Ryanair closes Valencia base as from 4 Nov 2008

[LX-LGX]

Because of a dispute with the regional tourism authority (read: because this authority refuses to fund Ryanair any longer) Ryanair closes it's Valencia operations as from 4 Nov 2008.

http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news.php ... -en-241008

My personal advise to passengers travelling between 04 Nov and 07 Nov 2008:

EU-Regulation 261/2004 says that another ticket ànd compensation have to be given if cancellation is done within two weeks before departure. The cancellation of Valencia-flights is done only 10 days in advance, meaning that passengers who have booked for flights to/from Valencia between 04 Nov (closure of Valencia) and 07 Nov (two weeks after the date of knowledge) don't have to accept Ryanair's offer of refund only. For cancellations less then two weeks before date and, you are entitled on the compensation as stated in Article 7: 250 euro for flights less then 1.500 kms, and 400 euro for flights between 1.500 kms and 3.500 kms. One way, thus 2 x if you have a return flight. And Ryanair also has to re-route you.

My personal advise to passengers with a confirmed booking after 08 Nov 2008:

As stated in the first paragraph from Article 5 from EU-Regulation 261/2004, you have the right of assistance by Ryanair, as set out in Article 8. That Article 8 says that you have the choice between refund or rerouting. Ryanair only offers you a refund, which is illegal: it's up to you to decide on a refund or a rerouting. I suggest you tell Ryanair that you don't accept the refund, and that you ask for a rerouting.

webpage 261/2004:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 61:EN:HTML

pdf 261/2004:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 007:EN:PDF

other languages 261/2004 (including Dutch, French, German, Spanish, ...):
http://tinyurl.com/5a3bsk
choose your language in the top navigation, then click on > html or > pdf

Rules for cancellations are set out in Article 5.

Trust the Dutch legal firm http://www.euclaim.nl will soon open a file on this mass cancellations by Ryanair. Passengers then can ask EU-claim to complain on their behalf.

[jan_olieslagers]

Perhaps better to add this to the pre-existing thread started by Luchtazk 24th october 11:33?

[LX-LGX]

Perhaps better to add this to the pre-existing thread started by Luchtazk 24th october 11:33?

That post was indeed first - but I haven't seen it.

Anyway: this topic is not about a press release, but about cancelled travel plans from thousands of passengers: more then then just a press release by an airline. I'm sure that Ryanair-passengers will be more then interested to find out what their rights are, and I assume that Latest aviation news is more appropriate for them.

[airazurxtror]

Ryanair had warned about the probable closure of its Valencia base on the 14th october.

http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news.php ... -en-141008

[LX-LGX]

Ryanair had warned about the probable closure of its Valencia base on the 14th october.

http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news.php ... -en-141008

Ryanair is putting all it's regional airports under severe pressure, and it seems that Valencia has enough from the funding system which mainly benefits Ryanair and its partners (car rental companies, booking sites for hotels).

On that same 14th October that Ryanair gave a first warning about Valencia, a judge in Charleroi has put three people from BSCA (CRL) and two from Ryanair under formal investigation.

So if Ryanair will say within a few weeks that they will close CRL because of the new Belgian tax, it could well be because they no longer can use their (secret and illegal) funding system here.

Source: La Libre - 14th October 2008:

La juge d'instruction France Baeckeland à Charleroi a inculpé plusieurs personnes pour faux et usage de faux dans le dossier Promocy, du nom de cette société créée par la compagnie aérienne Ryanair et l'aéroport de Charleroi (BSCA) pour la promotion de l'aéroport et des liaisons aériennes, notamment de Charleroi vers Dublin. Les personnes inculpées sont Laurent Jossart, l'ancien administrateur de BSCA, Pierre Fernémont, ancien porte-parole de BSCA et depuis six mois responsable de la communication de la Sonaca, Alain Belot, ancien administrateur de BSCA. Deux responsables de Ryanair, Michael Cawley et Bernard Berger, ont également été inculpés, précisait mardi la presse francophone. Promocy était financée conjointement par l'aéroport et Ryanair à raison de 4 euros par passager chacun. Depuis la décision de la Commission Européenne condamnant Ryanair à reverser les aides indûment perçues à l'aéroport de Charleroi (février 2004), le ministre wallon André Antoine, en charge des aéroports wallons, a demandé la fin du "mécanisme Promocy". En avril 2006, la société a été mise en sommeil et n'a plus d'activité. Elle dispose encore sur ses comptes d'un montant de 140.000 euros.

http://www.lalibre.be/toutelinfo/belga/ ... omocy.html

[Atlantis]

Its not only about the benefits Ryanair received of Valencia, but Valencia airport wants more carriers on its own tarmac. Ryanair was not happy with it. More carriers is more competition and they don't like it. Good job Valencia airport! You are the first one who fights against Ryanair's practices.

