Sabena or not...

[Megaman]

I believe that the situation is different than in the US. In the US they are all americans flying on american companies. In Europe, you have different nationalities and you have I guess some pride in having a national flag carrier (my opinion...)

[brussels airlines]

I mean that we live in Belgium. We have three national languages:
-French
-Dutch
-German
No way ever you can call a Belgian company 'Koninklijke Belgische luchtvaartmaatschappij' or 'Royal Compagnie aérienne belge'. So we picked an English name.

Ofcourse you don't have such problems in The Netherlands or France, they all speak the same language. In belgium (from political view) this is immpossible. And as you may now Sabena stood for something in French, don't try this these day's.
And now people are going to say "No one had a problem with the fact that Sabena was an abreviation of a Fench name". True. But no one remembered where Sabena stood for. In English Sabena was: Such A Bad Experience Never Again. In Dutch: Seks Aan Boord En Niks Anders.

I don't see Lufthansa changing SN in Lufthansa Belgium or Lufthansa Brussels. Swiss is also not called Lufthansa Switzerland or Lufthansa Zurich.

[Megaman]

In Dutch: Seks Aan Boord En Niks Anders.

To my eyes, this is just another reason why to rename back to Sabena ... Personnally and I'm happy to see that this is shared by people accross the imaginary intra belgium border, I see Sabena as part of our heritage for all Belgians... I doubt that traffic would suffer because of a name. To my eyes, when it comes to chosing, it's all about conveniance. I'm sure 100% will fly the company which has the most conveniant connection, price/service ratio but surly not for a name... agreed that it might be a negative to extremists but come on, let's grow up now...

[Air Key West]

Dear "brussels airlines" : you are so b.air. Not understanding what is going on and not listening to the voices of the majority.
Off topic I know, but basic mistakes have to be corrected. You write OPEC clearly announced they will rise the price of oil in future. OPEC has no power to increase the price of oil. They can decide to reduce production, hoping this will make prices go up. You also write that when airlines fly less (because of the crisis), OPEC will sell less oil and prices will increase. WRONG again. When demand goes down (because airlines fly less), prices will go down. It's a question of offer and demand. Basic economics. And as to long term strategies : no airline can no longer have a long term strategy when it comes to oil (which is a pity) because oil prices are decided by the market and speculation and are extremely volatile (= nobody knows how the price will develop) and the same goes for the dollar in which oil prices are quoted. A volatile oil market and a volatile dollar make long term strategies impossible.
Back to sabena. I never said b.air is not a safe airline. Or tell me where I said that. And I know most pilots who fly for b.air come from the SABENA Flight Academy. In other words, b.air still owes a lot to SABENA.
And your Sabena/Yves comparison is like comparing apples and pears. Sabena is not a child or a human being, but is (or was) a commercial entity. You would not think of selling your child, would you ?

[Air Key West]

Forgot something. Am quite happy you decided not to rename snba into sabena, because the present brussels airlines does not deserve to be called sabena.
And to most people (except for "brussels airlines") sabena is just a name, not a French name, not an abbreviation of a French title. How may people know what LOT stands for ? We just know it's the Polish airline.
And Sab319 might be right : it is not impossible that LH will rename its subsidiaries one day or another into just Lufthansa (or maybe - on the model of Lufthasa Italia - Lufthansa Swiss and Lufthansa Brussels). I would not bet too much on Lufthansa Belgium (the country might very well not exist anymore, but that is another subject not to be treated here). It is indeed not unlikely that in five or ten years from now, LH, LX, SN (OS) will all just be called Lufthansa.

[brussels airlines]

[uOFF TOPIC][/u]
You're wrong. We will always need oil, and I'm not talking about aviation only. What will they do -> decrease their production ->the one who pays the most will have the oil. Oil has become a need, just like water today. We need it, and those OPEC-countries bloody know it.

I've never said that the Sabeniens were incompetent people. You're correct, they were one of the best crews in the world. And so Brussels Airlines still has some of the best crews in the world. The incompetent people were the governement, and the management. But i really don't like to go to specific over and over again about the difference of Sabena Strategy and Brussels Airlines Strategy. After all, it are these so b.air people who gave thousands ex-Sabeniens a job, who are making profits with this company and it's by those so b.air people that a big and good international carrier like Lufthansa takes a stake in the company.
ON TOPIC
Look, I can't blame you for liking the name Sabena over Brussels Airlines. But I can assure you two things:
-except for aviation lovers (btw I'm an aviation lover too) nobody needs to see a new Sabena
-before 2010 no new name and brand will be launched (clearly said by Lufthansa CEO at the b.house) and after that I've my doubts about it. But I don't have a magic lamp.

