the forum who is sure his/her job will still be there please post it, but I do not know anybody anywhere in the economy. This might not be nice - and I would be happy if it would change - but going on strike will certainly not change this situation.
And please read the press release of the staff of belgocontrol... then you know it isn't only about SES
Now we're getting somewhere, let's see that press release.
No hard feelings guys, you got it hard on yourself and so do many people.
It's not like this discussion will change the course of the projected industrial action and I don't think that that is the purpose of the discussion anyway but many people including me want to understand what's going on and what kind of problems you are facing. Being arrogant does not help that, it only induces Newton's 3rd law.
I see some real anger in some posts that is quite surprising to me and interesting. But cultivated people can reason in a cultivated manner with one another so let's try to do that.
As said by Euroflyer and a dozen times by myself, I don't think that a strike would do any good in the European Sky talks. It would be interesting to read how you see that that is not true, for instance.
no anger at all (against any of you)
Just 2 things, read the article on "de standaard" (sorry it'sin dutch)...
And, If coca Cola (a company with great potential) is badly managed... so bad that after 10 years it is almost bancrupt... If personnel is already sounding alarmbels for the last years...
It would be stupid of the staff of coca cola to sit down and say ... well ok, we willbe working for Pepsi, (maybe gaining a little more) ... it has to be ...
No they would stand up to save Coca Cola...
Well Belgocontrol has a good product, has good controllers (apart for the "avoiding actions on FIS in uncontrolled airspace, were only 1/50th of the ac are calling, and you'll have to maintain own separation (VFR in class G) has potential in its airspace, has a new center (in a few months)... etc...
about separations:
1) class G (Bru Information) is uncontrolled, we do not make separations there and the basic rules of the air apply there. I do assume you know these? (right of way etc)
We only give info, if we see something and if concerning REPORTED traffic.
2) TCAS alert near an aerodrome? TCAS RA should be off there: the TWR is allowed to use "reduced seperation in the vicinity of aerodromes", so the 3/5 NM and 500/1000 ft rule does not apply here, as long as the controller has both aircraft in sight, at least one in contact, and, while remaining visual with both TFC, can clearly establish that both aircraft will remain clear of each other. This means, if TFC comes closer than RADAR minima, and one has TCAS on board, he will get a RA and the pilot may write reports as much as he wants; further investigation will reveal that there was no incident. It's not because a pilot writes a report, that there was an actual problem. I had some reports in the past, well, over the past 11, 12 years now, and always have been in the clear afterwards. If you are not happy with our service, go fly abroad then, problem solved. You'll feel much safer!
About FAA-controllers:
The lighter the TFC, the less they earn; mayor airport controllers earn a whole lot more than we do, only paying 25% tax. Believe me, they are way better off and, stop comparing, man, you don't know what you're talking about. Yes, they have easily double the amount of aircraft to handle, within an airspace block up to 50 times the size of ours! If I could shoose, I chose double traffic in a huge airspace, in stead of our traffic within our tiny, most complicated airspace of Europe and as well the US.
About myself:
Why do you think I am a tower controller? As my collegue said earlier, we are one block of solidarity, regional TWRs, Brussels TWR, Brussels and Ostend Approach, Airways. Believe me, we are, with our group of +/-350 controllers, in it together and we'll stay in it together. And even, let's assume only one unit had these kind of problems, then something still exists called solidarity: we support each other, and all units will have solidarity for the unit in trouble!
NCB, you're a private pilot apparently, and I'm happy for you that you have such a nice hobby which many people can't afford. You get FIS for free, and, depending on the situation at a certain aerodrome, you sometimes get without a doubt special requests which are normally not approved still granted (specific types of approach, sightseeing somewhere...). Be happy with what you have, and enjoy your hours of flying, but stop moaning about something you don't know anything about. We are all happy to answer your questions, about what is going wrong aso, but ask first before judging and, once again, do believe me: THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MONEY!!! (but I have the distinct impression you do not believe me).
PS: every controller parks his car at the private Belgocontrol parking yard, which is inaccesible for you and not visible from the street; you do not know which cars are on there but, I assure you, you will be amazingly surprised.
Last edited by ChRt on 01 Jan 2009, 17:28, edited 2 times in total.