[airazurxtror]

Its not only about the benefits Ryanair received of Valencia, but Valencia airport wants more carriers on its own tarmac. Ryanair was not happy with it. More carriers is more competition and they don't like it. Good job Valencia airport! You are the first one who fights against Ryanair's practices.

Valencia is not the first to try and be smarter than Ryanair. I remember Rimini trying it also. Rimini is no longer on the Ryanair map, and has remained a small provincial airport, with mostly Russian charters. Travellers go with Ryanair to other airports around: Forli, Ancona, Treviso, Bologna. Who has lost most ?

Valencia wants more carriers and begins by throwing out one they already have - who will they get now ? Spanair ? Clickair/Vueling ? Good luck to them. And anyway, they were no competitors for Ryanair, sorry ...

I think Ryanair was too successful for the local Spanish carriers, and these wanted Ryanair to be put out of their way.

[LX-LGX]

Valencia is not the first to try and be smarter than Ryanair. I remember Rimini trying it also. Rimini is no longer on the Ryanair map, and has remained a small provincial airport, with mostly Russian charters. Travellers go with Ryanair to other airports around: Forli, Ancona, Treviso, Bologna. Who has lost most ?

Ryanair ! They've lost a route, a destination and lots of passengers.

Valencia wants more carriers and begins by throwing out one they already have - who will they get now ?

Valencia hasn't thrown out Ryanair. Ryanair has decided to pull out. Quite a difference, isn't it?

I think Ryanair was too successful for the local Spanish carriers, and these wanted Ryanair to be put out of their way.

Actually, it's Ryanair who always tries to prohibit competition to enter the market: Charleroi was an example, where they've asked local politicians, in charge of the airport, to set up a deal which was tailor made for them.

[luckyme]

LX-LGX, don't be giving out incorrect 'personal advice' please.

All booked passengers after nov 4 will be carried as normal. The Valencia base was already to be closed from 05/11-17/12 anyway so there are no tickets issued for those 6 weeks anyway. All EU regulations are observed. Routes operated by aircraft based outside of Valencia will operate as normal.

I presume you see no problem with the Comunitat Valenciana giving €12 million 'marketing support 'to Air Nostrum/Iberia when they do little or nothing for the Valencia region. €3 million per international route using small (empty) aircraft is rediculous. It's all about protectionism for the local airline who didn't like the competition. I'm sure they will pick up the lost passenger numbers next year after all...yeah right Ryanair didn't receive any money from Valencia up to now in any case.

Ryanair bring in guaranteed passenger numbers and high spending tourists which nobody can match. Airports around Europe are queing up for Ryanair especially with dropping passenger numbers everywhere, like it or not.

[LX-LGX]

LX-LGX, don't be giving out incorrect 'personal advice' please. All booked passengers after nov 4 will be carried as normal. The Valencia base was already to be closed from 05/11-17/12 anyway so there are no tickets issued for those 6 weeks anyway. All EU regulations are observed. Routes operated by aircraft based outside of Valencia will operate as normal.

luckyme, this is not the first time that Ryanair is not respecting EU-Regulation 261/2004. And I don't think that my advice is incorrect:

1) Unless what you are suggesting, there is no restriction in time, so all confirmed bookings - even those for 2009 - have to be honoured.

2) If your Valencia base is closed 05/11-17/12, the announcement that flights are cancelled there as from 04 Nov was just ment to impress other European airports, isn't it? You should have said "are cancelled as from 17 Dec".

3) Ryanair says: "passengers will receive a full refund from Ryanair". EU-Regulation 261/2004 however says: "passengers shall be offered the choice between refund or return flight". Repeat: passengers may choose what they want: refund or rerouting.

