Boeing 787 Delayed An Additional 6 Months.

[PYX]

Here we go again!

"Boeing Schedules 787 Dreamliner First Flight for Second Quarter 2009; First Delivery for First Quarter 2010
Schedule change driven by impact of Machinists' strike and fastener replacement work"

Story here:
http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/200 ... 1a_nr.html
******

At this point the heads of the highest executives should roll. Not some mid-management or senior line workers as sacrificial lambs, but the entire executive committee including the Chairman of the Board and C.E.O. of Boeing, and the President of Boeing Commerical Aircraft. Plus anyone involved in the decisions to farm out so much of the work that they lost control of it.

Then they should bring as much of it as possible back in-house. Pay off some of the "partners" as necessary, but bring it home. They could do it one out-sourced program at a time.

It has to be the old McDonnell/Douglas executive crew who are responsible for this, as the whole program has ran counter to the way the Boeing we once knew built airplanes and conducted their business.
Total, complete idiocy!

[TCAS]

Good news for the global leader in aerospace

[bits44]

As bad as the news appears to be on the surface, it may be a blessing in disguise for a lot of players in this waiting game.

Boeing knows there are many airlines in trouble, the delay will give them some breathing room in the form of an unofficial deferral of orders without losing delivery slots or outright order cancellation.

The aircraft has exceeded 900 hundred orders since it's announcement, it's a huge backlog, and rather than insanely rush into production it will give Boeing and it's contractors time to sort out the little things that have caused delays.

The whole process of building a wound composite aircraft has been a remarkable learning experience, it's not an off the shelf snap together plastic model, everything about it is new, to expect everything to go along without a hitch is not only unrealistic it's an unattainable goal.

Airlines know and understand that this aircraft will be the first step toward more efficient and more comfortable travel, it's worth waiting for, it will save them huge amounts of money.

The question remains, how many airlines will still be in business?

[euroflyer]

...
Boeing knows there are many airlines in trouble
...
rather than insanely rush into production it will give Boeing and it's contractors time to sort out the little things that have caused delays
...
The whole process of building a wound composite aircraft has been a remarkable learning experience
...
airlines know and understand that this aircraft will be the first step toward more efficient and more comfortable travel, it's worth waiting for, it will save them huge amounts of money.

Hm

That is funny. But perfect marketing wording I would say. You must be in professional communication business

So Boeing is just causing those delays to please the airlines which cannot afford to buy planes today because of the economic crisis, AH !

And delaying the process again and again (we mustbe about 2 years behind schedule now?) is "not rush into production" and is a "remarkable learning experience"and only takes place to sort out the LITTLE things which have caused the delays. SORRY ?

If this process will save money for any airline today or in the coming 5 years it is because of the huge payments Boeing will have to make to them because they simply cannot deliver what they have promised to do so.

COME ON, PLEASE !! I am not saying Boeing is a bad company, my god no, I am sitting in their planes several times every week normally. But obviously they are absolutely lost with this new technology and production process. They just do not get it right until today. This is nothing positive. It is a mess for both Boeing and the airlines which had ordered the planes, full stop.

[PYX]

I've been a fan of Boeing since the Dash-80 (707), but this doesn't appear to me to be the same company. My anger and the almost sense of betrayal, for a lack of a better word, perhaps I should say, bitter disappointment, over the 787 program is beyond words.

As the financial world fell apart over the last couple of months it became apparent that somewhere along the line basic management principles were thrown out the window. and these, oh, so bright, MBA types, have taken us down the wrong road.

Management in all industries need to get back to basics. If you have noticed, the banks that haven't gotten themselves in trouble, are those who stayed away from the financial shenanigans of the last 25 years or so, and concentrated on their core business, good old fashion banking. There is a lesson there to be learned.

[euroflyer]

I've been a fan of Boeing since the Dash-80 (707), but this doesn't appear to me to be the same company. My anger and the almost sense of betrayal, for a lack of a better word, perhaps I should say, bitter disappointment, over the 787 program is beyond words.
As the financial world fell apart over the last couple of months it became apparent that somewhere along the line basic management principles were thrown out the window. and these, oh, so bright, MBA types, have taken down the wrong road.
Management in all industries need to get back to basics. If you have noticed, the banks that haven't gotten themselves in trouble, are those who stayed away from the financial shenanigans of the last 25 years or so, and concentrated on their core business, good old fashion banking. There is a lesson there to be learned.

