Solution for Belgian pilots?

tolipanebas · Post by **tolipanebas** » 03 Oct 2007, 16:52

I haven't been following this discussion because people just keep repeating themselves and post all sorts of 'facts and figures' which more than half of the time are way off, but now there seems to be some doubt about whether this remarks in relation to additional 737/A320 from SN are true or not, so I step in.

I can confirm that SN's management has indeed said in an internal mail (sort of a bi-weekly 'what's going on inside our company?' e-letter) that a recent capacity study of last summer has shown they need more 150 seaters (what a surprise

) and that as a consequence they will ask the permission from the shareholders to start seeking 3 A320s or 737s, which should join the fleet for next summer season.

They point out however that no permission has been received yet, and that as a consequence of the failed integration of VEX and DAT into 1 single AOC, any such addition will mean that for one category (either DAT or VEX) the addition will have no positive carriere consequences, but that for the other category, it would give more oportunities.

That's all.

I suppose what happened here was that Geert CEO picked up this last line and spinned it into a positive measure to show what effords SN is doing to retain its pilots during an interview on pilot shortage, but once again forgot how ridiculous his argument would sound when taken out of the context as DM did.

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 03 Oct 2007, 19:23

Guys guys guys

wrong thread --->

sn-adding-medium-haul-aircrafts-t23228.html

Here it's about Belgian airlines and governement measures helping them, not about B.air.

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 04 Oct 2007, 12:24

I just read on the news that FR is signing a contract with BFS (Belgian Flight School) based in Charleroi to provide them 400 new pilots.

Great news!

http://www.demorgen.be/dm/nl/geld/economie/603369

pressman · Post by **pressman** » 05 Oct 2007, 02:16

FLY4HOURS.BE wrote:I just read on the news that FR is signing a contract with BFS (Belgian Flight School) based in Charleroi to provide them 400 new pilots.

Great news!

http://www.demorgen.be/dm/nl/geld/economie/603369

Thats the greatest load of rubbish I've ever heard - Ryanair do nothing exclusive with anyone , especially a two bit school like BFS .

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 05 Oct 2007, 05:45

especially a two bit school like BFS

BFS has over 20 airplanes spread over 4 bases and is with that the biggest PPL training provider in Belgium, they have a real potential.
There is even more than Ryanair, I actually know a bit more about it (a good friend of mine is training there and rumours within the industry), but I ain't gonna post that here

Anyways, all I can say is that BFS is about to become a big player on the European market for pilot training, and that you can consider this deal as very probable.

FR is going to increase its base to 14 aircraft in the next 4 years

pressman · Post by **pressman** » 05 Oct 2007, 12:06

PPL training isn't going to supply FR with too many pilots , Ryanair have always and will always take pilots from any school in europe , they have no exclusivity agreements with anyone and they never will , this is just a press release designed to sell more ATPL courses , I have no doubt that BFS have in the past and will in the future have guys going to FR , the bit that annoys me is the "exclusive agreement" bit . Absolute rubbish . You have a friend at BFS ? Well I have friends at East Midlands Training and perhaps I work there as well from time to time .
I just hate to see students fed a load of lies by flight schools regarding their connections with Airlines , BFS are by no means the only ones to say stuff like this , most of them are guilty of telling potential students a load of crap to get their money .

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 05 Oct 2007, 16:47

Yes I know that is a form of marketing.

I also heard they are seeking some partnership with Delta Flight training in Florida... but that students haven't seen anything of it yet.

The lack of pilots will reach a peak by 2011-2012 and continue thereafter . Many are already securing their staff to cope with those problems: Air France and Netjets for instance have set up huge recruiting campaigns, BA are working closely with OAT,etc...

I hope this BFS-Ryanair deal goes through and that it is not just pure "student-keeping" policy, as you say, this might also be a possibility.

We'll know more in the next few months I guess.

TUB001 · Post by **TUB001** » 05 Oct 2007, 17:05

BFS seeks all they can. It is everything but a serious school (OK, they do all their best do show themselves as a professional school, but when you know more than the outside appearance, gosh, you wouldn't believe this article!)..