Article 5 from EU-Regulation 261/2004 says that, in case of cancellation of a flight, the passengers concerned shall be offered assistance by the operating air carrier in accordance with Article 8. This is the full text from that Article 8. Perhaps it's good that you take knowledge of it:

Article 8: Right to reimbursement or re-routing

1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall be offered the choice between:

(a) - reimbursement within seven days, by the means provided for in Article 7(3), of the full cost of the ticket at the price at which it was bought, for the part or parts of the journey not made, and for the part or parts already made if the flight is no longer serving any purpose in relation to the passenger's original travel plan, together with, when relevant,

- a return flight to the first point of departure, at the earliest opportunity;

(b) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at the earliest opportunity; or

(c) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at a later date at the passenger's convenience, subject to availability of seats.

2. Paragraph 1(a) shall also apply to passengers whose flights form part of a package, except for the right to reimbursement where such right arises under Directive 90/314/EEC.

3. When, in the case where a town, city or region is served by several airports, an operating air carrier offers a passenger a flight to an airport alternative to that for which the booking was made, the operating air carrier shall bear the cost of transferring the passenger from that alternative airport either to that for which the booking was made, or to another close-by destination agreed with the passenger.

I presume you see no problem with the Comunitat Valenciana giving €12 million 'marketing support 'to Air Nostrum/Iberia when they do little or nothing for the Valencia region. €3 million per international route using small (empty) aircraft is rediculous. It's all about protectionism for the local airline who didn't like the competition. I'm sure they will pick up the lost passenger numbers next year after all...yeah right. Ryanair didn't receive any money from Valencia up to now in any case. Ryanair bring in guaranteed passenger numbers and high spending tourists which nobody can match. Airports around Europe are queing up for Ryanair especially with dropping passenger numbers everywhere, like it or not.

For passengers with a confirmed booking on Ryanair-flights to/from Valencia, this dispute is totally irrelevant. The reason why their flight is cancelled is a dispute about airline funding. Trust you will agree with me that this is no excuse, as set out in (14) from EU-Regulation 261/2004: "...As under the Montreal Convention, obligations on operating air carriers should be limited or excluded in cases where an event has been caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken. Such circumstances may, in particular, occur in cases of political instability, meteorological conditions incompatible with the operation of the flight concerned, security risks, unexpected flight safety shortcomings and strikes that affect the operation of an operating air carrier..."

But then, I have to admit that my information was incorrect. I had to add this for the Ryanair-passengers:

Article 15: Exclusion of waiver

1. Obligations vis-à-vis passengers pursuant to this Regulation may not be limited or waived, notably by a derogation or restrictive clause in the contract of carriage.

2. If, nevertheless, such a derogation or restrictive clause is applied in respect of a passenger, or if the passenger is not correctly informed of his rights and for that reason has accepted compensation which is inferior to that provided for in this Regulation, the passenger shall still be entitled to take the necessary proceedings before the competent courts or bodies in order to obtain additional compensation.

Meaning: even if passengers for cancelled Valencia-bookings have already accepted the refund, they still can ask for a rerouting. Meaning: http://www.euclaim.nl or www.euclaim.be for group protest (and before you say I'm involved with them: the webmaster knows I'm not).

[airazurxtror]

Ryanair has warned its passengers in due time, and will refund them. I think it's just fair. One cannot expect Ryanair to present them with transportation on high-fare carriers, whose tickets cost five or ten times more than a FR ticket.
It's much more damaging when flights are cancelled at short notice, for exemple because of a wildcat strike, as is the current custom at BRU; or when the carrier stops all activity because he is bankrupt - already 30 such disparitions this year, with perhaps 20 more to come soon, according to Giovanni Bisignani (IATA) - like also, illo tempore, our beloved Sabena.
By the way, did the unfortunate Sabena passagers ever get their booking refund ? were they provided with an alternate transportation ? did the stranded abroad passengers get a free return ? I don't know, I am asking, just for the record. (I have not lost a penny with the Sabena fiasco, and I wouldn't lose anything either in a Brussels Airlines demise).

[jan_olieslagers]

Sorry to disagree, but (for as much as I understand) LX-LGX is right: sed lex dura lex. You may be right that the law isn't fair, but is that relevant? As to what can be expected from an airline: for myself I expect them to respect law.

