Sukhoi Superjet roll-out

SilverJET · Post by **SilverJET** » 27 Sep 2007, 21:34

Avro wrote:
smacDC-10 wrote:Have any of you guys ever been to Russia? Their standards are much lower to say the least. Russian aircraft don't compare to Western aircraft.
If it'll be operated by so called "western airlines" it will have to obtain the JAA certification !!

Regional Italian carrier ItAli Airlines placed an order for 10 of Sukhoi's Superjet 100 aircraft. No need the worry about certification, I believe.

Also a nice article, looks like Brussels Airlines belongs to the airline advisory board of European Airlines for this Superjet.http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... erjet.html

L-1011 · Post by **L-1011** » 28 Sep 2007, 12:02

Could the Superjet replace the Avro's one day?
As much as I'd love to see that I fear it won't happen. Mainly this is because the European consumer will fear the word Sukhoi and avoid those planes. So unless a big carrier, say AF/KL , LH, BA buys a significant amount of them, the acceptance will still be low in the public opinion, which really is a shame.

Long live the SSJ

Air Key West · Post by **Air Key West** » 29 Sep 2007, 23:14

I think the average air traveller never enquires who the manufacturer of the aircraft is on which they will be flying. They are not interested. All that people want is to be taken by plane (because it's fast and sometimes cheap) from point A to point B. Most travellers will not be able to tell the difference between (for instance) an A319, a B737 or even an EMB170. And I remember that several years ago some travellers were afraid of flying a Brazilian made aircraft (Embraer), because Brazil is synonymous for football and samba, not for safe aircraft. It has not prevented Embraer aircraft from becoming a success. I think the same could be true for Sukhoi.

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 30 Sep 2007, 01:16

Yes Air Key West is right,

The average traveller wouldn't care as far as the aircraft looks new, modern and spacey.
The thing most care about is the price, the convenience and speed at which they are taken from A to B.

These aircraft cost 20% (6-7million $) less than the Embraer and operational costs are 15%-20% lower.
If B.air decides to acquire these to replace the whole Avro fleet, they will definitely get great discounts.
Now that the dollar is cheap they could make great deals...why wait until next year?

galaxy · Post by **galaxy** » 30 Sep 2007, 10:24

L-1011 wrote: the European consumer will fear the word Sukhoi and avoid those planes.

Ask the consumer the difference between : " SUSHI and SUKHOI " and listen what they have to tell you. :yummie: :laugh:

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 30 Sep 2007, 12:09

... wrote:Most travellers will not be able to tell the difference between (for instance) an A319, a B737 or even an EMB170.

... wrote:I think the average air traveller never enquires who the manufacturer of the aircraft is on which they will be flying. They are not interested. All that people want is to be taken by plane (because it's fast and sometimes cheap) from point A to point B.

... wrote:Ask the consumer the difference between "SUSHI” and “SUKHOI" and listen what they have to tell you.

The same people who say that Brussels Airlines management is stupid / asleep / not capable to run the company, are now saying that “the average passenger” is also stupid / not interested in his travel conditions.

I had daily contacts during the last 20 years with these so called “average passengers”, and I can assure you that most of them do know what’s going on. There are indeed some passengers who think there are only two planes in the world: a Boeing and an Airbus. But then, there are also passengers who arrive at the check-in desk with a paper with a note: 21A/21B: they’ve found out that these are the exit seats on their charter plane.

Russian products are generally regarded here as unreliable. Repeat: generally regarded. As most luchtzakkers, I also know that this Sukhoi Superjet has probably more western than Russian components. But that’s not the issue: “generally regarded”, it remains a Russian plane. So LO-1011 is right:

L-1011 wrote: the European consumer will fear the word Sukhoi and avoid those planes.

Finally, let me remind you how bad informed one of the self appointed “which plane to buy” specialists is:

... wrote:I would not mind flying a modern Russian aircraft (see what's happening with Canadian made Dash 8 - Q400). As a passenger, what would make me avoid the aircraft is the economy class seat width (most airlines will opt for) which is only 16.23 inches (on Sukhoi's website) compared to 18.5 on the Embraer 170 family of aircraft... How can such development mistakes be made ?

Quote from http://sukhoi.superjet100.com/superjet1 ... r_comfort/ : "...while each seat is 18.31” wide..."

People making such "mistakes" themselves should better avoid to qualify management from making mistakes / being stupid.

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 30 Sep 2007, 17:15

Quote from http://sukhoi.superjet100.com/superjet1 ... r_comfort/ : "...while each seat is 18.31” wide..."

Yeah but that's due to a mistake on the other website, you can't blame him for that:
http://www.sukhoi.org/img/content/rrj/econom.jpg

There are indeed some passengers who think there are only two planes in the world: a Boeing and an Airbus

So the big question should be: Airbus Avro or Boeing Avro?