Who tells Brussels Airlines wants to deserve the name Sabena ? An airline that was never profitable, and with a management that had illegal bank accounts on some nice islands, with strikes every couple of months. No thank you!

[airazurxtror]

Altough not the best airline in the world, Brussels Airlines nevertheless deserves not to be called Sabena.

[Air Key West]

Will b.air make a profit in 2008 ? Any projections available ?

[brussels airlines]

It will probably be break-even. Or a very marginal profit is also possible, but i don't have figures.

[sn-remember]

Hummm ..
First to Brussels Airlines, you are sympathic to me because you stick to the enterprise launched on the ashes of Sabena, which is now your "baby"
But like any father, u are maybe not (too) objective ..
But after all we are all a bit sentimental on this issue even if we defend ourselves from being so ..
That's why I prefered to read the (interesting) postings rather than interfering.
Interfering to add what ?
Everything has been said, it's now up to the analysts to investigate and draw the conclusions.
Let's hope that LH's team will take the effort to do just that.

Imho, u cannot transpose the american way of merging into one brand here in Europe because, as has been rightly mentioned, Europe is multi-cultural. Why should culture impact the airlines business u'll ask me ? .. Well just because we are humans and not robots (hey it's only my view !) For instance traveling to Warsaw aboard a LOT a/c means already (in some way) having entered the polish territory and culture. And yes I like it so. Now if I take a LH flight from BRU to WAW I am definitely in "Schiller's Heimat", quite a difference .. an experience which I can enjoy also provided that I still have the choice to opt for LOT or SNBA of course ! I have to admit (humbly) that I am among thoses (probably too "human") who would feel quite sorry not to have the "belgian" or "brussels" option (the latter for those who feel more attached to this city than to their home country) of flying ..
True, when coming back from abroad, I feel (stupidly ?) happy to board an SNBA a/c ... although it is (too me !) pale compared to what Sabena was.

It's up to the analysts to measure if this "stupid feeling" is widespread enough to justify keeping a specific brand (I am sure it is
And to me for all the good reasons already stated, this brand should be Sabena again.
I am not too sure that adding the "flown by Lufthansa" would add value... Only old ladies need a stick .. and (whatever the age) if they actually need one, they would rather not advertise it too loudly

[Conti764]

But let me put it this way, if we chose the name Sabena in 2006, would you feel different about Sabena ?

At the start, many people will still see Sabena as the company that once went defunct, that's quite logical. Some might even recall the only average service on their European flights and those flights probably won't be profitable the first few years, but neither are the current flights.

The only money making market of SN is Africa and this always has been SN's cash cow. This market is so important it makes enough money to maintain the entire operation of the company, including the money losing European market. Sabena still has a great reputation and brand awareness in Africa, so there is no reason whatsoever to assume rebranding the company 'Sabena' would damage it.

Now, when you offer your clients a good service intra-Europe, given some time people will slightly start to forget the bad situation Sabena was in the last years of her existence. In the meanwhile you can enhance the African market and grow within Star Alliance.

The key market is and will stay Africa and rebranding the company to Sabena won't harm the company in that market, on the contrary.

Or I can put it this way aswell. It's maybe hard...but if you have a child who calls Yves. And on a day Yves dies in a car-crash. A year later, you're second child is born, are you going to call it Yves? I don't think so.

This is exactly the mistake you're making, in my opinion... You're seeing this entire name discussion in an emotional way. In aviation, and actually in every economic activity, you should see it rationally and pure to the figures.

Now, to Air Key West: you must know that about 80-90% of the cabin and cockpit crew of Brussels Airlines comes from the Sabena Flight Academy.

Meaning, What difference does this make?

[Conti764]

Who tells Brussels Airlines wants to deserve the name Sabena ? An airline that was never profitable, and with a management that had illegal bank accounts on some nice islands, with strikes every couple of months. No thank you!

Again, Brussels Airlines is only marginally profitable thanks to their African market (where Sabena is far more known!) and the fact that the company now is led like an economic entity, rather then a (semi-)political state company.

