My interpretation of the regulation is that they had to provide a hotel for those passengers. It would be up to them to try to book them a flight with another carrier, which might be cheaper for them than a hotel for the weekend.stefanel wrote:thanks for your time.
Since I'm no lawyer, could you make it clear what Ryanair should have done for instance in that case (offer meals + hotels + flights with another carrier etc?).
I would really like to know what they *had* to do to fully respect the legislation.
Where should the passengers complain, which organization is liable for the breaks to this law ?
Thanks,
Pisa-Charleroi: Ryanair drops 200 pax
Moderator: Latest news team
I agree with earthman, and I even think Ryanair had more obligations. I’m not a lawyer neither, but 261/2004 is very cleary: by selling tickets, no matter at what price, an airline has obligations which must be respected and which cannot be waived by telling people in advance their rights are reduced if something uneforeseen happens.stefanel wrote:Since I'm no lawyer, could you make it clear what Ryanair should have done for instance in that case (offer meals + hotels + flights with another carrier etc?). I would really like to know what they *had* to do to fully respect the legislation. Where should the passengers complain, which organization is liable for the breaks to this law ?
Ryanair has cancelled a flight due to temporary bad weather. These are not “extraordinary circumstances” in aviation: it happens regularly. It was not a snow storm that would block off the airport for days, it was not a hurricane, ...
If an airline cancels a flight and this cancellation is not caused by extraordinary circumstances, there are several Articles from 261/2004 who apply. The most important for the pax are:
Art 5(2): When passengers are informed of the cancellation, an explanation shall be given concerning possible alternative transport.
Art. 8 : pax had the choice between refund or rebooking: a return flight to the first point of departure, at the earliest opportunity; re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at the earliest opportunity; or re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at a later date at the passenger's convenience, subject to availability of seats.
This indeed means that it is the passengers' right to decide what will happen: refund or rebooking. If the passenger decides he want to fly home (from Pisa to Charleroi), Ryanair has to arrange this.
Art. 9(1)(a) 1: free of charge meals and refreshments in a reasonable relation to the waiting time.
Art. 9(2) hotel accommodation in cases where a stay of one or more nights becomes necessary.
Art. 7 : 250 euro compensation (flight of 1.500 kms or less)
- - -
Every EU Member state had to install an National Enforcement Body to deal with complaints. This is the list (could be there have been a small update):
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/air_porta ... ies_en.pdf
Hello,
As a last year law student, I made some research on this topic.
- First of all bad weather is indeed considered as extraordinary circonstances by a large part of the doctrine. You don't need to have a thunderstorm. When the plane cannot land/take off because of weather, even if it is for an hour it is exeptional circonstances.
Law is not an exact science. There will never be only one truth. The only truth about particulary cases will be given by the various courts. Therefore it is possible that for a particular case the same 'extreme weather' will not be considered as an extraordinary circonstances because others factor will be taken into consideration.
- About the right of assistance for the consumer when there is such extraordinary cicronstances.
The regulation is not clear at all. It is pointless to quote forever the text as the european legislator has (again and again) produce a text that is lacking of details. That is why lots of interpretation has been going on.
However, the European Court of Justice has been asked to give an interpretation of the regulation for a conflict between the Low fare association and the British department of transport (cf Case C-344/04).
In this case the low fare association were claiming that the regulation exluded any assistance in case of a 'force majeure'.
The court has not followed their conclusion, and stated that even in case of exeptional circonstances assistance must be given.
As a last year law student, I made some research on this topic.
- First of all bad weather is indeed considered as extraordinary circonstances by a large part of the doctrine. You don't need to have a thunderstorm. When the plane cannot land/take off because of weather, even if it is for an hour it is exeptional circonstances.
Law is not an exact science. There will never be only one truth. The only truth about particulary cases will be given by the various courts. Therefore it is possible that for a particular case the same 'extreme weather' will not be considered as an extraordinary circonstances because others factor will be taken into consideration.