The comparison to the Sabena demise isn't relevant either: at that time the present law didn't exist. Besides, we're not discussing an airline going bust in this case, neither Air Nostrum nor Ryanair.

From the sentiment I can quite agree with you; but it seems to me European law bases upon sentiments different from mine. Not for the first time, either...!

It seems obvious to me that the present law, as cited by LX-LGX, was meant to discourage airlines like Ryanair, or at least some of their practices. Protection of legacy flag carriers may well be one of the underlying intentions.

[airazurxtror]

The Ryanair conditions of transport, that you positively have to accept before making a reservation :

http://www.ryanair.com/site/FAQS/docs/EU261.pdf

If you find it unacceptable, unlawful or else, you don't book a FR flight.
I, and many other, find them fair, and I (frequently) book on FR.
It's as simple as that.

[website-info]

All,

if luckyme is right that the airport is closed for 6 weeks anyway, then this whole thread is just BS. Those affected (if any tickets were actually booked 4-7Nov) can get the refund, but I guess none have been issued as the planned closure of the airport was announced months ago for airports work.

So all I can gather is that this is just another "bash RYR" post by LX-LGX

thanks luckyme for being upfront about airport closures,

T

[jan_olieslagers]

all I can gather is that this is just another "bash RYR" post by LX-LGX

You call it "bashing" when he cites law?

[luckyme]

The number of passengers entitled to a re-routing will be minimal because most of the bookings made with Ryanair are closer to the departure date. Ryanair have given eight weeks notice so forward bookings won't be too significant. Any re-routings could be arranged easily enough through STN, MAD etc but most people will want refunds so they can arrange more convenient routings. However a refund is more than satisfactory given the amount of notice given.

We all know that EC 261/2004 is a joke especially with some airlines constantly overbooking by 10-20%, the document means different things depending on which language you read, €400 compensation on an airfare which could of cost little or nothing is clearly discriminatory etc etc. People see it (because of the way it is marketed) as a replacement for travel insurance and that's irresponsible. It's things like that which make people become disillusioned with the EU but that's another story.

I'm still waiting to hear if it's ok for one airline (Air Nostrum) to receive €10 million every year with no noticeable returns but because it's Ryanair it's disgraceful even if they pay for themselves by bringing in millions of tourists and actually helping a local economy. Visit Girona or Bergamo which were wasting away but now have a year round inflow with lots of new business developments ongoing.

It's also worth noting that Air Nostrum/Iberia fares suddenly reduce on the MAD-VLC the very same day (18/11) that Ryanair start the route. Watch the prices rise on the routes which Ryanair vacate. Air Nostrum's prices are 90% cheaper when they have Ryanair competition on the routes.

I won't be surprised to see Ryanair back in Valencia or Aeroport Castello http://www.aerocas.com after the loss becomes apparent. I hope for that, or someone else moves in so nobody suffers too much. It's a great city and region with a fantastic atmosphere.

Regards

[olivaflyer]

I have been reading this discussion with interest, as I frequently fly the Valencia-Stansted route, Valencia being my nearest airport in Spain, and have been dismayed that both Easyjet and Ryanair have now suspended flights - by the way, Ryanair had PLENTY of competition with Easyjet for this route, Easyjet only suspended their winter flights themselves at the end of September, and having the 2 airlines operating the same route kept prices down.

However, having monitored the availability of the Ryanair flights on its Website during the few weeks of indecision of the suspension/closure of the base, I've been very confused as to which flights actually DO exist.

As of today (Sunday 26th) flights between now and the end of the year are still being offered on the Website, flying what seems to be every other day during November and December, and every day over the Christmas holiday period, so hardly what they describe on their NEWS page as:

'*Ryanair will continue to operate a limited service to Valencia on a London (Stansted) based aircraft'

So if I booked now, would Ryanair still honour the flights as luckyme has suggested? The site is still offering services and offers for future flights to Valencia too. Does this mean Friday's announcement was a bluff and it's still going to carry on the service anyway? The announcement was pretty low key - I only knew because I was forwarded a link to the BBC article, and the booking screen gives no indication that any of these flights may not be available. But closing is closing, and flying every other day is not closing at all.........