Air Key West · Post by **Air Key West** » 30 Sep 2007, 21:52

LX-LGX ; have you checked the hyperlink on the post just above ? Then, you will realize I have not made a mistake as you imply. I did not invent the 16.23 inches : it's on one of Sukhoi's web sites !!!! And you did not take the trouble to read the other posts just before them. Accusing people without reading their whole story, deserve a word of apology. And by the way, the correct English translation for ondernemingsraad is "works council", not enterprise board (LOL). Please, stop imposing YOUR English as being the only correct one. And by the way, I have never said the average passenger is stupid as you imply. I just said : they are not interested. If you are not interested in something it's because you're not interested, it doesn't mean you are stupid. There are probably many things YOU are not interested in, does that mean you are stupid ?

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 01 Oct 2007, 00:32

Air Key West wrote:LX-LGX ; have you checked the hyperlink on the post just above ? Then, you will realize I have not made a mistake as you imply. I did not invent the 16.23 inches : it's on one of Sukhoi's web sites !!!! And you did not take the trouble to read the other posts just before them. Accusing people without reading their whole story, deserve a word of apology. And by the way, the correct English translation for ondernemingsraad is "works council", not enterprise board (LOL). Please, stop imposing YOUR English as being the only correct one. And by the way, I have never said the average passenger is stupid as you imply. I just said : they are not interested. If you are not interested in something it's because you're not interested, it doesn't mean you are stupid. There are probably many things YOU are not interested in, does that mean you are stupid ?

The webmaster has advised us that all posts about ... will be transferred to the Luchtzak Pub, so it's useless to react.

Air Key West · Post by **Air Key West** » 01 Oct 2007, 12:10

OK, message clear : the Luchtzak Pub is in Birma.

regi · Post by **regi** » 01 Oct 2007, 13:16

If Sukhoi makes a mistake converting metric system to inches , I wonder about the safety. Many nuts and bolts are calculated in imperial system, also hydraulics, tubes, pneumatics...

With the very big problems of Boeing 737 in mind , where the fasteners are causing hair rising problems ( admitted by Boeing btw), I wonder where this story will lead to.

DFW · Post by **DFW** » 01 Oct 2007, 19:56

regi wrote:If Sukhoi makes a mistake converting metric system to inches , I wonder about the safety. Many nuts and bolts are calculated in imperial system, also hydraulics, tubes, pneumatics...

With the very big problems of Boeing 737 in mind , where the fasteners are causing hair rising problems ( admitted by Boeing btw), I wonder where this story will lead to.

I don't think this conversion mistake on the Sukhoi website means the engineering is questionable. Marketing websites are made by marketing people.

I'm looking forward to seeing the Superjet. It's a beautiful airplane with a distinctive look. And it's about time there was a competitor to the 737/320 duopoly.

grnkg · Post by **grnkg** » 01 Oct 2007, 22:34

Can it do the Cobra manoeuvre?

It is, after all, a Sukhoi... right?

Kind regards,
GR.

grnkg · Post by **grnkg** » 01 Oct 2007, 22:54

FLY4HOURS.BE wrote: These aircraft cost 20% (6-7million $) less than the Embraer and operational costs are 15%-20% lower.
If B.air decides to acquire these to replace the whole Avro fleet, they will definitely get great discounts.
Now that the dollar is cheap they could make great deals...why wait until next year?

I doubt Sukhoi will quote the price for this bird in USD. Large parts of the Eastern hemisphere tend to put more trust in the Euro already. Even Saudi Arabia considers to cut their currency loose from the USD. Will not be long before we'll see oil prices noted in Euro iso USD. At the moment it's already virtually happening: with every devaluation of the USD, the price of crude oil rises at the same rate.

If B.air decides on fleet renewal, those a/c will be on lease definately, as I doubt they have sufficient financial reserves to bear the investment. And if you buy 20-30 planes in a single order, discounts will be offered everywhere.

Kind regards,
GR.

sn-remember · Post by **sn-remember** » 02 Oct 2007, 16:15

About the seat width on the sukhoi:

Maybe lx-lgx, you should check the difference between the 2_2 seat config (1st class) and the 3-2 seats per row configuration (economy class).
Just a hint

And pls let us remain cool

FLY4HOURS.BE wrote: So the big question should be: Airbus Avro or Boeing Avro?

You know the A318 is only staring to sell well and I am sure it wins the average traveler's vote miles ahead of any avro.

Indeed the big question is to see how to raise the passenger satisfaction.
And the a/c choice is a big part of the stake (after the service on boardd of course)

However, aware of the financial realities, I would certainly consider the sukhoi as a solid candidate for b.air regional fleet replacement.
But with no special enthouisiasm because in my view, like the avro it is not appealing to the passenger.
By the way I flew recently on Embraer196 and was equally not impressed.