- About the right of assistance for the consumer when there is such extraordinary cicronstances.
The regulation is not clear at all. It is pointless to quote forever the text as the european legislator has (again and again) produce a text that is lacking of details. That is why lots of interpretation has been going on.
However, the European Court of Justice has been asked to give an interpretation of the regulation for a conflict between the Low fare association and the British department of transport (cf Case C-344/04).
In this case the low fare association were claiming that the regulation exluded any assistance in case of a 'force majeure'.
The court has not followed their conclusion, and stated that even in case of exeptional circonstances assistance must be given.
to airazurxtror:
First of all you did not read my reply. You are generalising. I was talking about 1 case of elderly people and you suddenly take the freedom to call them a crying child.
Secondly their children had taken care of the booking . But the parents were not exprienced travellers. And oops, it went wrong. Those childish elderly peopl suddenly found hemselve sin a foreign country of which they don't speak the language and where nobody gives them any assistance.
You are completely out of line referring towards O'Learry statements - which are often completely out of line as well , reacting childishly on european legislation. What did those elderly people know about a certain O'Learry?
I also take the freedom to say how I think about you: you are one of those guys who pushes ahead to get that so fantastic emergency exit seat, and feel great about it.
Or... you are an employee of O'Learry. Enjoy it for now, don't complain within some years when you get sick or old.
First of all you did not read my reply. You are generalising. I was talking about 1 case of elderly people and you suddenly take the freedom to call them a crying child.
Secondly their children had taken care of the booking . But the parents were not exprienced travellers. And oops, it went wrong. Those childish elderly peopl suddenly found hemselve sin a foreign country of which they don't speak the language and where nobody gives them any assistance.
You are completely out of line referring towards O'Learry statements - which are often completely out of line as well , reacting childishly on european legislation. What did those elderly people know about a certain O'Learry?
I also take the freedom to say how I think about you: you are one of those guys who pushes ahead to get that so fantastic emergency exit seat, and feel great about it.
Or... you are an employee of O'Learry. Enjoy it for now, don't complain within some years when you get sick or old.
and besides of your so called record: I can give you a list of companies where it it is absolutely forbidden to ever ever use Ryanair - even for private use when it could effect attendance on business meetings. Oh. (Sorry boss that I am too late on Monday morning but my Ryanair flight from Milan was delayed - is not acceptable)
Ryanair is used a lot by small companies and self employed people - as I am.
But even for me it became an absolute no go area for business use.
Ryanair is used a lot by small companies and self employed people - as I am.
But even for me it became an absolute no go area for business use.
-
airazurxtror
- Posts: 3769
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 00:00
My own person is of no importance to most people on this site, and I don't want to go at lenght about it. However, as I am personnally adressed to, I will say, very shortly :regi wrote:to airazurxtror:
First of all you did not read my reply. You are generalising. I was talking about 1 case of elderly people and you suddenly take the freedom to call them a crying child.
You are completely out of line referring towards O'Learry statements - which are often completely out of line as well , reacting childishly on european legislation. What did those elderly people know about a certain O'Learry?
I also take the freedom to say how I think about you: you are one of those guys who pushes ahead to get that so fantastic emergency exit seat, and feel great about it.
Or... you are an employee of O'Learry. Enjoy it for now, don't complain within some years when you get sick or old.
- I am myself 65+ and I resent people of such age being spoken of as "helpless".
- I don't push ahead to grab a good seat : I pay 3 euros more per flight to webcheck and get a priority boarding pass;
- I am no employee of MOL; I am most grateful to him for providing cheap flights, so that I can enjoy frequent flights all year round. I certainly won't do anything to hamper Ryanair.
- You are perhaps employee of a high-fare airline; I understand that, for you, Ryanair is most annoying ....
