Again problems with Jetairfly's OO-TUC ?

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 04 Sep 2007, 07:08

update : arrival at 15h20

http://www.brusselsairport.be/nl/flight ... 0709041520

Air2D2 · Post by **Air2D2** » 04 Sep 2007, 07:21

Do we really believe what Jetair is saying in that newspaper story, that there was no other plane available? In the whole international TUI-fleet?? And do we really believe that the exchange part was blocked by customs, therefore causing another delay? No: it was cheaper to book them in an excellent (but cheap) tropical 5-star-hotel, rather then sending out a spare plane to bring them home.

When I see that Martinair had major delays last week, even when flying with various 767s in their fleet. When I see that Brussels Airlines recently also had flights with major delays or cancelled. And now this major delay with OO-TUC...
When you are convinced that planes are available, LX-LGX, then I think you could make good money offering them all backup planes, working on a commission

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 04 Sep 2007, 09:27

Air2D2 wrote:
Do we really believe what Jetair is saying in that newspaper story, that there was no other plane available? In the whole international TUI-fleet?? And do we really believe that the exchange part was blocked by customs, therefore causing another delay? No: it was cheaper to book pax in an excellent (but cheap) tropical 5-star-hotel, rather then sending out a spare plane to bring them home.
When I see that Martinair had major delays last week, even when flying with various 767s in their fleet. When I see that Brussels Airlines recently also had flights with major delays or cancelled. And now this major delay with OO-TUC...
When you are convinced that planes are available, LX-LGX, then I think you could make good money offering them all backup planes, working on a commission

I wouldn't call a delay of 2 days a delay: that's almost a cancellation. I don't know what happened to Martinair last week, but Thomas Cook Airlines Belgium had the same problem last week. At least, they have sent one (smaller) back up plane. Brussels Airlines usually sends a A319 to Africa when one of their A330's is stuck, and the rebook the remaining pax.

Thanks for your suggestion, but I won't be able to make a living by renting back up planes to touroperators or charters: they don't want to pay for it. They've calculated the package price with flights of their own, at 90% occupancy and with both legs filled up. When is Luzair called in? When there are at least 2 or 3 return flights to be done.

Jetair is also explaining the delay because the exchange part was withhold by customs. Why don't they tell us how how long it was blocked: 30 minutes or 24 hours? Perhaps somebody working at a Customs office can explain how things work for urgents parts - as they're blamed by Jetair for causing a delay to innocent pax.

JAFflyer · Post by **JAFflyer** » 04 Sep 2007, 12:08

LX-LGX you are making wild accusations and I would be very careful doing that.
When there is a plane found by the 50 international brokers looking for aircraft besides ourselves, JAF will take it. The price for a long haul aircraft is around a certain price that you can expect every time when looking for subservices. Last time we hired a 747-300 from Pullmantur and we could barely fill the aircraft to 50%, does that look like a money saving option?
When that aircraft comes available again, we'll take it again. Simple as that. At JAF, pax comfort IS taken into acount.

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 04 Sep 2007, 13:13

JAFflyer wrote:When there is a plane found by the 50 international brokers looking for aircraft besides ourselves, JAF will take it. The price for a long haul aircraft is around a certain price that you can expect every time when looking for subservices. Last time we hired a 747-300 from Pullmantur and we could barely fill the aircraft to 50%, does that look like a money saving option?

This is exactly my point: only money counts when tourists are stranded, and not the fact that they are blocked for almost 2 days now, including the 2 first schooldays for children.

Most pax have signed a contract with Jetair / TUI Belgium, so the Belgian travel law from 16th February 1994 applies: "Wet tot regeling van het contract tot reisorganisatie en reisbemiddeling" - "Loi régissant le contrat d'organisation de voyages et le contrat d'intermédiaire de voyages".