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 02 Oct 2007, 16:53

sn-remember wrote:About the seat width on the sukhoi: Maybe lx-lgx, you should check the difference between the 2_2 seat config (1st class) and the 3-2 seats per row configuration (economy class).

Actually, it wasn't me who had a problem with the seat width. But if you still want to go on about it:

1) even Airlinequality.com doesn't mention seat width: "...We have not included Seat Width in this table - this is largely due to considerable discrepancy between the way many airlines quote seat widths. Some provide the measurement between the inside of the armrests, others the distance between the middle of armrests etc."
http://www.airlinequality.com/Product/seats_global.htm

2) the seat width from the Superjet is clearly marked at the webpage that some say is wrong. But only off course if you want so see it, not if you're more interested in telling the world that Sukhoi management doesn't know their job because of a calculation/diversion error/problem.
http://www.sukhoi.org/img/content/rrj/econom.jpg
Just take the upper figures you'll see and divide it by the number of seats: 62,80" for a 3-row or 42,60" for a 2-seat-row. Seat width at the Superjet thus is 20,93" to 21,30". The so called extremely small seat width of 16,23" is without arm rests.

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 02 Oct 2007, 18:44

Some of you should just read page 1 of this thread the whole explanation is there about the 16.23inch-18.23 inch mistake on the website.

The SSJ will feature seat width of 18.23-18.31 inch in economy.

It's just funny to see you guys trying to figure out the mistake.

Superjet thus is 20,93" to 21,30". The so called extremely small seat width of 16,23" is without arm rests.

So you gonna put a gearbox between the seats ?

FLY4HOURS.BE wrote:

So the big question should be: Airbus Avro or Boeing Avro?

You know the A318 is only staring to sell well and I am sure it wins the average traveler's vote miles ahead of any avro.

You haven't got it have you?
It was a joke : during their flights actual B.air pax should be asking themselves whether Avro RJ's are Airbus or Boeing aircraft...

They just don't know, and finally they don't care.

A318's are too expensive compared to the SSJ.
It is obvious that SSJ is a better candidate for B.air

smacDC-10 · Post by **smacDC-10** » 02 Oct 2007, 20:56

I don't understand why some of the contributers here can't wake up and acknowledge that Russian aircraft crash on a regular basis? I don't care what this thing looks like or that it is a knock off of a boeing/airbus. I lived in Russia and witnessed first hand a very backwards system thats horribly corrupt. My God, baggage handlers in that country will take bribes and load cargo without telling the pilots! I will only fly Western built aircraft were the standards are proven to be high.

Gliderpilot · Post by **Gliderpilot** » 02 Oct 2007, 21:31

@smacDC-10: So why would everyone buy Embraer? Brazil isn't that safe either: GOL 737 mid-air collision, TAM A320 runway overrun,...

euroflyer · Post by **euroflyer** » 02 Oct 2007, 21:32

smacDC-10 wrote:I don't understand why some of the contributers here can't wake up and acknowledge that Russian aircraft crash on a regular basis? I don't care what this thing looks like or that it is a knock off of a boeing/airbus. I lived in Russia and witnessed first hand a very backwards system thats horribly corrupt. My God, baggage handlers in that country will take bribes and load cargo without telling the pilots! I will only fly Western built aircraft were the standards are proven to be high.

I cannot approve or disapprove your statement about Russian built aircraft to crash more often than Western built Aircraft (but I have my doubts), because I have not seen a comparable and reliable statistic on this. By the way, I guess the majority of planes you have in mind are not really "Russian" built, but "Soviet built", but that is another story ...

However, you give the answer to the probelm yourself in your post

: It is not the planes (if it is at all

), it is the conditions under which they are operated, if baggage handlers load cargo for bribes without telling (I have no doubts about that

), I do not want to know what technicians or pilots or controllers or ... do

). If these planes would be operated in the EU with the European safety standards I would expect much much less problems.

I would have no problem to fly a modern, new SSJ with B.Air. On the contrary I have sometimes my doubts if I board one of those reliable B737's which you can meet everywhere in Europe (LH, B.Air, Aegean, AirOne, ...) which already show their age and you can than check the registration and find out they were built in the early 80s or so, hm ...

I fully agree on this point with fly4hours.be: ask any ordinary passenger tomorrow on the first Avro flight "which company did built this plane"? They will have no idea ... Airbus and Boeing is know by everybody, but who knows Embraer, Bombardier, BAe, Fokker, etcetera, etcetera ??
They do not care about this. They trust an airline, not a specific plane. Many pax will not even be able to say if any given plane is a B737 or an A319 if they sit inside and you take the card with the security instructions away on which the aircraft type is printed

.

On the first approach "Russian made" will probably be followed by a disucssion, but if more airlines will operate these planes, nobody will care anymore.