???regi wrote:when it could effect attendance on business meetings. Oh. (Sorry boss that I am too late on Monday morning but my Ryanair flight from Milan was delayed - is not acceptable)
Personnal experience, if I want to be on time, I am taking Ryanair, for sure
I experiment a lot number of times where Ryanair was on time whereas all the legacy carriers were delayed
Could you give us some examples of compagny that prohibit to take Ryanair in order not to be late at meetings pls, it would be interesting to know
Law is not an exact science, but the 3 criterias attached to force majeure has been defined by the jurisprudence and clearly, there is NO possible doubt than a storm is a valid case of force majeure
As said a person before, regardless the price (which is a very bad argument), a storm is a force majeure, so no obligation to refund, that's it
Finally, I had a cancelation due to weather condition with Air France: no refund
I was in a ryanair flight cancel for operational reasons, my hotel has been refund in the following 3 weeks by Ryanair...
Maybe I was lucky, but for me, this post is again a Ryanair bashing without any valid argument as a storm have always been a force majeure
False, even when there is a force majeure there is the obligation from the airline the reimburse the ticket + assistance. See my previous post, and see the European Court of justice judgment C-344/04.As said a person before, regardless the price (which is a very bad argument), a storm is a force majeure, so no obligation to refund, that's it
Others circonstances as the force majeure itself (ie. a bad weather, technical problem) can cause the force majeure to be neutralised. The airline has an obligation of result, therefore a small mistakes from them can neutralise the force majeure.Law is not an exact science, but the 3 criterias attached to force majeure has been defined by the jurisprudence and clearly, there is NO possible doubt than a storm is a valid case of force majeure
“Extraordinary circumstances" is wrongly used in many posts here.
1.EU-Legislation 261/2004 has specified what it is. Regarding to the weather, 261/2004 also says: “… impact of an air traffic management decision in relation to a particular aircraft on a particular day gives rise to a long delay, an overnight delay, or the cancellation of one or more flights by that aircraft”. Somebody said that even a one hour delay is extraordinary circumstances. It is not.
2. sorry I have to repeat this: the EU-Legislation 261/2004 is a Consumer Protection Law, and it has to been interpreted as such. “Limited or excluded” must be seen in that regard, and not as an argument for carriers to avoid responsibility when there are extraordinary circumstances. Example: a birdstrike during take off is “extraordinary circumstances”. If this causes a one night delay, “limited” means the airline will have to pay for accommodation and meals, and “exluded" means the airline doesn’t have to pay compensation (the famous 250 to 600 euro). This is the spirit of 261/2004.
- - -
Vueling, trust you like this additional and quite recent study material:
http://register.consilium.europa.eu/ser ... E_DOCUMENT
http://register.consilium.europa.eu/pdf ... 8.en07.pdf
1.EU-Legislation 261/2004 has specified what it is. Regarding to the weather, 261/2004 also says: “… impact of an air traffic management decision in relation to a particular aircraft on a particular day gives rise to a long delay, an overnight delay, or the cancellation of one or more flights by that aircraft”. Somebody said that even a one hour delay is extraordinary circumstances. It is not.
2. sorry I have to repeat this: the EU-Legislation 261/2004 is a Consumer Protection Law, and it has to been interpreted as such. “Limited or excluded” must be seen in that regard, and not as an argument for carriers to avoid responsibility when there are extraordinary circumstances. Example: a birdstrike during take off is “extraordinary circumstances”. If this causes a one night delay, “limited” means the airline will have to pay for accommodation and meals, and “exluded" means the airline doesn’t have to pay compensation (the famous 250 to 600 euro). This is the spirit of 261/2004.