Omikros · Post by **Omikros** » 05 Oct 2007, 18:47

A solution for Belgian Pilots?

If Geert Sciot, from Brussel Airlines Communications' department, is right they will probably ask the Belgian Gouvernment to reduce taxes on the salary of pilots like in France or Holland.

'In Holland and France, the pilots earn brutto as much as in Belgium, but net they keep more than 30% of the Belgian pilots. That's why we're going to ask the new Belgian gouvernment to change those high taxes', said Mr. Sciot.

article: http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/?id=22434 (in dutch)

I hope he's right, that will satisfie a lot of Belgian pilots!

fcw · Post by **fcw** » 05 Oct 2007, 19:55

Omikros wrote:A solution for Belgian Pilots?

If [edit: name censored as by personal request], from Brussel Airlines Communications' department, is right they will probably ask the Belgian Gouvernment to reduce taxes on the salary of pilots like in France or Holland.

'In Holland and France, the pilots earn brutto as much as in Belgium, but net they keep more than 30% of the Belgian pilots. That's why we're going to ask the new Belgian gouvernment to change those high taxes', said Mr. [edit: name censored as by personal request].

article: http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/?id=22434 (in dutch)
I hope he's right, that will satisfie a lot of Belgian pilots!

Did he want you to remove his name because he didn't want to be qutoted saying BruAir will double the gross salaries to match Holland and France?

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 05 Oct 2007, 20:07

fcw wrote:Did he want you to remove his name because he didn't want to be qutoted saying BruAir will double the gross salaries to match Holland and France?

Please feel free to go work in Holland or France, and cash in that double salary.

fcw · Post by **fcw** » 05 Oct 2007, 20:09

LX-LGX wrote:
fcw wrote:Did he want you to remove his name because he didn't want to be qutoted saying BruAir will double the gross salaries to match Holland and France?
Please feel free to go work in Holland or France, and cash in that double salary.

I did, I voted with my feet and it is MORE than double!

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 07 Oct 2007, 20:47

fcw wrote:
LX-LGX wrote:
fcw wrote:Did he want you to remove his name because he didn't want to be qutoted saying BruAir will double the gross salaries to match Holland and France?
Please feel free to go work in Holland or France, and cash in that double salary.
I did, I voted with my feet and it is MORE than double!

So that explains all your anti-Brussels Airlines posts - and also how we have to regard them: you're working for the competition.

TUB001 · Post by **TUB001** » 07 Oct 2007, 20:57

Well... if fcw has been inside Bru Air, he probably knows better than anyone else absolutely not involved in more than "bla bla bla" about the matter...

Sorry, I know this is an aviation forum, but it's a bit too easy to comment on things that do not change anything to your REAL life...

fcw · Post by **fcw** » 08 Oct 2007, 15:26

LX-LGX wrote:
fcw wrote:
LX-LGX wrote: Please feel free to go work in Holland or France, and cash in that double salary.
I did, I voted with my feet and it is MORE than double!
So that explains all your anti-Brussels Airlines posts - and also how we have to regard them: you're working for the competition.

I wouldn't call BruAir: "competition"
You are playing the man and not the ball LX, not your style...
The way you defend BruAir is pathetic for somebody who pretends not being a BruAir manager, I reminds me even of that Iraqi minister of information!
BACK ON TOPIC:
I am still very concerned about a lot of friends working for them though, and I would be happy if a solution could be found for belgian pilots.The low gross salaries are an important part of the problem. Denying this and only blaming taxes will not help the pilots, that is what I was trying to say in my post.

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 08 Oct 2007, 17:18

fcw wrote:I wouldn't call BruAir: "competition".

If you are working in Holland or France, Brussels Airlines is competition to your actual employer. And thus to you.

fcw wrote:The way you defend BruAir is pathetic for somebody who pretends not being a BruAir manager, I reminds me even of that Iraqi minister of information!.