Article 17 from that law says that the touroperator must respect and fulfill this contract, and also that the client has to be realistic in his expectations. You have signed a firm contract to bring these pax home on Sunday at 21h35. Pax are supposed to accept a delay, but they are not supposed to assume you would only do this by Tuesday afternoon. As soon as you knew about the second delay of last the weekend (first delay being Friday evening / Saturday morning), you had to find a solution which indeed would have costed you a lot more then your earnings on these 217 pax. Even if that plane has more seats, crew, fuel consumption then your 763. Pullmantur's 743, one of the two grounded 744's from SAA, OO-SFW (today and tomorrow used as backup for HBA), 332 from bmi, whatever. But then, that's the risk of the travel business.

Article 18 of the Belgian travel law states that the touroperator is responsible for the damage, caused by his failure to fulfill his obligations. As Jetair / TUI Belgium also accepts the general conditions from the Geschillencommissie Reizen / Commission de Litige de Voyages, there is good news for the passengers: this Board is off-court, cheap and quite fast. It's not the first time that a complaint for moral and financial damage because of an extreme delay as been accepted there. I once read in a booklet from Karel De Meulemeester that a medical doctor was granted full indemnity for missing two days of expensive appointments after about a same delay.

But even then: the total cost of hotels & meals & indemnities are peanuts, compared to an invoice from a subcharter. So after all, don't worry: the financial damage for the company has been limited to a minimum.

burner737 · Post by **burner737** » 04 Sep 2007, 13:27

DaPoels wrote:Again, the famous Boeing 767 of Jetairfly has a problem.

The flight JAF103 departing from Brussels with destination Punta Cana and Puerto Plata has been cancelled.

The flight should have left Belgium this morning at 06:05.
First the flight was delayed by +/- 12 hours and set with departure-time at 18:00...I just checked biac.be and it seems flight has been cancelled.

Again, Jetair and TUI-Belgium are presented as not professional and incompetent !

I don't think the people of Jetair/TUI-Belgium are incompetent !
Have you ever tried to run an airline ?
I really think people should stop with this ! This is actually one of the only Belgian airlines who think about the steps they make.

Regards Tim

TUB001 · Post by **TUB001** » 04 Sep 2007, 13:35

LX-LGX wrote: This is exactly my point: only money counts when tourists are stranded, and not the fact that they are blocked for almost 2 days now, including the 2 first schooldays for children.

Sure... compare the JAF service/fleet/crews with other belgian airlines and say that once again!

Maybe you should go flying sometimes instead of spending your time bashing airlines and pulling out all your law articles on this forum.

You talk, you talk, you talk... you spend your time copying/pasting the Brussels Airport schedules, but you simply have no idea of what you're talking about, once again!!!

I don't know what your goal is, you maybe cry when an airline goes to the ground, but as soon as it is in the air, you do all your best to create negative (if at least they were real...) opinions about it.

burner737 · Post by **burner737** » 04 Sep 2007, 14:15

TUB001 is right !!!

The only thing I read here is Jetair and OO-TUC. I don't read stuff like a Brussels Airlines or a Martinair (for Thomas Cook) is stuck somewhere !!! I'm really getting sick of this. JAF is doing great !!! If you guys can do so much better; found yourself an airline and try it ... I wanna see how it's gonna work out but please stop with this behaviour.

Finding a solution is 1 but getting the solution is 2.

Regards Tim

Airbus330lover · Post by **Airbus330lover** » 04 Sep 2007, 14:27

burner737 wrote:TUB001 is right !!!

The only thing I read here is Jetair and OO-TUC. I don't read stuff like a Brussels Airlines or a Martinair (for Thomas Cook) is stuck somewhere !!! I'm really getting sick of this. JAF is doing great !!! If you guys can do so much better; found yourself an airline and try it ... I wanna see how it's gonna work out but please stop with this behaviour.

Finding a solution is 1 but getting the solution is 2.

Regards Tim

Normal... the subject is OO-TUC.

And for the problems with B air planes, use search option and you cant find a lot too..