- - -
Vueling, trust you like this additional and quite recent study material:
http://register.consilium.europa.eu/ser ... E_DOCUMENT
http://register.consilium.europa.eu/pdf ... 8.en07.pdf
Ryanair refunds cancelled flights even when it's CFM. They have to.lcc wrote:???regi wrote:when it could effect attendance on business meetings. Oh. (Sorry boss that I am too late on Monday morning but my Ryanair flight from Milan was delayed - is not acceptable)
Personnal experience, if I want to be on time, I am taking Ryanair, for sure
I experiment a lot number of times where Ryanair was on time whereas all the legacy carriers were delayed
Could you give us some examples of compagny that prohibit to take Ryanair in order not to be late at meetings pls, it would be interesting to know
Law is not an exact science, but the 3 criterias attached to force majeure has been defined by the jurisprudence and clearly, there is NO possible doubt than a storm is a valid case of force majeure
As said a person before, regardless the price (which is a very bad argument), a storm is a force majeure, so no obligation to refund, that's it
Finally, I had a cancelation due to weather condition with Air France: no refund
I was in a ryanair flight cancel for operational reasons, my hotel has been refund in the following 3 weeks by Ryanair...
Maybe I was lucky, but for me, this post is again a Ryanair bashing without any valid argument as a storm have always been a force majeure
I am sure of this, and in this case, the passengers were offered the refund as well.
What a mess!
It's simple really: Ryanair has one of the best business models I've ever seen: everything is consistently geared towards the same goal and that is offering cheap flights. That consistency makes it easy for customers to make their choice: I want a cheap flight, so I book Ryanair. Nevertheless, the cheapness comes at a price: less service. I think even ryanair doesn't keep this a secret! So far for the facts.
Now, first of all, I do not agree with the Ryanair practices but come on, what do you expect really? It doesn't take rocket science to calculate that at their average rates (the spokesman mentionned €40) you cannot offer the same service. Let's dig a little deeper with that average rate of € 40
Income
Max. passengers: 189
Average fare: €40
Max. total income: €7560
I'm not an expert (i've never flown Ryanair, so I don't know how many flight attendants are on board) in the field, but a few assumptions and a small estimation of the cost learns me that there is not much room left for after sales service. I mean:
- you need at least 2 pilots and 3 (maybe 4) flight attendants;
- the ground crew that fuels the plane needs to be paid as well (probably outsourced);
- a significant amount goes to the fuel itself;
- I presume they pay landing taxes in a few airports as well;
- the planes need to be insured for risks;
- the planes need to be maintained;
- a small one: planes need to be bought.
- and probably an insignificant amount goes to overhead costs.
I'm not gonna amuse myself in estimating all the different costs here above (others on this website are better placed to do so and I would only harvest critisism if I am a few cents of the mark), so I invit others to do so. But one thing is pretty clear to me: I'm not expecting a lot of service from this company.
My conclusion about Ryanair:
Although it seems there are good opportunities to fly at cheap rates, I'll never fly them. Main reason is that I use airlines to bring me to my holiday destinations and my holidays are a great deal to me (having only 25 days per year). Therefore, I am willing to pay the price premium for a full fledged airline in order to minimize the risk of being dumped and screw my days off: holidays are just to important for me to be stuck in a deserted airport while some CEO is on average €7560 richer per flight he dumps
My advice to the people who criticise Ryanair: be at least as consistent as them and act with your feet, as you do with your mouth...for those who are happy to fly Ryanair: I am truly happy for you and hope you will never encounter such experiences. If you can fly Ryanair for whole your life without encountering such problems, I'm willing to accept my bad. Nevertheless, I can honestly say that I regularly fly full fledged airlines and am happy with the service I'm getting. Therefore, I can say that you will never see me on a Ryanair flight.
I wish you all great holidays and a track record of Ryanair flights without negative experiences
It's simple really: Ryanair has one of the best business models I've ever seen: everything is consistently geared towards the same goal and that is offering cheap flights. That consistency makes it easy for customers to make their choice: I want a cheap flight, so I book Ryanair. Nevertheless, the cheapness comes at a price: less service. I think even ryanair doesn't keep this a secret! So far for the facts.
