"SN B747 on its way"

[NCB]

A few months ago we have discussed the prospects and possibilities of SN operating a B747-400 between BRU and FIH in the scenario of a Air DC/SN hub in FIH.

This prospect is now becoming reality with numerous rumours and reports that Lufthansa is looking to send one of their B747-400's to SN around Q2 of 2009.
A B747-400 has as much capacity as 1.5 A330-300's, meaning that it will significantly boost SN's African network.

In my opinion, in no time, a second B744's will join the fleet to add to the first one.
Some of the older Lufthansa B744's are from 1989 and they will start being replaced by the A380's in 2009.
If I'm not mistaken Airbus is expected to deliver 2 units in Q3-Q4 of 2009.

[Conti764]

A few months ago we have discussed the prospects and possibilities of SN operating a B747-400 between BRU and FIH in the scenario of a Air DC/SN hub in FIH.

This prospect is now becoming reality with numerous rumours and reports that Lufthansa is looking to send one of their B747-400's to SN around Q2 of 2009.
A B747-400 has as much capacity as 1.5 A330-300's, meaning that it will significantly boost SN's African network.

Strange since not even the FIH flights are full at this moment. Only in summer they have high pax loads on their African flights. If AirDC really comes off the ground, I could follow this step, but since nothing really happened anymore, I doubt it.

In my opinion, in no time, a second B744's will join the fleet to add to the first one.
Some of the older Lufthansa B744's are from 1989 and they will start being replaced by the A380's in 2009.
If I'm not mistaken Airbus is expected to deliver 2 units in Q3-Q4 of 2009.

This is quite hard to believe. Two 744's would be a little overkill for a small company like SN, unless AirDC becomes really popular.

It is nice though to have a regular Boeing 747-400 at BRU, that has been a while...

After edit: what do you think they will do? Just transfer the plane to SN, paint it and start flying. Or is LH likely to remove their own first class seats and replace them by SN's Business class seats?

[b-west]

As awesome as it would be, I'll believe it when I see it

[Atlantis]

A few months ago we have discussed the prospects and possibilities of SN operating a B747-400 between BRU and FIH in the scenario of a Air DC/SN hub in FIH.

This prospect is now becoming reality with numerous rumours and reports that Lufthansa is looking to send one of their B747-400's to SN around Q2 of 2009.
A B747-400 has as much capacity as 1.5 A330-300's, meaning that it will significantly boost SN's African network.

Strange since not even the FIH flights are full at this moment. Only in summer they have high pax loads on their African flights.

SN is transporting a lot of cargo on its flights to Africa. That's part of their profit. And that's why you don't need always a 100% full cabin (they prefer 100% but not necessarily).

Off Topic: F.e. you can fly half empty and still be profitable because you have cargo on board. That was the fear of some European carriers on Brussels Airport after their partly move of DHL to Leipzig.

But would an old B744 be a good choice? Flying in/to Africa is not the same as flying in Europe or the USA. I would prefer a recent one above one of their old 1989 ones.

[Conti764]

SN is transporting a lot of cargo on its flights to Africa. That's part of their profit. And that's why you don't need always a 100% full cabin (they prefer 100% but not necessarily).

Off Topic: F.e. you can fly half empty and still be profitable because you have cargo on board. That was the fear of some European carriers on Brussels Airport after their partly move of DHL to Leipzig.

But would an old B744 be a good choice? Flying in/to Africa is not the same as flying in Europe or the USA. I would prefer a recent one above one of their old 1989 ones.

You're right, plus the extra income from more C class seats (and maybe F?).

I don't think we have to expect a recent 744 for SN, I assume LH is going to keep those untill they start receiving their 748's.

[regi]

a 747 combi would be great here. But there are so few been build. And not in use at LH as far I know.

Despite the existing program of LH to South-Africa, it still makes me dream about
Bru-FIH-JNB or CPT.
I am sure that the greatest supporters would be the Congolese themselves: good service to Bru and reliable service to South-Africa for the business and health checks.

[NCB]

Strange since not even the FIH flights are full at this moment. Only in summer they have high pax loads on their African flights. If AirDC really comes off the ground, I could follow this step, but since nothing really happened anymore, I doubt it.

AirDC is still in the plans, only probably without Hwb.
I think that LH wants Air DC, because once the hub is there, LH and LX will be able to send their own aircraft there too and strengthen the group's position in Africa.

What do you think they will do? Just transfer the plane to SN, paint it and start flying. Or is LH likely to remove their own first class seats and replace them by SN's Business class seats?

My opinion is business on top (24 seats) and front main deck (16 seats), economy on the main deck (390 seats). The interiors will probably be kept as used with Lufthansa as the LH business class look very similar.

As someone reported on the other thread, the first B747's to LH were delivered as combi's as LH was expecting to need to carry alot of freight in and out of Western Germany...before long the cold war was over, and together with it, the Berlin Wall and the Iron Curtain. LH converted these aircraft to all-pax in the end of the 90's as passenger traffic gradually increased and moved cargo to the MD-11's.

I don't think that it is likely that SN will operate combi's.
The bar on restrictions for combi's are very high.