Hah, that's a funny one TCAS
Nah, I can handle myself on Detroit approach, I don't think that I'm the issue
ChRt wrote:1) class G (Bru Information) is uncontrolled, we do not make separations there and the basic rules of the air apply there. I do assume you know these? (right of way etc)
We only give info, if we see something and if concerning REPORTED traffic.
Indeed it's at pilot's discretion and responsibility.
But when I get a "radar contact" I expect them to help me look out because sincerely, you got to be superman to be alert all the time and to detect all traffic. Otherwise I don't see the point of the service.
In most developed countries I have flown in (Belgium, Italy, France, Netherlands, Germany, US and Canada), the only place I have encountered the issue is in Belgium. In all except Belgium, if they loose you on the radar, they inform you about that.
Anyways, atco, after reading the article I better understand your point of view.
The same problem makes Italian atco's hold semi-annual strikes. Bad management is never fun to work with, and certainly not for smart guys like you guys and gals.
It does clarify alot of the issues but can the European sky work if each country keeps its own territory for itself? Also, why should Belgocontrol offer free ATC services at regional airports? Does the EU have the authority to impose such rulings? Why is there no pressure from the authorities to put pressure on the politicians and Belgo management?
I heard that Belgian airlines lose alot of money due to alot of unnecessary low-flying as a result of surrounding atc centres keeping them low for airspace division purposes, an issue that could be resolved by the European sky. If true, that would explain why airlines would not oppose a streamlining of Belgocontrol.
NCB, I'm happy you finally read the press release, although I do believe you should have started doing that before making any comments in this topic.
Anyway, all ATCOs of Belgocontrol are in FULL support of Single Sky, as we do believe that the current working methods are unacceptable, intolerable, cost-ineffective and inflexible. Furthermore, we support an even more social edition called MOSAIC, you can find a lot of this on the web, I'm not going into detail about it.
With reference to FIS: we know it's not the greatest service provided by us, in our defense we have to cover a very large and scattered piece of airspace, and just as my collegue already stated before: for every a/c calling us, 50 don't; furthermore, it's not because you get a squawk assigned, you have radarcontact. Radarcontact is only when you are positively identified both by level and plot, and we only do that within controlled airspace. If on a shiny Sunday afternoon I have to start radaridentifying every single guy who calls me, I'm sorry but that's too much to handle. Again, we don't make separations and that's typical in class G airspace. If other centres do that, the're more than welcome to do this. We don't. If tomorrow you fly with me on FIS and something pops-up close to you on my screen, I'll advise you I see "something". But most guys even don't squawk 7000, or fly with no squawk (A/C) at all. Tell me: how do I have to advise you of something I don't see? NCB, you sound like someone who thinks to know everything (met already quite a few people like you in the past), so please, come visit our FIS on a sunny day/CAVOK, and follow a few hours. Then we'll talk again. You can not be superman, but surely you are requiring we are. Anyway, until you have seen our traffic conditions on FIC, until then, for me this discussion about FIS is closed. You don't like it the way we do it, go fly abroad. Meaning no disrespect. I'm already happy that we have an excellent reputation regarding our work within controlled airspace, and luckely those providing us this reputation are people of another caliber than you. Again, I mean no disrespect. I'm talking about Eurocontrol and a wide variety of airliners and other ATC-centres around the globe, often very interested to send their (future) ATCO's on training with us, because of, oh yes, our great international reputation regarding safety and airspace management. And that reputation is made by us, controllers, because we have to make it true every day. Our managers will be boasting about it, but believe me, it's not because they are good managers! So it's a shame you try to judge us in general just by our performance on FIC, without knowing anything about our great performance on all other (controlled) sectors.
Make it clear: we don't want to go on strike, but maybe we'll have to, not because we are against Single Sky, but because we want to be part of it; we want an entire new airspace structure, not restricted to country boundaries, divided in nice, clean, functional airspace blocks. We, Belgian ATCO's, don't only want Single Sky, we NEED Single Sky, everybody will benefit from it. But if we let things like they are today with our current management, Belgocontrol will disappear within a few years and we will all be out of jobs, our airspace being taken over by foreign controllers. If we act now and demand a new management, it's the aim of the game to start participating actively to Single Sky and that way we could hold our jobs. So, believe me, even striking now for two weeks on a row are worth it if we can force a new management to be assigned to Belgocontrol which is prepared to start talking about an European integration within a larger entity, this way assuring us we can keep our job on the one hand, while providing big advantages for the airspace users in the future. That's the essence!
