Lufthansa acquiring Brussels Airlines

[BrightCedars]

But I think that a fleet with planes with 150+ seats are aircrafts which are too big for SN.

I think as well, but an A320 size aircraft is not to be excluded, and since there is the A319, it's relatively simple to add an A320 or later an A321 if needed.

I also believe the ERJ-170, 175 and even later 190 and 195 would be nice elements in the fleet.

[Airbus330lover]

Why would Brussels Airport care? They will be all to happy to start receiving more long haul destinations from Star Alliance and, on the other hand, encourage OW-members to maintain or maybe even expand their Brussels operations.

Although two alliances making BRU their continental Europe hub seems a little to much for a small airport as BRU.

*A has enough with FRA MUC and ZRH....
It's VERY bad news for BRU....
It's VERY good news for the "NIMBYS"

[BrightCedars]

On an afterthought, I'm not seeing SN's total fleet number evolve from the current almost 50.

There are so many routes where cooperation will reduce competition that less hardware will be needed, and some foreign hardware can also be used solely on certain routes. Eventually it is really the ratio of wide-body to narrow-body that I see evolving from the current 8% to around 20% in the coming 5 to 10 years. The rest being made up of 1 narrow-body family from Airbus or Boeing and 1 regional jet family probably from Canadair or Embraer.

[Conti764]

On an afterthought, I'm not seeing SN's total fleet number evolve from the current almost 50.

There are so many routes where cooperation will reduce competition that less hardware will be needed, and some foreign hardware can also be used solely on certain routes. Eventually it is really the ratio of wide-body to narrow-body that I see evolving from the current 8% to around 20% in the coming 5 to 10 years. The rest being made up of 1 narrow-body family from Airbus or Boeing and 1 regional jet family probably from Canadair or Embraer.

I assume the best routes are to be kept by the other alliance partners and SN will get the chance to upgrade its African network and the honor to fly to secondary airports in some certain countries, with support of the other alliance partners.

[Atlantis]

Before looking for possible new long haul traffic for Brussels Airport we have to look at the current traffic between Belgium and Germany. A lot of flights a day and the two players, LH and SN, are flying together ons some routes like HAM, MUC and FRA. LH will not allow competition so SN has to pull out of these routes, ticket price will increase like some members mentioned before.

I'm not sure if we will see that much the first two years. If LH will buy SN Airholding in the next two year they will buy it cheap because it will depend of the results of SN.

PS: The region around the airport is becoming more or less German: The Corporate Village is German, a part of the Diabolo and now Brussels Airlines.

[euroflyer]

...
1. Retirement of the 4 x BAe 146-200s that are around 20 years old
...
2. Retirement of the 4 x B737s (3 x 400 and 1 x 300) that are around 18 years old
...

Have a look at the age of the Avro's and the B737 flying today with LH and LH Cityline, many of them are close to 20 years as well, so I do not expect LH to replace the SN fleet too fast. They will not be shocked by this age

[euroflyer]

Embraer E170 or E175

Unlikely. LH has 30 orders, 30 options for the C-series.

Great developments for SN!

As far as I am aware the Embraer's on order by LH will mainly go to their 100% daughter Air Dolomiti and will be used from Malpensa to strengthen LH's position in the Italian market, some might go to Swiss as well.

[euroflyer]

.... LH will not allow competition so SN has to pull out of these routes, ...

Here I would not be so sure, think twice! We all know from the many discussions here in the forum that SN is operating with rather low costs. The situaton at LH is different here That is why they fight so hard to keep for example the salaries of pilots and other staff at their German subsidiaries like LH Cityline and eurowings lower than at LH itself. Here might be a chance for SN! If SN can operate the routes between Germany and Belgium cheaper than LH can do itself it would be logical for LH to give those routes completely to SN and use their metal on other, maybe more profitable routes. So I can see SN taking over at least all the traffic between BRU and HAM, HAJ, TXL, Stuttgart and MUC. The same might be the case for the flights to ZRH and GVA.

