SN adding medium haul aircrafts

[euroflyer]

Yes but the best business plan would recquire B.air to have its own planes. How many millions don't they give away yearly to the leasing companies?
Even credit is cheaper than lease if you think short & long term.
Why don't they request a credit to the banks and see who comes up with the best offer?

Well, if you want ot get a credit, you need "securities" to show to the bank to convince them to give you the money I am not sure the plane itself would be sufficient, or better: I am sure the plane itself is not enough You of course have to show a valid and convincing business plan and some success in your business so far.

Beside this, I am not sure about owning your own planes and taking credits is really better than leasing, there are a lot of tax issues etcetera involved and I am quite sure except for a few people in the finance and accounting department (hopefully including the CFO ) not many will be able to make the decision which is better, because we do not have the necessary figures ...

[FLY4HOURS.BE]

I just checked their fleet background and at least 4 of their B737's and 3 of their A333's are their own aircraft.
This might be a good warranty for the first 10-15 SSJ's, at the condition that they don't have any other loans, that is.

Most of the rest seems to be leased...
Actually it's almost a virtual airline...

[BrightCedars]

I don't know about the B737s but I highly doubt that any of the A330s is owned by SN. They were leased by an interim company (the CityBird people) for the first years of African operations, and I'm pretty sure the leases were absorbed with the acquisition of that entity.

They surely remain (only) leases.

[BrightCedars]

One might add that adding a few (3) 737s (be it Classics or NGs) or A320 family aircraft, isn't going to help the bottom line in focusing the medium haul or short haul higher capacity fleet getting more rational. For a total fleet of 16 (I think I'm right to believe they have 10 737s and 3 A319s at present), you ought to build it around one single type.

Make that all A32x or B73x but please do stop the nonsense cocktail.

If they don't have the means to even plan the training of their air and ground crews to a single type that will bring substantial economies, how are they even considering renewing their fleet one day or another?

That is until we all get surprised with an order, of course

[tolipanebas]

Just to clear up some confusion about what planes DAT/Brusselsfly/SNAirholdingII actually owns:

it owns the BAe146 (excluding the engines)... THAT's it.

[AirDupont]

I think 1 737 as well, the OO-VBR....

[tolipanebas]

I am not 100% sure about the planes which came in from VEX (now officially called BrusselsAirlinesFly), so they could actually own some, although I'd be surprised to learn they own more than one.

So oo-vrb is company owned then? Interesting.

As to DAT, they do not own anything in their fleet but what I have come to say and definitely no A319s or A330s!

[FLY4HOURS.BE]

My source is Airfleets, and there is no mention for instance of any leasing on the ex-madrid OO-SFW that joined the fleet this year, although SFN is on the leasing list.

Some Bae's are on a leasing company's name, I'm not sure if everything.

There are those 3 B737's ex-VEX who don't mention any leasing and that they were owned by VEX, of which VRB is one of them.

Anyone know exact numbers?

[tolipanebas]

My source is Airfleets.

There are known to be not always correct or up to date.

However, I think it is possible to check with the BCAA for up to date information as to who is the official owner of the plane.

Anyway, even then it is not always that obvious whether or not the aircraft is actually owned or just leased, as sometimes an airline sets up a leasing company to officially hold the ownership for them (fiscal reasons)

Some Bae's are on a leasing company's name, I'm not sure if everything.

I think those are a good exemple of what I have come to explain above.
These planes regularly change ownership, yet I am pretty sure all of them are owned by SN (some through a self-set-up lessor) others in direct ownership and they are the only assets DAT NV/SA holds; the rest of the fleet on the DAT AOC is leased.

[spotter1102]

There are those 3 B737's ex-VEX who don't mention any leasing and that they were owned by VEX, of which VRB is one of them.

Anyone know exact numbers?

It's OO-VBR

[brussels airlines]

So here you can read an article from Luchtvaartnieuws.nl
http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/?ID=22434

-They are choosing for Airbus 319 or Boeing 737
-The fleet expansion is needed because two BAe146 are leaving to Africa AND on some routes e.g. Vienna they need more capacity.
-They are NOT expanding to make the pilots feel better.

So it has to be done with that idiot discussion of pure speculation that they are expanding to make the pilots feel better.

[FLY4HOURS.BE]

Again leasing...
Poor people.

Why doesn't anyone invest in this airline?

If they've got the money, they will be able to buy the right aircraft to make profits and consequently pay their pilots better. The only ones winning in this story right now are only the lessors...

I'm sure that one of the reasons of having no investors is the Sabena drama.
But I know that in Japan and US for instance, banks are ready to give any serious business a chance by giving it the money for it. Interests are low there, so why not try that? I know dozens of banks who would give B.air a good loan, without problems.
Let the rich people get involved.

So it has to be done with that idiot discussion of pure speculation that they are expanding to make the pilots feel better.

The article says it is not the reason, but it certainly is A reason.

[LX-LGX]

Again leasing... Poor people.

Yesterday, Oman Air has ordered six 787 Dreamliners. All six planes will be leased from Alafco. Delivery: 2012, 2014, 2015. I didn't heard you're saying "Oman is a poor company", all leases", ... No, only when it's about Brussels Airlines, you have such negative (and ungrounded) comments.

The only ones winning in this story right now are only the lessors....

You should try to spend some time with people who are involved with leasing planes. I know one (no, not SN-people) and it was quite a surprise to see that it's a 200% different approach then leasing a car from Leaseplan or KBC Lease. Companies like Alafco, ILFC, Boullion make all parties involved a winner: manufacturer, airline, themselves.