Belgium and Belgocontrol will be judged in the future for not following Europe's tax regulation. Our CEO says we are the reason why the enroute charges are too high, yet on the other hand, he doesn't collect taxes as he should do. It's European law to have Terminal Charges, our management and the PS Liège don't want it to be implemented to protect Charleroi.
Judging by the general inclination of your posts, I'm led to believe you cherish a great deal of resentment towards the pilot community, whether they be private or professional.
This disconcerts me as you are deemed responsible for serving their safety and well-being, and that of the colleagues and passengers they may carry.
Where the root of your frustrations lies – a few obvious possibilities spring to mind – is completely irrelevant, as long as they are addressed and dealt with.
Making aviation run smooth is a team effort where every speciality is of equal importance. Omitting one will result in degraded overall performance. So just so you know : There is no need to feel threatened by the pilot community. They consider you part of the team, they rely on you to be their "third eye" and you are the ones they call upon to relieve some of the pressure they may encounter during an emergency or one of the many other reasons during which and increased stress level may occur.
I hope you take this as a token of appreciation for the job you guys perform to high a standard every day, but also as an incentive for some sorely needed introspection.
Kind regards.
PS: As this is to be my only post in this matter, I hope this will not turn into a back-and-forth discussion in which you will next deny harbouring any frustrations and where I will have to refer you to your past posts.
Off course, I do need to reply. I have no idea why my posts implicate I have something against pilots in general. Au contraire, I have an excellent relationship with pilots, on a professional level without a doubt, and also on a personal level as I have about ten personal friends who are professional pilots.
What is disturbing, however, are people, in general, who like to criticise a point of view without knowing the real situation of the one(s) being criticised. Whether or not they are pilots, whether they are professional or private, I don't care. But if tomorrow a pilots' union out of the blue announces in the press that they might hold serious kinds of industrial action in the near future for one reason or another, I, as a controller, will not start immediatelly yapping around that it is outrageous aso, first of all I want to know, preferably in detail, what is going on before publicly throwing my opinion around AGAINST this announced action. So, don't be mistaken, it was a silly coincidence that it was a (private) pilot attacking us and, as you can read yourself a few posts back, eventually the reason why is because he DID NOT read our press release first, before starting to make wild accusations and, yes, almost insults towards us on some levels (eg: so called air misses which aren't at all). So, for all the same, it could have been a garbageman, an insurance agent, a tax collector... It just happened to be a private pilot.
Certain actions have been held in the past by airline/airport staff, which could not have my personal approval. Some did, some didn't. However, even those which I did not approve of I still defended towards my friends, family aso. Why? Because we are family, and I'm happy I'm a controller who was already several years active when Sabena was still up and running, where the family-feeling was very alive as well. So, I hope I have convinced you that you have read something which wasn't written. I can only assume that you are a pilot as well using Belgian controlled airspace, so without any doubt you know my voice on the freq. Off course, I remain anonymous on this forum but believe me: I'm not someone, when you talk to me in my sector, whom you will say of that "this is a controller who cherishes a great deal of resentment towards the pilot community".
In brief: the only thing I ask everyone is, before judging us, controllers, to read the press release first. And one problem many pilots AND controllers have is they know nothing about each other jobs anymore. Only a small number of pilots take the effort to visit CANAC and/or the TWR, and speak with the ATCOs. On the other hand, an even smaller amount of ATCOs still take the effort of visiting cockpits and speak to pilots. I have to admit: safety procedures are often the reason why it often takes a lot of effort to visit hte workspace of the other. Personally, I've done tens of "jump-seat" visits, in total now with 8 different airlines. And always one of my first questions to the pilots is: "What can we do better?" I've learnt a great deal that way (and, if possible and allowed, I act to that), and the pilots I have spoken to also learnt a great deal of me by asking questions. And personally, I think the level of most certainly the Belgian pilots is very high, amongst the highest of all pilots flying through our airspace, and that in case of both the professional and private ones. I can only hope you guys think the same about us.
Could you provide some info or some way to find out
-what disruptions will result of the action
-how long it will last
-what services will be grounded (airport?ENR?)