Also, the price of the flights as been more than erratic - yesterday a flight back on the 22nd Dec was showing as £189 before taxes, today it is £49, strange or what?
I have in exasperation now booked to fly with Easyjet from Alicante, as I don't want to get involved in any hassle for refunds - I need to be in the UK in December, so have to be sure the flight will be honoured.

[eldibuk]

I presume you see no problem with the Comunitat Valenciana giving €12 million 'marketing support 'to Air Nostrum/Iberia when they do little or nothing for the Valencia region. €3 million per international route using small (empty) aircraft is rediculous. It's all about protectionism for the local airline who didn't like the competition. I'm sure they will pick up the lost passenger numbers next year after all...yeah right Ryanair didn't receive any money from Valencia up to now in any case.

I don't understand how you can compare what Air Nostrum means vs what Ryanair means for the Valencian Region. Must I remind you that Air Norstrum creates more than 2000 jobs for Valencians right here in Valencia while Ryanair probably creates less than one hundred jobs (it might even be less than 50) and lets not forget all the inderict jobs Air Nostrum creates in the region. In their press report ryanair states that Valencia is going to lose 750 jobs. Don't be naive to believe this. In Valencia airport Ryanair has less than hundred employees and I would even dare to say less than 50. Also the pilots based in Valencia for Ryanair are not going to lose their job and are just going to be relocated to another base of Ryanair.

Also Air Nostrum provides passengers in the Valencian region with the possibility to connect to the whole world thru the One World Alliance and has 18 direct destinations from Valencia while Ryanair has 21 direct connections. So again, stating that Ryanair provides more destinations is just not true.

I'm still waiting to hear if it's ok for one airline (Air Nostrum) to receive €10 million every year with no noticeable returns but because it's Ryanair it's disgraceful even if they pay for themselves by bringing in millions of tourists and actually helping a local economy. Visit Girona or Bergamo which were wasting away but now have a year round inflow with lots of new business developments ongoing.

Don't mistake, what Air Nostrum is getting here in Valencia, Ryanair is getting in many of there destinations in Spain (like Girona) and around Europe. Actually, I even think, that Ryanair is getting it in most of their destinations and has just put pressure lately to the few airports where they don't get any marketing support or a notable discount at that airport, like for example Alicante, Valencia, Dublin, .... . They announced somewhere in June that they were going to close those bases during November till somewhere mid December and all of that because these airport didn't give them any discount on the airport fares.
This kind of support is legal if it is in the interest of regional development (by European law). Again, if Ryanair is trying to get it it must be 100% legal, as Ryanair knows the rules quite well and all the little backdoors to get extra legal funds.
If Ryanair is blaming that they can't make profit in Valencia without this support they might rethink the fact of giving away tickets for 0EUR, 10EUR. I don't think any airline would be able to make profit when constantly giving away tickets at such bargain prices.

Ryanair bring in guaranteed passenger numbers and high spending tourists which nobody can match. Airports around Europe are queing up for Ryanair especially with dropping passenger numbers everywhere, like it or not.

Again i must disagree. I don't think Ryanair brings high spending tourists. I mean, looking at myself, who regularly flies with Raynair, I must say that I'm the antithesis of a high spending tourist. And when looking at the passengers that are in the plane when I fly with them I think I'm not the only one. Most of the passengers flying with Ryanair are young people, who don't sleep in high quality hotels but rather in hostals as this is cheaper. Also they will not eat in fancy restaurants. So honestly I don't think that all this passengers actually spend lots of money at their destination.

[airazurxtror]

So, Valencia does not need Ryanair - as Ryanair does not need Valencia either, Ryanair cancels its base there, both parties are satisfied, the case is straigthened.
Where is the problem ?

[regi]

Well Eldibuk,
when I raised this subject when Bruges promoted regular bus transport between Bruges and Charleroi to bring in the tourists, and I reacted by saying that kind of tourists don't bring in any profit - why should we as Brugian taxpayers be involved with it-
well, I got so much negative replies that I finally shut up.

Now we read the other side of the story where a traveller admits to be such a non spending tourist. ( which is your full right. I don't disrespect that kind of travel, but I don't want to pay for it and I don't want to have the burden of it in the form of extra busses, litter, crowding )

I hope that the members who reacted so bitterly against me will bow deeply and send me apologies - flowers are accepted as long as they are biological degradable.