Sabena did 'fine' as long as the government backed them. But with the EU forcing aviation to privatize and become more economic, Sabena was far to sick to change. It was an example of 'Belgium'. A constant battle between French speaking and Dutch speaking board members. You know, in the nineties, before SR stepped in, KLM wanted to take over Sabena, but it was vetoed by the French speaking board because they would fear Dutch language and influence would become to important and the national carrier of Belgium being sold to the national carrier of Holland was a total no-no in Belgium. So they decided to go along with 'neutral' Swissair.

The fact that Sabena was backed by the government also meant that the entire staff didn't have to worry about economics or money. Sabena was, in fact, a government company whereas people would have a job so they wouldn't end up out of work. I think allot of ex-Sabeniens will disagree with me, but many people in the company had a hard time switching from a semi-governmental company to a fully private company.

Sabena flew to allot of non money making prestigious destinations. Again, as long as the government backed them, this was no problem. But as soon as the government support ended, it was game over for the company, even more so since Swissair 'raped' Sabena is all ways possible, imposing them with Swissairs own catering devision, which was far more expensive then that of Sabena and forcing too much brand new and expensive Airbusses onto the fragile company.

There were to many people walking around with their head in the sand, not realizing that the once so proud company went to the ground with an uncomfortable speed. The government acted as a parachute for far too long untill they were only a few miles above the ground and the parachute was lost. After that, there was far too less time before the company would smash the ground.

Now, what does this have to do with the discussion? Sabena as a company wasn't led smart or good, but the brand is established and recognized. Given some time it will regain it's once prestigious reputation. The old crocodiles who were leading the old Sabena are all gone and this time the company isn't backed by the government, but by another company which only target is to make money and as soon as Lufthansa realizes SN is going down the wrong path again, they won't hesitate to make the right decisions to turn this around.

[Air Key West]

I agree.
All of us here, I think, agree that we don't want daddy's or grand-daddy's sabena back.
A majority on this forum is of the opinion that sabena is still a stronger brand than brussels airlines.
A minority( sorry "brussels airlines") only thinks of such a bad experience never again and fail to ignore sabena's impeccable safety record and think brussels airlines is, consequently, a better name/brand.
My personal opinion : brussels airlines has not been able to do proper brand positioning because brussels airlines is too long, took difficult to pronounce, you cannot find a real proper abbreviation for it (BA is British Airways or Bloody Awful) and since the two letter code on flight number is SN, many people still say "sabena".
The (probably expensive) consultants who came up with the great idea to call the airline brussels airlines when SN Brussels Airlines and Virgin Express merged, thus dropping SN from the name of the larger of the two partners, forgot that if they wanted to position the brussels airlines brand and avoid any reference to sabena, they should not only have dropped SN from SN Brussels Airlines, but they should also have recommended the SN two-letter code be dropped from flight numbers and replaced by any other available two-letter code. Whenever you fly b.air, sabena is still there on account of its two letter-code.

[cathay belgium]

Sabena is gone ,long gone,

The only right time of re-use the brand was with the Virgin/SN Brussels issue.
But now? Nope, also I would like to see it happen, It never won't!
We were talking with THE GERMANS, and germans don't have feelings just reasons !
So you were searching a new name?
What about AIR BELGIUM ( for so long it exist )?
Also effective,short,already been used ,...

And after 2010 the germans just call it LH, because they own you!,they have the money,
they will expand their brand and in the end eventually the africans will see the blue/yellow bird
and they will learn Lufthansa just like they did with SN.
How long will the brand SN survive in Africa?, it's gone and in a few years it will be forgotten because
the africans will not use it anymore, a new generation will grow up using... LH (bySN).
(or LH by ABB)

For them with nostalgia -Why didn't B-cargo use SN CARGO?
They fly to Africa with a brand new 747 from Brussels with OO-registration !

CX-B

[sn-remember]

It was an example of 'Belgium'. A constant battle between French speaking and Dutch speaking board members.You know, in the nineties, before SR stepped in, KLM wanted to take over Sabena, but it was vetoed by the French speaking board because they would fear Dutch language and influence would become to important and the national carrier of Belgium being sold to the national carrier of Holland was a total no-no in Belgium. So they decided to go along with 'neutral' Swissair.