Now, first of all, I do not agree with the Ryanair practices but come on, what do you expect really? It doesn't take rocket science to calculate that at their average rates (the spokesman mentionned €40) you cannot offer the same service. Let's dig a little deeper with that average rate of € 40
Income
Max. passengers: 189
Average fare: €40
Max. total income: €7560
I'm not an expert (i've never flown Ryanair, so I don't know how many flight attendants are on board) in the field, but a few assumptions and a small estimation of the cost learns me that there is not much room left for after sales service. I mean:
- you need at least 2 pilots and 3 (maybe 4) flight attendants;
- the ground crew that fuels the plane needs to be paid as well (probably outsourced);
- a significant amount goes to the fuel itself;
- I presume they pay landing taxes in a few airports as well;
- the planes need to be insured for risks;
- the planes need to be maintained;
- a small one: planes need to be bought.
- and probably an insignificant amount goes to overhead costs.
I'm not gonna amuse myself in estimating all the different costs here above (others on this website are better placed to do so and I would only harvest critisism if I am a few cents of the mark), so I invit others to do so. But one thing is pretty clear to me: I'm not expecting a lot of service from this company.
My conclusion about Ryanair:
Although it seems there are good opportunities to fly at cheap rates, I'll never fly them. Main reason is that I use airlines to bring me to my holiday destinations and my holidays are a great deal to me (having only 25 days per year). Therefore, I am willing to pay the price premium for a full fledged airline in order to minimize the risk of being dumped and screw my days off: holidays are just to important for me to be stuck in a deserted airport while some CEO is on average €7560 richer per flight he dumps
My advice to the people who criticise Ryanair: be at least as consistent as them and act with your feet, as you do with your mouth...for those who are happy to fly Ryanair: I am truly happy for you and hope you will never encounter such experiences. If you can fly Ryanair for whole your life without encountering such problems, I'm willing to accept my bad. Nevertheless, I can honestly say that I regularly fly full fledged airlines and am happy with the service I'm getting. Therefore, I can say that you will never see me on a Ryanair flight.
I wish you all great holidays and a track record of Ryanair flights without negative experiences
Stefanel, that's not the point: 261/2004 says the passengers had the right to choose between rerouting or refund. But the pax were not allowed to choose last Friday: Ryanair simply told them the solution was a refund (or a flight on Monday, but no expenses would be paid).stefanel wrote:Ryanair refunds cancelled flights even when it's CFM. They have to. I am sure of this, and in this case, the passengers were offered the refund as well.
There is also a problem with written language.
When I rad my own replies, I hardly recognise my own words. I give the impression to be against Ryanair. Which is not true. I do like the way Ryanair has shaken up the air transportation world.
My own conclusion was that I would not use Ryanair again for a business related trip. But for private use I have no problem.
What the names of the companies concerns, I refuse to. I can give some examples you have to check yourself ( because they are eacht time the biggest company in that community there is no problem to find their names):
When I rad my own replies, I hardly recognise my own words. I give the impression to be against Ryanair. Which is not true. I do like the way Ryanair has shaken up the air transportation world.
My own conclusion was that I would not use Ryanair again for a business related trip. But for private use I have no problem.
What the names of the companies concerns, I refuse to. I can give some examples you have to check yourself ( because they are eacht time the biggest company in that community there is no problem to find their names):
- a 2,000 + employee company in the Antwerp neighbourhood - Wilrijk to be precisely..
a 2,000 + employee company in Charleroi, Gosselies to be precisely.
a 1,000 + company in Ieper
a 1,000 + company in Edegem.
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ERICAIRLINES
- Posts: 154
- Joined: 16 Nov 2003, 00:00
Ask him to send a mail with details to the National Enforcement Body from the country were he bought his ticket (if he has booked it through the net, from Belgium, it's the NEB from Belgium , not Ireland):ERICAIRLINES wrote:recently a friend was grounded in Roma with FR and he never had any choice at all..neither a refund or a FR rerouting..he had to buy a new ticket on AZ (very expensive),to change of aiports,and to spend one night in Roma..a 2 stars hotel for ...185 euros !!
He will never more travel with FR...
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/air_porta ... ies_en.pdf
About the choice between rerouting or refund:
What do you expect?! The airline is a commercial organisation, they will always force you towards the solution which is financially (be it in the short or long term) most interesting for them. A company with a short term vision will choose for the option which costs less in this fiscal year. A company with a long term vision will choose for the option which renders you in a loyal (read: "profitable") customer.
