Pilot shortage at Brussels Airlines ?

Pikey · Post by **Pikey** » 17 Aug 2007, 10:35

what is the reason for the late payment of the allowances?

Regards

flyavro · Post by **flyavro** » 17 Aug 2007, 10:38

i don't know, but I do have loans to the bank who need paying around right now.

but anyone more info on l'echo?

teddybAIR · Post by **teddybAIR** » 17 Aug 2007, 11:05

I have a few questions befor I can make further comments:

1. What is a normal ratio #crews/airplane for the different types of aircraft BA is operating?
I currently have no clue
2. What is that ratio for BA now, compared to the past?
Idem
3. What are the critical values for this ratio (read: from what point on are normal operations hampered)?
I Assume you need at least 3 in order to operate a plane at it's full capacity, but actually this is just a "guestimate"
4. At the current outflow of pilots: how long will it take before we reach that critical point?
5. What is the bottom line impact of crew shortage?
In terms of fincancials, image, operational,...
6. What can be done in the Short, Medium and Long Term?
- Short term: wet leasing material, investigate reason for churn behaviour, estimate parameters that drive churn, work out action plan to increase loyalty,..
- Medium term: implement action plan, ensure inflow of new pilots, attract experienced pilots, start-up of retention/loyalty programms, cross-company carreer planning,...
- Long term: assess action plan, fine-tune approach,...
7. What is the cost of loosing a pilot and having to start up the procedure to engage a replacing pilot?
I assume this costs a hell of a lot of money and that it can easily be avoided with higher wages.

Best regards,
Tom

Airbus330lover · Post by **Airbus330lover** » 17 Aug 2007, 11:11

teddybAIR wrote: I assume this costs a hell of a lot of money and that it can easily be avoided with higher wages.

You're right.
The différence between finding a new customer (or in this case pilot) and just mainain the current one is typically ratio 7/1.
But if you have no money..... no short term solution

flyavro · Post by **flyavro** » 17 Aug 2007, 11:18

I'll give the info for as much as I have it:

1. avro used to have a crew factor of 6 and now 4
for the airbus fleet (mixed) it still is 6

critical value differs as they are just making the schedules harder and heavier for those people who stay in the company. I must say that what we have now is stretching us to the breaking point fatigue wise or over.
We have about 300 avro pilots in total so with the number of pilots leaving...

wet leasing is a very short term option as it costs huge amounts of money and angers the pilots a lot as it removes any chances of an upgrade plus they don't like to see money thrown away like that.
another option they are implementing right now are contract pilots: another bad idea for the same reason as above. People don't like sitting in the same crewroom with pilots who do the same job for more than triple your salary.

type rating for an avro costs more than 1million belgian franks: 25000+ euro's: every copi leaving costs just that much, for every captain leaving you need to train a new copi and upgrade a copi to become captain. That's all true for an avro pilot leaving. For an airbus captain leaving it gets even more costly: Airbus FO: new avro FO and avro FO upgrade; Airbus captain: new avro Fo, Avro FO upgrade, Avro capt upgrade. Now the problem is also that they no longer have the FO's with the (company)required hours to become captain.

if you look at the amount of people leaving this year and the amount of trainings you can calculate the huge amounts of money already spent.

teddybAIR · Post by **teddybAIR** » 17 Aug 2007, 11:18

Well,

no short term solution =eventually no short term flights = less short term passengers = less short term revenues = the whole story starts over and over again = closing the books on...let's pick a date...november 6th

Air Key West · Post by **Air Key West** » 17 Aug 2007, 23:33

Would it be feasable for b.air to have their own flight academy maybe in the US like sfa ? And would it be conceivalbe that b.air pays for the training and type rating of the pilots trained at their school ? The young pilots would refund the "loan" by monthly payments once he gets a job with b.air (details to be worked out between management and pilots union).
It would give access to the profession to people who don't have the financial means to pay for the costly training but who have the capabilities (I don't care whether it's a son or daughter of a doctor or a plumber who is in the cockpit as long as he or she is qualified and does a good job)

FlightMate · Post by **FlightMate** » 18 Aug 2007, 08:38

A good partnership with a flight school is a very good solution, IMO.

It would be great to see a belgian airline pay again for pilots' initial training, even if fully reimbursed later on...
Back to the good old days!

It's maybe time to stop this non-sense of paying for your initial training + paying for you rating.

Corto · Post by **Corto** » 18 Aug 2007, 09:22

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
The significant problems we have cannot be solved at the same level of thinking with which we created them.
Albert Einstein

Air Key West · Post by **Air Key West** » 18 Aug 2007, 13:53

SO, how do you suggest to solve the problem, Corto ? Any constructive proposals ?

Corto · Post by **Corto** » 18 Aug 2007, 22:04

Think outside the box. I gave you a suggestion already: The point that has been reached is of no return, for politics, with its corruption, nepotism, clientelism etc... is meddling in every aspects of aviation, not to mention the rest of the Kingdom's life, and has spoilt it to the point that it is crumbling down. When a tree is rotten to that point, there is no other solution than to cut it at the root and start with a new seed. Up to the new generation to work it and grow it; I have passed the age for that now; did my share in 1968. As I see it, for the moment, one part of the new generation is ducking until it gets enough experience to expatriate, and the other part is whining on this forum.