[Sparrow]

.... LH will not allow competition so SN has to pull out of these routes, ...

Here I would not be so sure, think twice! We all know from the many discussions here in the forum that SN is operating with rather low costs. The situaton at LH is different here That is why they fight so hard to keep for example the salaries of pilots and other staff at their German subsidiaries like LH Cityline and eurowings lower than at LH itself. Here might be a chance for SN! If SN can operate the routes between Germany and Belgium cheaper than LH can do itself it would be logical for LH to give those routes completely to SN and use their metal on other, maybe more profitable routes. So I can see SN taking over at least all the traffic between BRU and HAM, HAJ, TXL, Stuttgart and MUC. The same might be the case for the flights to ZRH and GVA.

Indeed euroflyer, but only a small remark. SN isn't flying between BRU and Stuttgart and BRU and Zurich.

Kind regards
Bavo

[Atlantis]

.... LH will not allow competition so SN has to pull out of these routes, ...

Here I would not be so sure, think twice! We all know from the many discussions here in the forum that SN is operating with rather low costs. The situaton at LH is different here That is why they fight so hard to keep for example the salaries of pilots and other staff at their German subsidiaries like LH Cityline and eurowings lower than at LH itself. Here might be a chance for SN! If SN can operate the routes between Germany and Belgium cheaper than LH can do itself it would be logical for LH to give those routes completely to SN and use their metal on other, maybe more profitable routes. So I can see SN taking over at least all the traffic between BRU and HAM, HAJ, TXL, Stuttgart and MUC. The same might be the case for the flights to ZRH and GVA.

Keep on dreaming, instead of giving flights to SN they will cut some European flights.
The fleet of LH is that different then Sn's fleet that they will fly allways cheaper as SN, look at HAM.

Don't expect too much and surely not many new European flights.

[airazurxtror]

In "Le Soir" this morning, page 19.

About the Lufthansa possible purchase of Brussels Airlines, after that of Swiss Airlines.

Says Urs Eischer, from the union of the "Swiss" cabin crew members :
As regards the personnel, one has to admit that the working conditions are now tougher (after the arrival of Lufthansa). The contracts have remained swiss, but they ask more from the personnel. We are requested to work more and earn less. We are 15 to 20 % less costly than the Lufthansa cabin crew. We have the lowest salaries amongst all the European legacy carriers ...

[Darjeeling]

It can't be any tougher for BruAir's crews as they are already flying well above their contract's hours, and on the very limits of the BCAA's and EU ops' limitations and acceptance. Swiss crews were in another world.

[kiwiandrew]

In "Le Soir" this morning, page 19.

About the Lufthansa possible purchase of Brussels Airlines, after that of Swiss Airlines.

Says Urs Eischer, from the union of the "Swiss" cabin crew members :
As regards the personnel, one has to admit that the working conditions are now tougher (after the arrival of Lufthansa). The contracts have remained swiss, but they ask more from the personnel. We are requested to work more and earn less. We are 15 to 20 % less costly than the Lufthansa cabin crew. We have the lowest salaries amongst all the European legacy carriers ...

but at least they still have jobs - that is more than can be said for the many ex employees of airlines that failed to adapt to changing conditions and bellied-up

[Coppelia]

Well, as an ex-VEX cabin crew, I don't have to complain on my working conditions since the merger.

Less duty times, more rest times, a lot of night stops "secs"... and a far more decent salary.

So here we are talking about cabin crew conditions, but it's true that cockpit crews have much heavier working conditions.

Going a bit off topic I think But I wonder what will be our working conditions in the future with LH in the game.

[itami]

It's VERY bad news for BRU....