[BrightCedars]

Well, the economics of a B747-400 on SN's shoulders alone would have been devastating. But as part of a large fleet like LH and with their maintenance and support, it's really just a unit that would be flying out FRA West (i.e. BRU) than a single plane on its own. Yet I fail to see SN needing such a capacity increase, and more importantly, although this may involve negotiations that may not be likely now given the current cold climate in diplomatic relations, I believe the best option would be to setup an entire second daily rotation which would bring much more added value, prior to increasing capacity per say. Also, even if the older ones are just 19 years old at LH, going towards 20, they are not the most economical birds flying around anymore. So I voted no not that I don't believe it might happen, but because I believe it's a 2nd class strategy. Don't get me wrong, it could be a good (i.e. cheap) interim solution for a trial, hinting at the greater things to come after 2010.

[Conti764]

My opinion is business on top (24 seats) and front main deck (16 seats), economy on the main deck (390 seats). The interiors will probably be kept as used with Lufthansa as the LH business class look very similar.

They have to reserve more business seats since these bring in the money.

Looks pretty nice, doesn't it?

BrAir744.JPG (12.09 KiB) Viewed 8911 times

[Conti764]

Well, the economics of a B747-400 on SN's shoulders alone would have been devastating. But as part of a large fleet like LH and with their maintenance and support, it's really just a unit that would be flying out FRA West (i.e. BRU) than a single plane on its own. Yet I fail to see SN needing such a capacity increase, and more importantly, although this may involve negotiations that may not be likely now given the current cold climate in diplomatic relations, I believe the best option would be to setup an entire second daily rotation which would bring much more added value, prior to increasing capacity per say. Also, even if the older ones are just 19 years old at LH, going towards 20, they are not the most economical birds flying around anymore. So I voted no not that I don't believe it might happen, but because I believe it's a 2nd class strategy. Don't get me wrong, it could be a good (i.e. cheap) interim solution for a trial, hinting at the greater things to come after 2010.

Well, imagine AirDC finally coming off the ground en performing well. They'll need a hub in Africa, if not in FIH, then elsewhere. (I would also rethink the strategy behind it, focus on all of Africa and rebrand it Pan African Airlines).
So from the hub in FIH (?) AirDC/PAA flies to secondary African airports while the Star Alliance carriers fly directly to the primary airports. They'll need a feed and it could become huge enough to warrant a daily jumbo flight to the African hub.

So AirDC could have one hub and several focus cities (the cities served directly by at least two alliance partners). In the far future SN might even consider deploying its older A333's to Pan African to fly between two African focus cities.

I expect SN and LH are anticipating to this scenario and don't take risks by putting a plane on the route too late.

[Megaman]

Hmmm... When was AirDC supposed to start its operations and when is the new launch date?

[Bottie]

Hmmm... When was AirDC supposed to start its operations and when is the new launch date?

My guess ... today ... tomorrow ... never ?

[BrightCedars]

Reading from another topic that LH actually has some B747-400M (Combi's), even though currently in full passenger configuration, means that they may be an ideal solution for SN. They can of course quickly be converted back to Combi's. And if there is a sizable fleet SN could take more than just a single unit. And indeed if LH is currently using them as full passenger, probably because they prefer to carry large cargo on dedicated aircraft, they can more easily be replaced by shifting the fleet around, and with the introduction of the A380 as well.

It remains to be seen however what is the age of that fleet is, and the fact that it is not a long-term solution since the B747-400 is not getting younger, and since Combi's aren't allowed in some parts of the world any longer. However it may be sometime until it is the case in Africa, but again in the current diplomatic climate (not to mention the renewed/increased instability) the DR Congo aviation authority might just decide to copycat the US administration on short notice, maybe they'll just wait until most of the work is done and the plane is actually painted and put to SN specs for the fun!

If SN were to replace the A330-300s with B747-400Ms (ideally 2 to 3 units 1 of which for expansion purpose) on the Africa network (I guess East Africa only), it would free up to 2 A330-300s for West Africa expansion and eventually some transatlantic hop. With the dollar regaining in strength against the Euro, it's a good time to increase income in the green back. Unfortunately the business climate may not be too supportive, but there are alliance dynamics that may make the whole thing work.

Interesting times ahead if you ask me!

[BrightCedars]

Looks pretty nice, doesn't it?

It does! a pity the other side would look a bit awkward with the different logos on tail and fuselage.

What were they thinking?!

On an afterthought, you might want to keep the Star Alliance logo at the same spot it is on the fuselage of LH's own B747-400s. On the door, passengers won't notice it, the door being opened when they walk in.

[Megaman]

A few months ago we have discussed the prospects and possibilities of SN operating a B747-400 between BRU and FIH in the scenario of a Air DC/SN hub in FIH.

FIH? Doesn't look like the most business friendly environment. Especially with that general who wants to march on Kinshasha.

[Desert Rat]

That would be nice to see a B747 back in Brussels...

I can still hear "alpha" screaming when she was ripped apart by the giant clipper crane just beside the hangar 8...

[AirDupont]

It's just a rumour guys...nobody is being trained in FRA, believe me....it all started as a joke on facebook...

[Desert Rat]

It's just a rumour guys...nobody is being trained in FRA, believe me....it all started as a joke on facebook...

Well I guess they will send German crew instead of using belgian one...

The belgian pilots have a tendancy to worn out the rear end of the 747's...

[Hedi]

Guys Guys Guys why not The MD11 iso the 747-400 or a DC10 of Hewa

[Waldorf]

From what I've heard the last weeks, there's no such rumour within Brussels Airlines (nor crew nor management) about adding a B744 for the African routes.