Good luck with the negotiations and with the actions!
Edit:
"Interne problemen
Volgens VSOA zijn er een pak interne problemen bij Belgocontrol, onder meer bij de leiding. Gisteren raakte al bekend dat de luchtverkeersleiders maandag "twee uur gratis gaan werken". Bij Belgocontrol in Steenokkerzeel werken 1.000 mensen.
Rough translation:"According to VSOA there are many internal issue, including in management. Atco's will hold a "2 hour unpaid work campaign" on Monday. A 1000 people are employed by Belgocontrol in Steenokkerzeel.
Perhaps atco's can explain what the aim and how the 2 hour campaign will go to work?
Will it impact Belgocontrol financially while keeping all services going?
Also some reading: Het Vrij Syndicaat van het Openbaar Ambt (VSOA) heeft een stakingsaanzegging ingediend bij Belgocontrol, het bedrijf dat instaat voor de luchtverkeersleiding in het Belgische luchtruim. De vakbond wil daarmee de aandacht van de Belgische overheid vestigen op de problemen bij Belgocontrol. Die situeren zich volgens de vakbond vooral bij het dagelijkse bestuur, waarbij de rol van het directiecomité en de raad van bestuur volledig zou zijn uitgehold. Daarbij wordt gesteld dat de dagelijks bestuurder het overheidsbedrijf Belgocontrol als een despoot leidt. Bovendien heeft de Belgische overheid volgens de vakbond nagelaten om de Europese verordening over routeheffingen in te voeren. Het VSOA roept naar eigen zeggen de Belgische overheid op Belgocontrol van de ondergang te redden. De vakbond laat nog weten dat het geen wilde acties wil organiseren, maar wel bereid te zijn ver te gaan om zijn eisen waar te maken. Omdat er nog geen signaal is gekomen van de overheid, werd beslist een stakingsaanzegging in te dienen. (MH)
Well, we just work two hours for free tomorrow between 14h00 and 16h00 L, to symbolise we really want to break with our current management. Impact on traffic: none. All services will be provided, safely and expeditiously as usual. We just don't accept any salary for those two hours.
The aim of the game is to wake up the media and the politicians once again, as there was only little or no interest in our previous press release, in any way too little interest in general. Now we want to draw everybody's attention to our urgent problem again by having a positive and fun kind of industrial action. This way the 1001th attempt we did the last ten years to avoid a strike.
If this doesn't work, I'm afraid we're running out of ideas...
Reading this is just hilarious! First of all, I am a professional pilot at Brussels Airlines flying the 737. And the only thing I can say is that 'our' controllers here in Belgium are really top controllers doing every day a fantastic job! Certainly in comparison to controllers elsewhere in Europe. Go to FCO where controllers give you modified bases ( what the fuck?) and inventing their own sepration because they feel like an Alitalia should land before you!
So NCB, NBC or whattever your name is, maybe you have a frustration because you're only flying VFR around Belgium and never made it to the upper airways. No offence, but if you go flying on a CAVOk sunday afternoon, YOU SHOULD KNOW that there is a lot of traffic and that it is 'dangerous'. FIS do everything they can, but they're not supermen neither!
ATCO's in Belgium, you have all my support and fight for your rights! If I can make only one comment to you guys and that is to be a bit more 'chauvinistic'. What I mean is that in Spain and Italy and many other countries controllers always give priority to their national carriers and in BRU, if we're taxiing inners to holding point 07R and an Alitalia comes from R,S, T or U we never get way! They prefer to send the Alitalia before us instead then for one time let us go in front!!! Come on!!! Be proud! And its not because they have slots or anything, it is just that Belgian people are to discrete and low profile.
I'm happy to see that there are still people who think like calisto!
Frankly, I understand both sides: on the one hand there is NCB. I think you could say that his arguments are a good example of how the general public thinks about this problem. Although I do not always fully agree with the statements, I do think that the general public would perceive an ATCO strike as a renegade action. Why? Well, because they don't have the entire background of the problem (nore have I or many forum members posting here). IMHO, NCB is totally right when he claims that industrial actions will not lead to increased comprehension or sympathy by any of the stakeholders.