Unfortunately that's the truth in a nutshell !
Quite an uncomfortable situation for SN if you ask me. It looks like choosing between pest and cholera : SN urgently needs an investor to survive and an alliance to expand. But there’s a problem : on one hand Star Alliance doesn’t absolutely need SN while LH is exclusively interested (mainly to counter the threat of an important Oneworld hub at its backyard). On the other hand Oneworld needs SN but, till now, no one seems to be willing or able to invest to get SN on board. Of course LH will enable SN to survive and to boost its African network. But I’m afraid the most delicious parts of the turkey will remain in Germany thus downgrading BRU and SN respectively to a feeder airport and feeder airline for the existing Star Alliance hubs.

[euroflyer]

Indeed euroflyer, but only a small remark. SN isn't flying between BRU and Stuttgart and BRU and Zurich.
Kind regards
Bavo

Not yet, I know, but I see a good chance for them to do so in the future "on behalf of" LH/SN as code share flights. As long as this wil be cheaper for LH, you canbe quite sure SN will get the job. Same might happen on other *Alliance code share routes. If SN can offer "a good price" for example to CPH or ARN I can see them flying quite a few of the likely future code-share flights with SK.

I would be a bit more positive than some here in the forum. There are chances for a positive development even in Europe for SN. BRU will for sure not become the most important *Alliance hub, but it will be a small one, might be better than wha you have today and certainly much more than what some others have to face in this business

[Conti764]

It's VERY bad news for BRU....

Unfortunately that's the truth in a nutshell !
Quite an uncomfortable situation for SN if you ask me. It looks like choosing between pest and cholera : SN urgently needs an investor to survive and an alliance to expand. But there’s a problem : on one hand Star Alliance doesn’t absolutely need SN while LH is exclusively interested (mainly to counter the threat of an important Oneworld hub at its backyard). On the other hand Oneworld needs SN but, till now, no one seems to be willing or able to invest to get SN on board. Of course LH will enable SN to survive and to boost its African network. But I’m afraid the most delicious parts of the turkey will remain in Germany thus downgrading BRU and SN respectively to a feeder airport and feeder airline for the existing Star Alliance hubs.

I am still in believe BRU will pull the Oneworld card rather then the Star Alliance card, especially if 9W will join the alliance or, at least, strengthen their ties with the only lasting alliance not having an Indian carrier. SN might not have a choice, but BRU does.
Oneworld becomes more and more visible troughout the airport. The only major Oneworld hub at close distance is LHR and that airport gets more saturated every week. Although it lacks a OW European homecarrier I could see it develop to a reliever hub for Oneworld with good connections on bigger planes to the other European Oneworld hubs LHR (BA) and MAD (IB).
And who knows, maybe Jet Airways will take the old plans of basing planes for a European network at BRU of the shelf again.

Brussels Airlines at BRU is by far not Sabena at BRU (or KLM in AMS, LH in FRA, AF in CDG,...), the relationship between them both is not as tight as your average airport/home carrier relationship.

[itami]

Conti764, to a certain extend I share your doubts.
In the meantime there have been several semi-official announcements and comments about a possible deal with LH, but (to my knowledge) not one word about the option for a membership of Star Alliance ! Quite strange if you ask me. 9W simply continues to add more flights through BRU while SN continues advertising for double bonus miles on 9W flights as if nothing happened. On the other hand I don’t see 9W boosting its hub at BRU without home carrier SN. Theoretically SN can join Oneworld under the financial wings of LH but practically that’s utopia. And why is Oneworld that silent till now ? Indeed it got quite misty over BRU last days…

[fc82091]

Maybe they assume its an all knowing fact sn will join *alliance when lufthansa takes it share in the airline.
To be honest i don't see why BRU would play such an important role in the alliance fight. Its not like any of the alliances realy need BRU as hub.
Or am i so wrong here ?

[Acid-drop]

But I’m afraid the most delicious parts of the turkey will remain in Germany thus downgrading BRU and SN respectively to a feeder airport and feeder airline for the existing Star Alliance hubs.

Exactly ... it's extremely dangerous for BRU. I don’t see any other scenario possible.
But has BRU airport anything to say about BRU airlines? They might see their death coming but are unable to do anything...

And LH could do like air france, having their own high speed train to link BRU to their hub (2h20). Dangerous !