Air Key West · Post by **Air Key West** » 18 Aug 2007, 23:08

Looks like you're very sour, Corto

Some of us did like Sabena, but I think we can all agree to say it was always badly run. So, we thought the rotten tree (to quote you, did you mean sabena ?) was cut and a new one was planted (snba). But is the new already rooten, too ? Could very well be. Only took five years.

Do you mean we should cut this tree, too ? And let Jet Airways plant a new one, since they need an partner airline in BRU. Or will b.air just continue to fly to destinations which interest 9W ? And cut the other destinations because of the pilot shortage. I'm only speculating about what might happen if nothing is done to make the job of airline pilot more attractive in Belgium.

Air Key West · Post by **Air Key West** » 18 Aug 2007, 23:24

Does anyone remember b.air annoucing a couple of months ago they were negotiating with the Mauritius government to set up an airline there ?
I'm not a financial or tax expert, but isn't Mauritius a kind of "tax haven" like the Seychelles, for instance ? Maybe I'm wrong. If not, if the project succeeds, will they delocalize b.air's pilots to Mauritius ? And hire them back from a Mauritian airline where they would be on the pay role ? Just speculating.

Corto · Post by **Corto** » 19 Aug 2007, 00:30

Air Key West wrote:Looks like you're very sour, Corto Some of us did like Sabena, but I think we can all agree to say it was always badly run. So, we thought the rotten tree (to quote you, did you mean sabena ?) was cut and a new one was planted (snba). But is the new already rooten, too ? Could very well be. Only took five years. Do you mean we should cut this tree, too ? And let Jet Airways plant a new one, since they need an partner airline in BRU. Or will b.air just continue to fly to destinations which interest 9W ? And cut the other destinations because of the pilot shortage. I'm only speculating about what might happen if nothing is done to make the job of airline pilot more attractive in Belgium.

I said, think OUTSIDE the box! Sabena, SNBA, B.air are only pieces of a dirty game that is far above pilots' thinking, it seems. The whole of aviation concept in Belgium is the rotten tree. As for de-localizing, it would be only a "plaster on a wooden leg".

Corto · Post by **Corto** » 19 Aug 2007, 00:31

BTW, no, I am not sour at all, I have had it all and enjoy it now.

Air Key West · Post by **Air Key West** » 19 Aug 2007, 15:09

Yes, you told me that already. OK, I think I'll agree with you that Belgians apparently are not able to run an airline.

dre · Post by **dre** » 19 Aug 2007, 15:31

Belgian political and economical climate is not good to run a belgian airline to say it bit different...

Corto · Post by **Corto** » 19 Aug 2007, 15:38

....that Belgians apparently are not able to run an airline.

Did not say that either! Mr. Dieu in his time was a very successfully entreprising Sabena president, but he was not politically chosen (he was a an unavoidable war hero), while his successors were.
Mr. Guttelman, Pommé, Lejeune were all outstanding airline entrepreneur and managers, however, the politicians, having little or no grip on them, had no choice but to elliminate them. Still today, the pressure that politicians put on airline manager is so strong that they discourage any entrpreneurial spirit in this domain. The shortage of pilots in B.Air is but a little part of the whole Belgian aviation problem. looking for solutions to just keep Belgian pilots in Belgium and/or motivating young people to start a flying career is firecrew management, or like Mr. Jacques Attali would put it (Although he was referring to): Economie de casino.

jan_olieslagers · Post by **jan_olieslagers** » 19 Aug 2007, 16:04

Air Key West wrote:OK, I think I'll agree with you that Belgians apparently are not able to run an airline.

((apologies if this touches on politics and history - unavoidable in this discussion))

Do not forget that Belgium is a 19th century construction and still breathes that era. Belgium was quite content to have a flag carrier for the sake of economy and national prestige and was quite happy to pay for it. No wonder startups like Pomair and the original D.A.T. never stood a chance: there was no place for them in the Brussels thinking. They had either to disappear or to be absorbed.

The state airline was run much like the state railways and the state radio and television and the state post office and what not: economic success was never a factor. Today all of these services are moving out into the free market, for example I'm afraid Belgian post office is facing very hard days.

Some people in Brussels simply don't understand that civil air transport has become a matter of free market, they don't understand Belgian people would fly other airlines than "THE BELGIAN FLAG CARRIER" neither can they imagine Belgian pilots preferring to earn their living abroad. As long as thick-heads of this kind control the Belgian flag carrier and Belgian law and tax regulations, there's no real progress possible, we'll just have to hop from one failure to the next. Sad, indeed.

So I cannot agree with you: it is not that there's no Belgians able to run an airline succesfully, it is Belgium as a country that is not ready for a 21st century flag carrier. Virgin Express was a nice try - why do you think Mr Branson sold out?

jan_olieslagers · Post by **jan_olieslagers** » 19 Aug 2007, 16:25

Air Key West wrote:So, we thought the rotten tree (to quote you, did you mean sabena ?) was cut and a new one was planted (snba). But is the new already rotten, too ?

The old one was dead, yes. So they took its clothes and put them on a new one, but they forgot (?) to shake the fleas of politics out of them... So the new one was doomed from its beginning, indeed.