Just three words: You are right

[achace]

Well said Pyx.

Time and time again it has been said that with the next announcement Boeing have the opportunity to put this programme in order, and yet again with this latest statement there is a very healthy scepticism, particularly the flight test programme.

Frankly, they are going to need 36 hour days to do the testing in 9 months.

I suspect they told the flight test department how much time they were to be allowed, rather than ask them what a reasonable timeframe should be.

Heck, Airbus have set aside 18 months for the 350XWB, and it is nowhere near as technically challenging as the all electric, bleedless 787.

[Buzz]

The 787 will cost Boeing A LOT of money before it will start to make money. All the airlines will ask for compensation again; a couple billion $$ at least I would assume...

Bitts44: nice try, but although some airlines are in trouble, most of them just want their new aircraft when they are supposed to arrive. They have long term fleet plans wich are completely messed up by this. Not all airlines are dumping capacity like the American airlines.

[smokejumper]

And yet, for the week ending December 9, new 787 orders were for 15 units. see: http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm

[achace]

According to a blogger on James Wallis, the wing of the static test plane has started to de-laminate.
Wonder if this contributed to what IMO was a strange move to take the plane out of the testing rig for repainting.
I hope for all concerned this is nothing more than a mischeivous rumour. Its the last thing they need right now.

[CX]

I agree that this delay gives airlines/customers a breathe, yes it's true because they're going to get compensation (in other words money) for it, and that's what they need! I wonder if some airlines knew in advance this would happen and sign for huge numbers of 787 to get huge compensation from its delay, i mean airlines have nothing to lose even if the thing doesn't fly, it'll just get compensation for free, but clearly this isn't Boeing's intended tactic, or you may try to say that they have this ultra long vision so they decided to give money to airlines to keep the whole industry alive ...no What's Boeing's share price? short selling it is probably a great strategy before they release their loss on airline compensation.

I think another major issue is how much better is it over the A330. There were data even in this forum that the weight advantage of the 787 over the A330 is not that much, and the A330 has room for improvements such as re-engining. This is a longer term problem of the whole project, a 10+ year old plane with a lower price tag equaling something that is brand new.

[CX]

According to a blogger on James Wallis, the wing of the static test plane has started to de-laminate.
Wonder if this contributed to what IMO was a strange move to take the plane out of the testing rig for repainting.
I hope for all concerned this is nothing more than a mischeivous rumour. Its the last thing they need right now.

But painting it won't fix delamination?

[achace]

No it wont fix it but it will hide it.
Think second hand cars.

[achace]

This de-lamination scare is gaining momentum.
Should be possible to overcome if it is just a manufacturing fault but something is seriously amiss.
The A380 incidentally has a composite set of elevators, which are pretty substantial, and they seem to be ok so we may be just looking at manufacturing problems.
I hope the story is shown up as just an ugly rumour, but Flightblogger is suggesting multiple sources of information so it isnt looking good at the moment.

[bits44]

Once again Jon digs down for the truth:

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fligh ... elami.html

[regi]

please dear members,
delamination can not, may not, will not happen at all. It has been said, confirmed, promised etcetera.
All those who predicted delamination were ridiculised.
But if you are active in the manufacturing industry - as I am - and have seen applications of carbon fibre replacing metallic parts, than you will also have seen that many of those applications failed due to...delamination. Don't worry, most of these aplications were just tests and did not go into production.
I am sure that next generation civilian airplanes will still have some strategic metallic parts in forged aluminium and titanium. This statement will be proven when we will see the successor of the B-737. It wil have again some parts reviewed in metal instead off carbon fibre.

I don't say that it is impossible to make good carbon fibre parts. But the chance that something goes wrong in the manufacturing process is much bigger than with metallic parts, where there are fewer parameters.

I have followed a German project to use CF helicopter hull components. In the long run, this road led to nowhere, swollowed enormous budgets and delayed delivery with 2 years. In the end, the parts were made in rolled / forged aluminium. It is one of the few opportunities where I have seen the production of both materials in both factories.

[smokejumper]

A Boeing spokesman has said that the eventual replacement for the B-737 will use a lower percentage of carbon-fiber than the 787, since the gains are proportionallly less. You still need steel and titannium for high impact or wear applications (landing gear, wheels, flap tracks, etc.) and the proporrtionally lower weight gains may be offset by higher costs.