The managers from Brussels Airlines are all gone here because every post about their airline ends up with you (or one of your companions) bashing the airline. Actually, I've always been at the other side: buying tickets, spending time at the check-in desk, sitting in the back of the plane, talking to (cabin) crew, negociating with Sales, ... I'm not defending Brussels Airlines: I'm replying to the nonsense that others write about that airline.

The webmaster knows I have never been a SN or DAT or whatever-airline employer. I'm sure he would correct this if I was lying.

fcw wrote:The low gross salaries are an important part of the problem. Denying this and only blaming taxes will not help the pilots, that is what I was trying to say in my post.

Talking about Iraq's ministry of information, this one can count. The gross salary is totally irrelevant here. It's the nett salary that counts for the pilots. And for the airline, it's the total salary cost, thus gross plus all additional social charges. The calculation has been done before: a Ryanair-pilot earns nett about the double of a Brussels Airlines-pilot, but the total salary cost for Brussels Airlines is more expensive then at Ryanair.

So far, most pilots here only kick around, bash management, bash government, insult luchtzak-members who disagree with them. Pilots must show arrogance in the cockpit = it's good everybody on board knows they are in charge, they are the only captain on the ship, they take the decisions. However, it's a pity that this arrogance isn't staying in the cockpit when you're on the ground. Only when you and your previous colluegues start to understand (like AEA by the way) that a solution only can come from the governement, there's a way out. Instead of insulting management that they have to increase gross salaries, you should join forces with them to obtain a tax friendly solution from the government.

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 08 Oct 2007, 17:59

a Ryanair-pilot earns nett about the double of a Brussels Airlines-pilot, but the total salary cost for Brussels Airlines is more expensive then at Ryanair

.

We think that we all know that Belgium has very expensive tax policies, but this is a wrong information:

Ryanair:

Eurozone nett salaries

Captains
Up to €130,000

First Officers (1,500 hrs)
Up to €80,000

B.air:

Captains
Up to €72000

First Officers
Up to €36000

You want the netjet figures too?

you should join forces with them to obtain a tax friendly solution from the government.

Forget about it, it is 15 years now that student-pilots have been paying VAT on their training, without the governement doing anything about it.
If that is so difficult to regulate, then a tax-scale review is not for this era.

Gliderpilot · Post by **Gliderpilot** » 08 Oct 2007, 18:06

Actually I'm interested in the netjets figures, can you give them as well?
thx

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 08 Oct 2007, 21:17

Netjets:

Starting basic salary for year 0 pilots
Rank Starting salary
Captain – PIC €95,000
First Officer – SIC €56,500

Per diems
Both Captains and First Officers will receive €70 per work day. This covers all duty days that the pilot is away from home including training, standby and positioning days.

Captain (PIC)
Years of Service at rank CPS bonus
Year 3 and 4 = €3,000
Year 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 = €6,000
Year 10, 11, 12 + = €10,000

First officer (SIC)
Years of Service at rank CPS bonus
Year 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 + = €1,500

The pilot’s contractual entitlement is for 187 days off per year. This consists of 165 days off and 22 days annual leave.

http://www.netjetseurope.com/data/eng/p ... efits.html

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 08 Oct 2007, 23:36

FLY4HOURS.BE wrote:
a Ryanair-pilot earns nett about the double of a Brussels Airlines-pilot, but the total salary cost for Brussels Airlines is more expensive then at Ryanair
.

We think that we all know that Belgium has very expensive tax policies, but this is a wrong information ...

Here we go again. As usual, you react to my post without having read it. Actually, you're saying I'm giving "wrong information", but your information on the nett salaries is simply confirming my post (that is, if we agree that 13.000 is about the double of 7.200). But then, off course, you are once again trying to discuss about something that is not the issue here: the nett salary. The reason why it's impossible for Brussels Airlines to increase the nett is because of the total salary cost (gross plus the extremely high additional social charges). So do your homework again: start with the nett salaries and then calculate the total salary cost. Repeat: do not calculate the gross salary, that's nice to know but not relevant here.

I've already done it, and guess what: total salary cost for a Brussels Airlines pilot, earning 7.300 nett is a bit higher then for a Ryanair-pilot, earning 13.000 nett.