No discrimination

letscruise · Post by **letscruise** » 04 Sep 2007, 14:31

To LX-LGX :

This is a forum made by, read and participated by many (mostly Belgian) aviation enthousiasts. If you are a maltreated passenger, please look up other forums and post your
dissatisfaction there with your article 17 and 18…., and please stop vent your gall on this forum.
Let's approach our few belgian airlines in a possitive way.....

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 04 Sep 2007, 15:23

TUB001 wrote:
LX-LGX wrote: This is exactly my point: only money counts when tourists are stranded, and not the fact that they are blocked for almost 2 days now, including the 2 first schooldays for children.
Sure... compare the JAF service/fleet/crews with other belgian airlines and say that once again! Maybe you should go flying sometimes instead of spending your time bashing airlines and pulling out all your law articles on this forum. You talk, you talk, you talk... you spend your time copying/pasting the Brussels Airport schedules, but you simply have no idea of what you're talking about, once again!!!

Thanks for the compliments. Seems you and some others really don't understand that running an airline implicates that there are contract obligations towards passengers who have to be respected. Passengers are as much part of the aviation business as you are. I've flown enough in my life to know things can go wrong. But then, not only the safety from the passengers but also their rights must be the the most important factors for decisions. And allow me: it wasn't.

So far, we've only heard excuses - and we'll hear them again in tonight's television news: "we've looked for other planes but we couldn't find one as it was high season, end of school holidays, safety first, etc. But you haven't told us what happened with the initial delay on Friday, with the second technical on Sunday. Jetair is blaming the extra delay on Customs, says Het Laatste Nieuws. So give us the details: which Customs service, and for how long, has withhold your exchange part?

I indeed post schedule information. But then, who's to blame, if JAF has changed ETA perhaps 20 times during the last 48 hours? This website and this topic is also visited by relatives from pax who, as we know from a pax on the previous Goose Bay technical, are not informed. Not about their actual situation, not about their rights. Therefore my replies. The fact that you dislike them, means that they might be useful to passengers.

letscruise wrote:To LX-LGX :

This is a forum made by, read and participated by many (mostly Belgian) aviation enthousiasts. If you are a maltreated passenger, please look up other forums and post your dissatisfaction there with your article 17 and 18…., and please stop vent your gall on this forum. Let's approach our few belgian airlines in a possitive way.....

So, when it all goes good, passengers have to say thank you - but if something goes wrong, we have to shut up? Allow me to disagree with that kind of nonsense. Like I've just said: shit happens, and when it happens, you don't have to shoot at the messenger. An airline has to take up responsability: fix the problem decently and respect the passengers's rights. And if they don't, I will indeed explain these rights. Because that is, after all, the best for Belgian aviation. Long term off course, for both.

BATAVIA · Post by **BATAVIA** » 04 Sep 2007, 17:43

Dear LX-LGX,

Obviously, (and for others, it's very clear too) you want to know every little detail re the delays of OO-TUC.
As being an insider, i can tell you the latest delay was due to costums at CUN, as the repair piece( a new starter) was flown in to CUN immediatly after the technical problem became obvious.
As being a Sunday, 1 person ( i repeat 1 costums officer)in CUN refused to give the OK for costums declaration, ending up in a major delay as TUI had to wait till monday morning local time to fix this issue.

I suggest to be more carefull with your comments and negative impressions, TUI is doing all it can to please our costumers and we are doing very well after more than3 years of operations and being the second biggest carrier in Belgium, and still growing.

If you are on this topic, just because of complaining and being negative...than better stop.....if you are here on this topic to give your own opinion, honest and freely...than continue...but stop blaming and being negative, ....you are welcome to join our dispatch team anyday if you have the qualifications...than at least you would realize TUI is doing it's utmost best to please every pax with a minimum of disturbance...unfortunatly, aviationlife is somethimes unpredictable....
That's why i am sure your aviation history is nil, you talk out of the blue and complain....which is your right as a passenger of course.

So, keep complaining about OO-TUC and other issues re Belgian aviation, that's what we are used from you....
Keep it up......