This is quite simplistic and rather demagogic explanation my dear Conti
The truth is that KL was unwilling to bring the cash needed by SN, so the cooperation proposal (which was not a merging or a take over) was very quickly abandoned (as was the BA cooperation proposal a short while before, for the same reason)
On the other hand AF's offer that fortunately materialised afterwards was credible and truly helpful thanks mainly to the vision and will of Mr Attali. The AF/SN deal went through despite some (stupid) flemish hostility and thanks (among others) to Premier DeHaene.
This deal with AF probably saved Sabena at that time from bankruptcy and must be gratefully remembered for that and for the new impulse it gave.
The marriage with "neutral" SR (to quote u) came later when M. Attali was politically put aside and his successor decided not to continue his strategy.

[Conti764]

This is quite simplistic and rather demagogic explanation my dear Conti
The truth is that KL was unwilling to bring the cash needed by SN, so the cooperation proposal (which was not a merging or a take over) was very quickly abandoned (as was the BA cooperation proposal a short while before, for the same reason)
On the other hand AF's offer that fortunately materialised afterwards was credible and truly helpful thanks mainly to the vision and will of Mr Attali. The AF/SN deal went through despite some (stupid) flemish hostility and thanks (among others) to Premier DeHaene.
This deal with AF probably saved Sabena at that time from bankruptcy and must be gratefully remembered for that and for the new impulse it gave.
The marriage with "neutral" SR (to quote u) came later when M. Attali was politically put aside and his successor decided not to continue his strategy.

About the KL proposal, I head an entirely other version from some people who I consider reliable. If it's true, I don't know, but don't blame the messenger.

[sn-remember]

About the KL proposal, I head an entirely other version from some people who I consider reliable. If it's true, I don't know, but don't blame the messenger.

From Mr Vandermersch maybe ?

[sn26567]

How may people know what LOT stands for ?

LOT only means "flight" in Polish. One could not think of a simpler name!

[sn26567]

-before 2010 no new name and brand will be launched (clearly said by Lufthansa CEO at the b.house....)

.... that everybody still calls "Sabena House"

[LJ]

SABENA stand for :

Such A Bad Experience Never Again

You really think this is an argument against the usage of the name? When people fly Sabena to Africa (and the traffic is there, an will be bigger via Star Alliance), or in Europe and the service is good and Sabena can maintain this level of service, people will start forgetting the situation Sabena was in the last years of their existence.

Yes, this is probably the main reason why the brand SABENA will not be used. Brand association is very imporatnt. Whereas SN Brussels tries (sucessfully) to position itself as a quality airline, the brand SABENA still holds a lot of negative association with the most important pax (the business pax). Thus getting people on the Sabena flight will be the biggest problem.

You see the same with airlines like Jet Airways, Kingfisher and Aeromexico.. Many people have negative associations with airlines from third world countries and this don´t fly them. If they dont fly them they don´t known that these airlines may be good or even better than what they used to fly. Thus they will never know that the "new" Sabena is not like the "old" Sabena. Therefore you don´t use that brand (at least not in the near future).

->English name, these day it can be important to have a neutral name (so I mean no Frecnh or Dutch name)

Sabena is for most people just a name (except for some people who I feel pity for). Doesn't make sense to not fly Air France or KLM because of the language of the company name...

Maybe you can explain your point further?

Why do you think that KLM markets itself as KLM Royal Dutch Airlines? The fact is that brand association is much more important than you think. This means that people must first understand the brand. The addition "Royal dutch Airlines" (and not Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij) is done as many people associate "Royal" with quality and prestige. For the same reason KLM has a crown design in its logo. Odly in the AF/KL Group KL is not the premium brand (that´s AF).

BTW both Air France and KLM are brands that do well in English, however this also applies to Sabena.

Calling a brand "just a name" is something idiotic. Having the right brand name is very impotant. Especially with your most important pax. Some pax have very strong associations with a specific brand. Other pax do also have associations with a particular brand, though not as strong as others. If these associations are negative people avoid that brand. The fact that Sabena is more widely known is not always positive thing allthough brand awareness is very important (and that is something the management should adress). Furthermore, business pax usually are usually interested in which airline they fly. Marketing, branding and advertising may seem like a waste to many people, but if you look around you, you can see that it works.

Some say that Sabena is more widely known in Africa. However, which category of pax are we talking about? Are we talking about the low yield tourist or the high yield business pax? Furthermore, how many Africans compared to Europeans/Americans are flying on SN to Africa?