But then again, there is also the point of view of the ATCO's. Just imagine you are trying to solve an issue for 10 years straight and no significant actions are taken. I can't imagine even 1 industry where it takes a significant issue 10 years to develop before staff strikes to demonstrate their sentiments. Moreover, the way the ATCO's protest today proves that they want to make a point, but not at the cause of safety...something NCB validally uses as an argument against industrial actions. Today's action shows that there are ways to come up for a cause without damaging the industry or compromising safety.
Overall, I am happy with the way ATCO's try to make their point today. It proves that 1) they have a genuine concern they want to adress. 2) They take into account the other stakeholders and are well aware of their collective responsibility and their role. They have my full support in fighting for their cause. If only all industries would pay so much caution before starting an industrial action!
To conclude, I would like to advise everybody (pilot's, ATCO's, groundhandlers,...) to ensure they keep a broad enough perspective. Let's not draw conclusions to fast or develop prejudices based on a few own experiences. Everybody in this industry has an enormous responsibility and I am convinced that most of you are aware of it.
ChRt wrote:Well, we just work two hours for free tomorrow between 14h00 and 16h00 L, to symbolise we really want to break with our current management. Impact on traffic: none. All services will be provided, safely and expeditiously as usual. We just don't accept any salary for those two hours.
The aim of the game is to wake up the media and the politicians once again, as there was only little or no interest in our previous press release, in any way too little interest in general. Now we want to draw everybody's attention to our urgent problem again by having a positive and fun kind of industrial action. This way the 1001th attempt we did the last ten years to avoid a strike.
If this doesn't work, I'm afraid we're running out of ideas...
A quick survey of Belgian media confirms your fears: I can find no mention of your action. If more rigorous action is initiated, the media will have their part in that - but something makes me suspect they will NOT mention that part!
Overall, I am happy with the way ATCO's try to make their point today. It proves that 1) they have a genuine concern they want to adress. 2) They take into account the other stakeholders and are well aware of their collective responsibility and their role.
This 2 hour unpaid action is indeed a great way to demonstrate the value of atco's.
So NCB, NBC or whattever your name is, maybe you have a frustration because you're only flying VFR around Belgium and never made it to the upper airways. No offence, but if you go flying on a CAVOk sunday afternoon, YOU SHOULD KNOW that there is a lot of traffic and that it is 'dangerous'. FIS do everything they can, but they're not supermen neither!
The FIS issue is a management issue and we all know that.
Yes, I only fly VFR in Belgium (well, mostly because there's not much you can do IFR out here).
FIS is cronically understaffed which results in VFR traffic not getting their money's worth (neo-socialism taxes everything including fuel, so we are paying for this service indirectly).
I am not necessarily against atco's seen the actual circumstances and their way of acting. Unfortunately my support and probably yours and that of other members of this forum will be of little help to their actions and to what they're willing to achieve. Certainly so when the ennemy is an government authority.
As Jan Olieslagers pointed out, the actions are thus far failing to achieve media impact.
It's only when we see "atco's work for free to protest" titles on hln.be that one can say that it starts to have some impact. But who knows... if I understand correctly, this is just the beginning.
Teddybair, I think you got the point.
If everyone agrees there would be no discussion. Sometimes it's more interesting to be proven wrong than to see an important subject go down the drains.
Yep, we all hope that this will suffice as action, that the media will catch the attention required and that our joyfull industrial action today will be all over the news tonight. That way we are sure that tomorrow the "Rue De La Loi - Wetstraat" will react to us, because although being spoken to only last month they already seemed to have forgotten us.
I'm sorry, guys, should our free action today does not have the reuired effect tomorrow, then only little options are left. But we hope that everybody can see then that we have tried every other option, during ten years!
And just a little remark: NCB kept the discussion well going, and at the beginning was not really aware of the exact problems of our social discussion and why FIS was not running as well as anything else (these problems hang, how strange it might seem, together). But he seems to be convinced that after all we're not so bad guys. That's of course the point of having a discussion,and he changed opinion in the course of the discussion whilst on the other hand he made me aware that we still have to do a lot more communicating. Only smart people dare to change their mind, NCB is a smart man.
??? If anybody is here in the forum who is sure his/her job will still be there please post it, but I do not know anybody anywhere in the economy. This might not be nice - and I would be happy if it would change - but going on strike will certainly not change this situation.