I know dozens of banks who would give B.air a good loan, without problems. Let the rich people get involved.

With such good banking contacts, you really should apply as new Financial Director (don't rush: Etienne Davignon is at his 75th birthday party right now).

The article says it is not the reason, but it certainly is A reason.

NO ! I've just read the article again and again and again, and I really don't find your "a reason". At the contrary, G.S. says: "for pilots, a licence for a 737 or 320 is more interesting then one for a BAe146, but off course that is not the reason to add these planes to our fleet". “Een licentie om te vliegen op de 737 of A320 is voor piloten interessanter dan een licentie voor op de BAe 146, maar dat is natuurlijk niet de reden om extra van deze toestellen aan de vloot toe te voegen.”

- - -

Luchtzak-member brussels airlines has just posted: "So it has to be done with that idiot discussion of pure speculation that they are expanding to make the pilots feel better." He is damned right. Only people with a hidden agenda, or competition, or bad faith persist with this Brussels Airlines bashing.

[SN1203]

Like a very good B787 for Jetairfly...?

Sad for Bru Air indeed, but they just don't have money! We cannot expect enormeous things in the near future for them. Near future not to say future, quite simply...

Very mature, TUB001! Somebody just attacked 'your' OO-TUC so why not use whatever opportunity in the same topic to bash your colleagues from Brussels Airlines.

It's not your first time, and it certainly won't be your last time. I hope you're more professional in your duties at JAF.

@LX-LGX: very well put, but some people just love to stick to their own dreamworld.

[FLY4HOURS.BE]

With such good banking contacts, you really should apply as new Financial Director

For who? A company that has no funds?
If SQ asked me that I would do it for free!

I'm no B.air basher, but anyone knows that there are a few strategy problems with B.air.

NO ! I've just read the article again and again and again, and I really don't find your "a reason".

They are not stupid enough to say that publicly. The big answer there is : Why the hell were the pilots the first to be informed? Because they are the first one who should have known about it

Yesterday, Oman Air has ordered six 787 Dreamliners. All six planes will be leased from Alafco

Well, because that is a wise investment. Is leasing 30 Avro's a wise investment? I hardly think so. If those were all A318/A319's it would be another story. The leased A330 for example, are a wise investment.

Plus, Oman Air is also a bad example, they have the oil behind it, the company is 80% owned by the State, they don't need to save every penny like B.Air.

Companies like Alafco, ILFC, Boullion make all parties involved a winner: manufacturer, airline, themselves.

At the same time, they rip them off millions an millions of dollars. Otherwise Steven F. Udvar-Hazy who started with nothing wouldn't have been on the list of richest people on earth.
And I understand your "different-from-car-lease" approach: A plane is built for 30 years. A car can't be leased for more than 5 years.
Plane-leasing is alot more interesting than car-leasing.

You know why I'm scared about leasing? Because the day you have more expenses than accumulated profits and no money, you are done. There ain't no chapter 11 if you see what I mean.

[brussels airlines]

People, I can assure you Brussels Airlines HAS a management who knows where they are bussy with (Weten waar ze mee bezig zijn).

What they DON'T HAVE is millions or billions of euros from big investors, WHY NOT ?: Because nobody believes in Belgian aviation, even not here.

I think Brussels Airlines will be taken over in about 2-3 years by one of the big alliances. This good for the money.

[FLY4HOURS.BE]

I think Brussels Airlines will be taken over in about 2-3 years by one of the big alliances. This good for the money

What makes B.air interesting for a sale?
They have no funds, no assets, no handling, no operations.
Only the staff and a pile of leasing contracts.
I think that if anyone wants to take over BRU, they will do it without the help of B.air.

People, I can assure you Brussels Airlines HAS a management who knows where they are bussy with

Yes I think we all agree with that, but this is getting people nervous. There's alot of talks, little results.
In the meanwhile pilots keep leaving, no big step has been made since the problems were announced in May, to the point that we got a F*kker 100 doing the job.

May I remind you also that in 2010-2011, FR expects to have at least 14 Acft based in Charleroi?

I hope B.air bites its way out of this. After all, they are employing a huge amount of people.

[Atlantis]

May I remind you also that in 2010-2011, FR expects to have at least 14 Acft based in Charleroi?

A couple of months ago I started a topic about the new fleet announcement of Brussels Airlines by next summer. So, don't worry, they know what they are doing.

Like a member said, Belgian aviation is not that simple. The golden years are over. No charter companies with B767 or MD 11's or a national carrier with a huge range of aircraft. All are gone: Sabena, City Brid, Sobelair, Constellation, Virgin.

The carriers we now have are doing fine. Jetairfly and Thomas Cook are increasing in numbers of aircraft or replace them with newer ones (Thomas Cook Airlines).

[SN1203]

Why the hell were the pilots the first to be informed? Because they are the first one who should have known about it

Who told you that the pilots were the 'first to be informed'? All Brussels Airlines staff were informed at the same time (as it should be). It is also a policy to inform your staff before you inform the press.

The introduction of additional 737/32S aircraft is indeed a nice bonus for the cockpit crews, however don't you think it would be a little insane to introduce expensive aircraft only to please your staff? Brussels Airlines lacks 150-seater capacity, and that is the only real reason to introduce additional aircraft.

There's alot of talks, little results.

The reason why you only see 'little results' is most probably because you lack the necessary info.

[teach]

Not trying to be a nitpicker here, but may I remind everyone that there is no such word as 'aircrafts'. One aircraft, two aircraft. No -s.