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 04 Sep 2007, 22:18

JAFflyer, JAF23, Batavia: stop insulting the messenger please. To say I have to shut up because you don’t want to talk about this problem or because you dislike my posts is far too easy to get away here. You are 3 different Jetairfly employees and you give us 3 different causes for this delay:

Batavia says they’ve immediately choosen for repair, not for replacement. Quote: “As being an insider, I can tell you the latest delay was due to customs at CUN, as the repair piece (a new starter) was flown in to CUN immediately after the technical problem became obvious.”

JAFflyer says they have first searched a replacement: Quote: “When there is a plane found by the 50 international brokers looking for aircraft besides ourselves, JAF will take it.” (The spokesman for TUI also said in HLN.be they've looked for a replacement).

JAF23 says it was weather related: Quote: “I've been told today that it isn't a technical problem, but the hurricanes and storms over there.”

- - -

I believe Batavia: the started was broken and JAF decided to repair the plane, so a new starter had to be flown in.

However Batavia, your story about Customs is untrue. Quote Batavia: “...the repair piece (a new starter) was flown in to CUN immediately after the technical problem became obvious. As being a Sunday, 1 person (I repeat 1 Customs officer) in CUN refused to give the OK for customs declaration, ending up in a major delay as TUI had to wait till Monday morning local time to fix this issue.”

I prefer facts above statements: plane left in BRU only on Saturday evening at 20h19: thus 01h19 Sunday morning Mexican time. Let’s add the flying time, some 13 hours (stop at MBJ incl): arrival at CUN was probably around 14h00, on Sunday. Then add time to get maintenance and/or engineers to localise the problem and to conclude the starter had to be replaced. Then add time to find and order the spare part. Then add the time for its transport to Cancun. Think it’s quite well Monday morning before the new starter arrives, wouldn’t you agree?

- - -

Also, it’s not because I don’t know how to replace a starter that I’m not allowed to discuss the consequences of it. On the other hand, it’s ashame that you don’t understand that aviation, and specially charters, is more then just planes: it’s flying around with people who have rights. It’s about time you accept this.

Darjeeling · Post by **Darjeeling** » 04 Sep 2007, 22:44

To LX-LGX:
You begin to bore us man.
Go and play somewhere else we don't need your stupidity here and certainly not that "I-Know-better-than-you-my-rights-I-am-entitled-to-demand-poor-aviation-worker" side.
I often read this forum and you are really telling crap after crap after crap...

TUB001 · Post by **TUB001** » 04 Sep 2007, 22:53

Darjeeling wrote:To LX-LGX:
You begin to bore us man.
Go and play somewhere else we don't need your stupidity here and certainly not that "I-Know-better-than-you-my-rights-I-am-entitled-to-demand-poor-aviation-worker" side.
I often read this forum and you are really telling crap after crap after crap...

I cannot agree more with you.

I am afraid this is gonna be another locked topic, where absolutely nothing interesting happened! This didn't contribute in any way to the goal of luchtzak...

Now LX-LGX, if you still don't understand that everybody here is NOT present to read your PASSENGER RIGHTS all the time, it is about time to switch to another kind of forum...

Sad and indeed boring.

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 04 Sep 2007, 23:34

Everybody has had the opportunity to state his opinion on the issue with OO-TUC. It's of no point to leave this topic open as the conversation is leading nowhere and as the personal attacks are not far away.

It's sad to see that grown up people with a lot of knowledge as you all certainly are (I'm not talking to one person in particular but to ALL involved) are not capable to lead a healthy and constructive conversation about the problems Jetairfly has been facing with OO-TUC. Be it weather related, technical related or whatever (I don't care). Everybody is entitled to have his opinion. Just respect ones opinion and critisize it in a constructive way to have a healthy discussion !!! That's the point of a forum not the other way around.

Think of it for the next topics which will pop up in the coming days/months.

Thanks for your understanding

Chris
:locked:

Aviation24.be

Again problems with Jetairfly's OO-TUC ?

Re: Again problems with Jetairfly's OO-TUC ?