What you need to know is that you don't have to accept the solution they propose you. When Ryanair refunds you, and you want a rerouting, you simply don't accept the solution and you demand a rerouting. It is as simple as that. From that moment on, it is about bargaining positions. And I wouldn't want to be in your shoes when you have to fight Ryanair in this discussion.
I had the experience with Austrian Airlines and they proposed a refund. Now, if I had accepted, I would have lost all my rights to demand a rerouting or any other compensation. Thus, I did not accept and clearly stated I know a thing or two about my rights as a passenger. Well, guess what: I got what I wanted and was rerouted immediately: I even arrived earlier at my destination as I was transferred to a direct flight from Brussels to Prague instead of going over Vienna
What do you expect?! The airline is a commercial organisation, they will always force you towards the solution which is financially (be it in the short or long term) most interesting for them. A company with a short term vision will choose for the option which costs less in this fiscal year. A company with a long term vision will choose for the option which renders you in a loyal (read: "profitable") customer.
What you need to know is that you don't have to accept the solution they propose you. When Ryanair refunds you, and you want a rerouting, you simply don't accept the solution and you demand a rerouting. It is as simple as that. From that moment on, it is about bargaining positions. And I wouldn't want to be in your shoes when you have to fight Ryanair in this discussion.
I had the experience with Austrian Airlines and they proposed a refund. Now, if I had accepted, I would have lost all my rights to demand a rerouting or any other compensation. Thus, I did not accept and clearly stated I know a thing or two about my rights as a passenger. Well, guess what: I got what I wanted and was rerouted immediately: I even arrived earlier at my destination as I was transferred to a direct flight from Brussels to Prague instead of going over Vienna
One more piece of advice:
If you are in conflict with an airline (or any other party), don't depend on that airline to give you the most reliable information about your rights. Go to another airline's (preferably even another alliance, but I don't think it will make that big of a difference) information desk and ask for the folder with your passenger rights there...they'll give it to you with great pleasure: you are a prospect.
Summary: you are way short in bargaining power compared to a multi-billion airline, so don't be intimidated and use your limited bargaining power to the max! Go to the matrasses!
If you are in conflict with an airline (or any other party), don't depend on that airline to give you the most reliable information about your rights. Go to another airline's (preferably even another alliance, but I don't think it will make that big of a difference) information desk and ask for the folder with your passenger rights there...they'll give it to you with great pleasure: you are a prospect.
Summary: you are way short in bargaining power compared to a multi-billion airline, so don't be intimidated and use your limited bargaining power to the max! Go to the matrasses!
teddybAir,
Art. 15(2) of the EU-Regulation says what you can do if the airline has given you wrong information, or has forced you to accept something under pressure:
Article 15: Exclusion of waiver
1. Obligations vis-à-vis passengers pursuant to this Regulation may not be limited or waived, notably by a derogation or restrictive clause in the contract of carriage.
2. If, nevertheless, such a derogation or restrictive clause is applied in respect of a passenger, or if the passenger is not correctly informed of his rights and for that reason has accepted compensation which is inferior to that provided for in this Regulation, the passenger shall still be entitled to take the necessary proceedings before the competent courts or bodies in order to obtain additional compensation.
Art. 15(2) of the EU-Regulation says what you can do if the airline has given you wrong information, or has forced you to accept something under pressure:
Article 15: Exclusion of waiver
1. Obligations vis-à-vis passengers pursuant to this Regulation may not be limited or waived, notably by a derogation or restrictive clause in the contract of carriage.
2. If, nevertheless, such a derogation or restrictive clause is applied in respect of a passenger, or if the passenger is not correctly informed of his rights and for that reason has accepted compensation which is inferior to that provided for in this Regulation, the passenger shall still be entitled to take the necessary proceedings before the competent courts or bodies in order to obtain additional compensation.